2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Yeah I've been so bad at this... I started listening to the audio books, rather than re-reading. I didn't expect to find them so engrossing, and am now on book 7 Ahem.

One thing which caught my eye was the question about Cairhien and the water and so on. I don't think it's specifically mentioned as being Cairhien in the flashback - just roughly where they are. Cairhien probably didn't exist back then. There's some mention made at some point (I can't remember where or when, sorry) that the Aiel spent generations searching for the descendants of those original water-sharers. There isn't really much detail given as to how they deduced that those people were Cairhienin (I think my spelling is a bit off there, sorry!)

Also (spoiler for end of the book, in reply to Ryu and Cold regarding Moiraine)

Spoiler

Later on when Elayne and Nynaeve learn how make themselves invisible (a weave of Air which bends light, or something like that), it's mentioned that Moiraine knew how to do this. So I wonder if that was part of how Moiraine got into the Stone unseen).

I wonder if Balefire was something which Moiraine learned in all her researching when she scooted off to see Vandene and Adeleas?

 

[Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Eala I have the same problem. I stopped listening for a few weeks because I got too far ahead. Now I'm working on catching back up. I'm in chapter 40 something at this point, so I'm almost there.

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Chapter 42

• Ogiers left Illian about the same time Brend/Sam came in. Did they sense him?
• What exactly was Moiraine off to do?

Chapter 44

• What vows keep Aes Sedai from using balefire? Do individual Aes Sedai take those oaths, or are they leftover from the War of Whatever where they called the ban on balefire?
• How the hell did Moiraine discover how to make balefire?

I have some thoughts on these points, Mother.

I think the Ogier left because Sammael started creating such an angry vibe in the city; they surely sensed that, but I don't see them sensing Sammael himself.

I imagine Moiraine was off contacting her other eyes-and-ears; since Nieda seems to be one of her "agents" I would presume she established others in the city. My only other guess was that she sensed Shadowspawn in the city (since Darkhounds were there, although I don't think she can distinguish what kind of Shadowspawn just by sensing them), and went to investigate that.

As far as balefire, there's no way Moiraine ever took a vow/oath not to use Balefire. If she swore to never use balefire under any circumstances, wouldn't the First Oath make it impossible for her to then use balefire? Not really sure how the First Oath affects things like that though... I think all Aes Sedai are just aware of the fact that balefire almost completely destroyed the Pattern in the past, so the majority of them think that there is never anything worth the risk of using it, not even to save their own life.

As for Moiraine learning balefire. We can be reasonably certain she didn't know how to use balefire at the end of The Eye of the World, or she would've used it against Aginor and Balthamel. My assumption about this has always been that she learned it while with Vandene and Adeleas; either one of them taught it to her, or she learned how to make it from one of the books there. Although, can an Aes Sedai learn a weave just by reading about it, even if it's really specific?


Edit: Ealandrelle Sedai, that's a great deduction; Lanfear is presumed to use this to hide the group in The Great Hunt, in the Illuminators Chapterhouse. I see you made the same point about Vandene and Adeleas as I did, your reply came up while I was typing mine, I didn't steal your idea .

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Yes, I think that Faile believes in all the tales, she just didn't excpect to encounter them this far south...

As for Moiraine and balefire, I normally just use the old argument "Moiraine is awesome and knows stuff she needs to know" Which is somewhat lacking, but Moiraine is being set up as a bit more than a normal Aes Sedai, and thus she knows stuff *nod*
But I think that her learning about it from the books and Adealas and Vandene is a reasonable assumption, and then she probably figured out the specifics on her own. After all, Nynaeve did

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Moiraine can sense Shadowspawn, normally, but Sam put some kind of weave over the Darkhounds to keep her and Lan from sensing them. Lan comments on it.

It's possible Moiraine "re-invented" balefire in a moment of need. As you said, Nynaeve does, and Rand does (hell, that's the only way Rand learns anything), and the Wonder Girls do.

 

[Ryu Shadowborn]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

I wonder if Balefire was something which Moiraine learned in all her researching when she scooted off to see Vandene and Adeleas?

Couldn't have, she knew it in book one (used it in the ways)

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Couldn't have, she knew it in book one (used it in the ways)

I've seen this assertion before, and I strongly disagree. This instance reads as just really hot fire, not balefire. She also uses her staff as a focus for her fire, but the weave for balefire is crafted with one (or both) hands facing the target.

Also, when Moiraine uses it against the Darkhounds, Perrin is stunned by it; it's clearly something he hasn't seen from her before.
"I thought she'd throw fire at them, or call lightning, but this.... "What was that?" he asked hoarsely."

 

[Ryu Shadowborn]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

I've seen this assertion before, and I strongly disagree. This instance reads as just really hot fire, not balefire. She also uses her staff as a focus for her fire, but the weave for balefire is crafted with one (or both) hands facing the target.

Also, when Moiraine uses it against the Darkhounds, Perrin is stunned by it; it's clearly something he hasn't seen from her before.
"I thought she'd throw fire at them, or call lightning, but this.... "What was that?" he asked hoarsely."

I don't think Perrin was really paying attention to what was going on then, and if I recall properly the phrasing in book 1 refers to a "bar of fire" and balefire is usually a "Bar" shape.

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Chapter 45

• When the cat is on the table when Thom and Gill are playing stones, I kept expecting it to flop down on the stones board.
• Why does Gill keep playing stones? He's abysmal at it. (He lost a lot to Loial in EotW. )

Chapter 46

• Mat truly didn't believe Rand's story about meeing Elayne.
• Interesting: They don't have giant sunflowers in the Two Rivers.
• Which boy was Rahvin referring to -- Mat or Rand? I'm assuming Mat, since Rahvin's keeping track of the girls in the Tower.
• Who's the man Rahvin sent after EEN? Do we see him again?
• Tallanvor!
• I think the flower in Mat's hair is cute.
• Does Tallanvor suspect Mat of lying about being a loyal Andorman when Mat mentions that he follows Gaebril? Or do people outside the Palace even see the effect Gaebril has on Morgase?
• Morgase knows Mat's lying about where he's from -- his accent isn't right for 'north of Baerlon.' But Gaebril/Rahvin doesn't know.

Chapter 47

• Tallanvor thinks Morgase was trying to get a coded message out. Was she?
• Interesting: Gaebril/Rahvin is dark skinned (he's referred to as the dark man in chapter 46), and he's supposedly from the west, as are the Two Rivers folk. I've seen speculation and artwork on Tumblr that have the Two Rivers folk as dark skinned (which might help explain why Rand has never seen anyone colored like him till he leaves the Two Rivers). G/R being dark skinned helps support this theory, I think.
• Do all the Forsaken affect dreams? Sam in Illian does, and Rahvin in Caemlyn does, just with their presence. Is this true of all Forsaken?

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

I think it is mentioned somewhere that Forsaken affect dreams because they can't be bothered to block it

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Moiraine says that channelers who are particularly strong in Spirit can force their dreams on the people around them. As Aduiavas Sedai says, there is also a comment in Illian or Tear by Moiraine that whichever Forsaken is there obviously doesn't bother to block their dreams. Which is weird, considering how paranoid and suspicious the Forsaken are, you'd think they would make absolutely sure the other Forsaken couldn't spy on their dreams. The only reason I can think of for them not blocking their dreams is that maybe the Dark One doesn't want them to block their dreams, so he can communicate with them via dreams.

I can't remember any instances of the other Forsaken forcing their dreams on others. Although Rand forces dreams of Callandor on the people in the Dragon Reborn Camp in the beginning of this book (he is apparently particularly strong in Spirit).

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Hm, I must have missed Moiraine's comment that Sam didn't bother to block his dreams. Maybe it's coming up in Tear.

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Yes Mother, I just looked into it, and that comment is in the chapter 'A Flow of Spirit'. My mistake, for some reason I thought it was in discussion of Sammael.

Spoiler

"You see," Moiraine said. "I have heard this dream spoken of a hundred times today. They all speak of nightmares - Be'lal apparently does not care to shield his dreams - but that one above all else."

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Cool -- so it's coming up! I love questions that can be definitively answered.

Also: It's amazing how quickly the male Forsaken stepped in to start taking over. Rahvin in Andor, Sammael in Illian, Be'lal in Tear, Demandred over in Shara (well, there's actually no way to know when he actually took over there, given the Forsaken can use Compulsion to make people love them and believe everything they say and so it takes practically no time to actually take over a country). Semirage is in Seanchan, right? Graendel, Moggy, and Lanfear are all playing in the shadows and at the edges of things for a while. Oh, and Asmodean. Where does he start out?

 

[Ryu Shadowborn]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Asmodean is hiding somewhere, I don't think we ever get the "Hole he had crawled in" as Lanfear put it.

But if I had to guess it was Caihraien, or Ebou Dar, since those are the major nations that are "left over" for someone to Hide in or conquer.

 

[Imzadi Hopewind]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Or up in the mountains? :shifty

 

[Ryu Shadowborn]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Or up in the mountains? :shifty

But Asmodean is a bard...hiding up in the mountains is not very Bard like.

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Yeah, I'd see him somewhere he could play and be appreciated, which requires people, usually rich people.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Yeah, I don't see Asmodean as the "take over a country" kind of guy... He is more in the shadows, which is why Lanfear could use him...

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 44-50

Yes, we certainly know that Asmodean isn't particularly ambitious, especially for a Forsaken. He also seems to avoid danger and confrontation to the same degree as Moghedien.

I always pictured Asmodean having a setup like Graendal. He's got some nice manor/small palace somewhere, and he's found some of the best musicians of the Age and put them under heavy Compulsion. So he sits around trying to compose some epic piece, and live up to the potential he apparently had as a young composer in the Age of Legends.