2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,070
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    TDR: 51

    See situations like this is why Siuan is a terrible terrible leader for advocating her underlings to actively avoid learning how to use a sword, Imagine how differently things would have gone if instead of those two punches that Nyneave got off before Liandrin and Rianna started to torture her with weaves of air, were instead two knife wounds, or two sword slashes or two smacks with a heavy club, or maybe you Knock one out and get lucky and the Black Sisters were being arrogant little twits and did not tie off the weaves on Mother Guenna's bonds, would have made for a real quick rescue if Liandrin took an Iron Skillet to the back of the Skull, and a Very Poed Nyneave would be unblocked, and have a surprised group of Black Sisters to take down.

    It would not have had a good effect on White Tower PR in Tear, because I am certain the women holding Egwene and Elayne would get their daily dose of balefire.

    TDR: 52

    Mat meets Mother Guenna, I love how Mat reminds older women of their dead relatives, Siuan and Guenna both mention a dead loved one, who has the exact same style as Mat. Also of note, Thom is sick, which removes him from action for the book unfortunately, we also have the first mention of the Dice in Mat's head, at least I think this is the first instance.

    TDR: 53

    Moraine is straight up evil here, I understand that Rand is important and that all falls if he loses but one of the most oft argued things in High Fantasy is the exact definition of Lawful Good, and Moraine's actions here fully show one of the things that is argued about. Moraine is fighting against evil, and has a goal of saving the world.

    However she fully ignores the Faile who is in direct need of help right in front of her, and does nothing to give Perin any information on what is happening, spending more time arguing with the Wolfbrother than it would to say “Do what you must, I do not know much of what is going on here, but there is a chance that you can get to her dream from the wolf dream, I am not a dreamer so I can't help, Good Luck”

    TDR: 54

    Gaul and Rhuarc yay! As well as Mat and Julin I suppose. Julin is not exactly one of my favorite characters he always seemed fairly unimportant in the grand scheme, which I feel bad about Julin never does anything really wrong persay, he doesn't annoy me and is really Mat's version of Hurin in a way, or Perin's version of Gaul.

    I think it could be that Mat has a side kick and that is Thom most of the time, when he is not being Rand's sidekick Thom is pretty much with Mat, book 1 we have Rand and Mat, then book 3 Mat is seperated from Rand, then Thom shows up, book 4 Mat goes with Rand, while Thom goes with the girls..and it stays that way until Mat shows up to haul Elyane to Andor, and Thom tags along.

    Julin on the other hand, is just sorta there through most of it..getting browbeat into going to Tanchicho.

    Rand is in the stone, Egwene and Perrin are in the Stone in Tel'anran'rhiod, the Aiel are in the stone, and we set up for the big climax of the book, and really of the first part of the series.

    TDR: 55

    Oh, oh oh..I just had a thought.

    Be'lal wants to steal Callandor, but Ishamanel is in the wings waiting, he doesn't bother to help Be'lal as Moraine balefire's him, it is a really good thing there are no Black Sisters, considering the flaw in the sword that is not a sword.

    Amico gets shielded in a way that does not cross over from the world of dreams to the waking world, and the three girls are stuck still, I am presuming that Amico tied the weaves, after all..maintaining the weaves while asleep is probably rather difficult to do.

    I just would like to say, Screw the Three Girls here. Seriously they deserve to wash pots and pans for the next 3 years after how they treat Mat here, I love Elyane and think Egwene and Nynaeve are cool, but seriously, They are to paraphrase Wowbanger the Infinitely Prolonged. “They are Jerks, real Kneebiters”

    going back a bit, I wonder if any of the Highlords that Mat and Julin battled against ended up in the Band of the Red Hand, I almost wondered if Mat fought against Talmanes, but he is Charieanen isn't he, I always make that mistake.

    Perrin saves Faile, it is a fairly cool scene. I wonder if there was someone actively setting traps for Perrin in the world of dreams or if they were a creation of the Hedgehog, I really wish we got more explanations for the various artifacts of power that are shown.

    Especially the one in Book 4.

    Wow, tons of different PoV here, Rand defeats Ba'alzamon again. Interestingly Rand severs the bonds of shadow, when he does this later, it fully separates the Forsaken from the Dark One. I wonder if Ishamael had to re-swear to the Dark One again.

    And we have Rand, taking his first step towards what he does in A Memory of Light, really his first goal, above even defeating the dark one, to set the things he did as Lews Therin right.

    TDR: 56

    Not much to talk about here, I pretty much had guessed from the start that Ba'alzamon was Ishamael, but I never really felt Jordan meant for that to be a mystery, considering the Prologue of book 1, Rhuarc reveals who the “people of the dragon” are, though I wonder how the Aiel came to that name, the Aiel seemed to have been..servants? Of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, so if the term “People of the dragon” originated there..why? They were serving all of the Aes Sedai, not just The Dragon..heck their mission was given to them after the Dragon was dead, so really it had to have come before that..which would be odd, since Pre-War of the Power, there would be no Dragon since Lews Therin got the name during the war didn't he?
     
  2. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Maine
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    The 'People of the Dragon' thing... This always puzzled me too, and the best explanation I could come up with is this: the particular group of Dai'shain that become modern-day Aiel were specifically the servants of Lews Therin. After what happens with sealing the Bore, this batch of Dai'shain have no master and no direction. So typical Aes Sedai kill two birds with one stone; give these lost Dai'shain a purpose, having them protect those items.

    I know it isn't spelled out like that, but it's my best guess. We know that none of the Dai'shain are literal children of Lews Therin, since we know what happened to all his children...

    I totally agree about how Aes Sedai (or women who plan on becoming Aes Sedai) are outright discouraged from any martial skills. I think it would probably work out better if there were different martial arts classes for the Novices/Accepted; swordsmanship, knife-throwing, cudgel-smashing (Nynaeve for sure!), hand-to-hand. Each student being required to study at least one martial art. I know that the Warder is considered basically just an extension of his Aes Sedai, so as long as he can defend her they think it's all good, but we've seen how well that works out. Although I imagine the Red Ajah probably has ball-busting classes that are required study... (In Randland, of course; no offense intended Red Ajah!).
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  3. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,070
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    All I am saying is, Aiel hand to hand + The one Power = Avatar Style Magic Martial Arts and I was 1000% sad that after the cleansing the Aiel never did that because it would have been all sorts of winning.
     
  4. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Maine
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    This is a new line of thought for me with this series, but what a fascinating idea! Explosive punches, flying arrows imbued with lightning, spears that shoot razor-sharp blades of air... Oh, the possibilities! Now I'll likely spend the rest of the day thinking about this. :scratch
     
  5. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 4, 2002
    Messages:
    13,182
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    I thought they were called People of the Dragon because the Dragon came from their blood.
     
  6. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,070
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    But I don't think Lews Therin did, and until he comes back from his test in Rhudian the Aiel are quite adamant that "The Dragon Reborn" and "He who comes with the dawn" Are two different prophecies, so it would have made little sense for them to be "The people of the Dragon" if The Dragon was not their savior.
     
  7. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 4, 2002
    Messages:
    13,182
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Better post these before I keep forgetting and have a massive epic post at the end. :lol

    Chapter 48

    • Is the twisted ring ter'angreal addictive in some way? Egwene wants it against her skin at all times.
    • I like noting clothing differences, so: poor Tairen women wear high necked dressed, up to their chin, their skirts stop at the ankle, and they wear multiple pale-colored aprons. Poor Tairen men wear baggy trousers that come in at the ankle (I think) and vests? I think vests? I forgot to note that. The high-necked dresses seem impractical for Tear, but later richer women are seen wearing dresses that show off shoulders and cleavage, which would be impractical for work. So perhaps the poorer women wear the high necked dresses to protect their skin from the sun while working outside?
    • I like the scene with Nynaeve and Mother Guenna trading herblore. Egwene's a bit foolish, though, not trying to learn what she can. The Power isn't always welcome or appropriate or -- in some places -- possible. That's one of Egwene's flaws, I think, is jumping to use the Power first rather than seeing if there's another way to solve the problem. Cf. attacking the Whitecloaks within sight of Tar Valon.
    • The Forsaken here (Be'lal) is giving bad dreams and hopelessness. Illian/Sammael had anger and aggression.
    • Finally! Elayne slaps Egwene.
    Chapter 49
    • Juilin has sharp eyes -- he's seen the Aiel.
    • What's the history between Juilin and Mother Guenna? He seems too young for a romantic history. She obviously respects him and likes him.
    • I don't like that Mat didn't notice Thom getting sick. :(
    • The innkeeper in that last inn is a good man, protecting Mat even after Mat kills a man. Sort of kills him.
    • And Mat finally figures out how his luck works. :joy
    Chapter 50
    • Perrin has adjusted to the way the wolves feel in his head, and feels the lack.
    • Tear forbids channeling but is basically powerless to enforce that ban, unlike Far Madding, which makes it physically impossible to channel.
    • The roofs in Tear are repeatedly described as coming to points. I'm picturing points like on the Taj Mahal.
    • The innkeepers have all been male, and they all wear dark blue.
    • Just occurred to me: Why did Master Luhhan make that axe that Perrin has?
    • Perrin is a smith, a builder, a forger of things that last. Foreshadowing? Or does he just fulfill his metaphor? :p
    • Be'lal is posing as High Lord Samon.
    • Moiraine: "I have learned things in the last year. I am more dangerous than when I came to Emond's Field." This definitely supports the theory that she learned balefire at Vandene & what'shername's.
    • Be'lal envied Lews Therin. Called Netweaver -- because he was good at making traps? High general. Swordmaster.
    Chapter 51
    • Sigh. Poor Juilin. Compulsed to obey the Black Ajah. Does it come out later that he asked too many questions of the wrong people and that's how the BA found out about him?
     
  8. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Maine
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    The axe that Perrin carries:

    In the first book, its backstory is mentioned. It was made for a merchants guard, who then refused to pay the agreed-upon price. When Luhhan finds Perrin "practicing" with the axe (typical boy, this always amused me), he tells Perrin he can have it. When Perrin tells this story, Mat laughs at him.

    As far as Juilin getting caught, we never find out the specifics. Although there's a weird sort of inconsistency with him getting Compulsion'ed... Later on we find out Liandrin doesn't know how to use Compulsion, she only knows a weave that makes her arguements seem more persuasive; she cannot use this weave to force someone to do something they wouldn't otherwise do...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  9. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    12,600
    Location:
    Maryland
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Adeleas. :look


    This reminded me of Moghedien being called The Spider. Perhaps they both acted in similar ways.
     
  10. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 4, 2002
    Messages:
    13,182
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Cold, thanks. I thought that was it, but didn't have book 1 with me to confirm.

    Do one of the other Black sisters know Compulsion? Or maybe Be'lal himself Compulsed Juilin. Mother Guenna does say to Mat that the High Lord wanted the girls.
     
  11. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Maine
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    No problem Mother.

    As far as the Compulsion, I did consider Be'lal doing the heavy lifting there. That seems more likely than one of the other Black Ajah. I think a "High Lord" would have an easier time luring Juilin into a trap than the women he is hunting would, too.
     
  12. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    7,960
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Chapter 54: So many things going on, but I enjoyed the part where Mat fighting Darlin, wonder what would have happen if Mat killed Darlin, but lucky he didn't... And finally Mat know what happens when he lit all the fireworks at once :shifty

    (Darlin became king of Tear later)
     
  13. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    16,429
    Location:
    Drøbak, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Yeah, it is kind of funny that Mat invents the bomb by setting off a lot of fireworks :look Especially considering his "dragons" later ^^
     
  14. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Maine
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    I'm glad you've brought this up, Aes Sedai! I always enjoy how Mat plans to employ the fireworks as a diversion, and they after they go "KA-KA-BOOOOOOOOM!" he sees the big ol' hole in the wall and thinks, "Ah-ha! A way in!". So he goes rushing right in, and immediately meets all the guards that come running to investigate. Then he remembers, "Whoops, that was supposed to draw the guards, so I could sneak in another way! Burn me!"

    And then Juilin asks, "Have I allied myself with a man who can channel?" Of course it's just the fireworks; but considering Mat's connection with Rand... I think it's safe to say at this point that he has allied himself with a man who can channel.

    Note: I'm paraphrasing here, I didn't actually look up the corresponding quotes.
     
  15. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    7,960
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    :giggle Right, silly Mat! :D

    Well, bomb ain't common in Randland, so no wonder some thing it's something to do with channeling... :)
     
  16. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Maine
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Very true, Imzadi Sedai. Can't blame someone for thinking that explosion is One Power created; also, Mat's actions that night fit in pretty well with the insanity associated with Saidin. A lone man storming the "Stone that can never fall"...
     
  17. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    16,429
    Location:
    Drøbak, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Yeah, my first thought would have been channeling too :look

    And I just love how Darlin starts this long monologue, and Mat just "Don't have time to listen to you, gotta go!" and Darlin is shocked :p
     
  18. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,573
    Location:
    Chuckville, IL
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Anyone else notice how the Pattern showed Mat early on where the girls were, but he convinced himself his feeling was wrong, and then he finds where they were right after they get kidnapped and is forced to go rescue them. Dang it mat rescue them before you have to seige a castle and get into a fight with the elite of a fighting force and then face a Black Ajah Aes Sedai for seasoning :look
     
  19. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    7,960
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Right Wil, I was like "loooook there Mat, go over there Mat! :facepalm why waste health to Thom, oh well" :giggle
     
  20. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,573
    Location:
    Chuckville, IL
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Yeah, and Thom started coughing just when they passed. Almost like it was all in a plan to come full circle :look