2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    In fairness to Mat, he is new at the whole "Scarily Lucky" thing at this point so he is not watching for it as of yet, he even chides himself about it during the chapter. "Nothing is more random than looking down an ally during a lightning strike"

    You notice that after that realization he begins to abuse it a bit more actively.
     
  2. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    Once Mat gets the hang of his luck, coupled with his ta'veren-ness, he's like a force of nature. Especially since he consistently fights against what he's supposed to be doing, things spiral out of control so quickly around him.

    If anyone in the series deserved a spin-off, it's Mat for sure. Although Jain Farstrider would be a cool character to explore.
     
  3. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    I always considered his Luck to be his Tav'ereness manifest, which is why it worked on Loaded Dice.
     
  4. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn to the end!

    This has been great fun, even though I jumped on board late in the game. Looking forward to The Shadow Rising!

    Thanks for keeping the reading and discussion on schedule/on track, Mother! Thanks to everyone for the great discussions!

    :wave:fistbump
     
  5. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    I'm so behind on posting in here, though I have at least been keeping up on reading.

    Chapter 38:
    -I like the Aiel being worried when they see Nynaeve getting angry. :lol 'Oh no... have we angered an Aes Sedai? D: "

    Chapter 39:
    -"Blood of out blood mixed with the old blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours." It's fun actually knowing what all this means now. :p
    -Egwene going on (in her head) about how the tree of life couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Aiel

    Chapter 40:
    -Mat worries briefly about being forced to fight in the Cairhienin army because he hates following orders. Well... you kinda skip that part of fighting, Mat. :p
    -Aludra invented matches!

    Chapter 42
    -I like Nieda telling Moiraine that Bili's so dumb he's probably copying her dreams and using them as his own. :lol Poor Bili.
    -I kinda like how Moiraine deals with Faile. She was the one who agreed to come along and not ask questions after all. :p
    -Perrin sees other people's dreams. Mat dicing with Ba'alzamon and Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve stepping into a Black Ajah trap.

    I know it works out but :facepalm Poor Thom freaking out while Mat plays with the fireworks.
    :facepalm :facepalm

    -Mat is very insistent that people are only chasing him because of Elayne's letter.

    Chapter 46:
    Gaebril tells Mat "Perhaps you should see something of the world before it changes." That's rather ominous coming from one of the Forsaken...

    Chapter 47:
    -Gill tells about how he heard a man trying to pass off Gill's dream as his own and uses that to prove that people can't tell where rumors start. I liked the way Jordan just slipped in another instance of shared dreams.

    Chapter 48:
    -Egwene has 'nightmares' of Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers, Perrin with a Falcon, Perrin deciding between an axe and a hammer, and Mat dicing with the Dark One and telling Egwene that he's coming. Then dragons settling into Rand's skin, Rand facing the Seanchan, Rand confronting her and the women with her (one of whom is a Seanchan). Again, it's fun knowing what stuff means now. :)
    -I like Mother Guenna's 'cure' for people who are arguing too much :lol
    -Nynaeve does a pretty good job not exactly lying while explaining who they're looking for. Saying that the women stole from her mother and that they murdered.
    -Egwene to Nynaeve: "You manipulate people as well as Moiraine." :facepalm Ouch.

    Chapter 49:
    -Mat silently urges Perrin to return to Emond's Field while he still can. And really, he's the only one of the three who does.
    -Who is the "fellow with close-cropped white hair, wearing a coat with puffy, striped sleeves like Comar's" laughing and weaving a net around Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne that Mat dreams about?

    Chapter 50:
    -Faile to Perrin: "Blacksmith, if I live through this, I will make you pay."
    ....seriously, Faile? You're blaming Perrin for it? :rolleyes
    -Perrin wishes he could leave the party... but really, even if he had the choice, he would have to abandon Rand in order to do it. I don't think he thought it through really.
    -Moiraine is shocked to hear there are Aiel in the prophecies.
    -Faile must be super confused when Perrin says he's going to go think about a hammer. :lol

    Chapter 51:
    -Nynaeve:
    :arch :arch Really, Nynaeve? I like Nynaeve, but her rivalry with Moiraine is rather irritating. Hating her as much as the Seanchan? Really?
    -Rand thinks that, after Callandor it will all be over... Sorry, Rand. :\

    Chapter 54:
    -Matthinks he sees Rand, but dismisses that idea outright. Perrin does the same later, but Perrin at least should've guessed. I mean, that's why they were going to Tear in the first place. :cheese

    Chapter 55:
    -Rand still thinks he's already killed the Dark One. Be'lal is amused. :p After he kills Be'lal he even rejoices that he's just won the Last Battle! :lol Sorry, Rand, not quite yet...
    -Be'lal asks Rand if he remembers taking "that tame sport called sowrds and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said men once had" Did they really used to play with swords not realizing that they even could be used to kill people? :blink
    -Rand splits balefire with Callandor. :blink
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2015
  6. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    Wow, overload! I'm going to have to come back to all this after my coffee...

    I had forgotten the mention of shared dreams in Caemlyn, that discussion cropped up earlier with Sammael and Be'lal.

    Anyways, the guy that "Looks like Comar" has gotta be Be'lal, the Netweaver.

    I have to agree about Moiraine's treatment of Faile, considering her bullying of Perrin at this point (even though it's a tad cute). "Eat your fish" Classic stubborn Moiraine, you can really see quite a bit of similarity between her and Nynaeve.
     
  7. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    In chapter 49, I always assumed that was Be'lal?
     
  8. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    Perrin's Wolf Dreams... He does indeed see other peoples' dreams sometimes (like when he comes upon Rand killing Shadowspawn), but I think these are like Dreamer dreams; I think they're "prophecies", not piggybacking on others' dreams. Not positive about that, but that's always been my interpretation.

    Mat and the fireworks, that always cracks me up, especially Thom practically having a coronary. I'm sure everyone has known someone like that at some point, the kid that has to destroy something out of curiosity.

    Mat's insistence that Elayne's letter is why he has assassins chasing him... Come on! Did he forget about being chased by Fades and Darkfriends all through the first book? Well, maybe he did, considering the gaps in his memory, but still! He knows better than that.

    Egwene's comment to Nynaeve about manipulating people, that's about the peak of her nastiness through this story arc. It was amusing very (very!) briefly, but that gets seriously frustrating. Their sniping could drive anyone crazy, can't blame Elayne for getting so furious about it.

    I think Nynaeve realizes deep down that Moiraine isn't the "bad guy" in the whole situation, but she feels like she has to blame someone for everything that changes in her life and the Two Rivers. Moiraine represents everything that has changed, all the bad things that have happened; it isn't fair, but emotions rarely are...

    "-Rand thinks he sees Rand, but dismisses that idea outright." Rand isn't that crazy, yet ;). But yeah, that gave me a little chuckle there, when the characters see each other in Tear, but assume it is just their imagination. Like when Mat sees someone climbing up along the outside of the Stone, way way up.

    Be'lal's comment about turning swords into weapons, I think that is accurate. We know from later on that people in the Age of Legends were convinced they had eliminated war, and that weapons weren't necessary. I could see swordfighting just being a sport for fun in that kind of world; even though in real life, war still happens (frequently), swordfighting has become like it's portayed in the Age of Legends. They aren't used to kill, but there are plenty of sports that involve swordplay (fencing, kendo, etc.) :swordy

    I didn't have the presence of mind to put all this together earlier this morning :-)sleep), but after some coffee, my brain is working right again. :blink
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2015
  9. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Hurray for caffeine! :lol

    That's certainly what they sounded like. They did have the same quality as Egwene's dreams. The thing that made me think he was just watching dreams was that it mentioned patches of light and him seeing through them, which reminded me of when Egwene's floating through the starry landscape of dreams. Though it isn't exactly the same.

    Yeah, he's super stubborn there! I mean, if he really thought about it, he'd realize that's not the only reason. He keeps trying to get out of doing anything and, like Perrin, not wanting to accept that he's ta'veren.

    Yeah, that's true. It's just frustrating. :\

    I meant Mat. :rofl

    Yeah, I can understand that and I really liked the casual reference to life in the Age of Legends. It just seems strange to me that, even with no war, it wouldn't even occur to them that "Hey, these swords that we're using for this sport, the assumed goal of the sport being to strike at your opponent, could actually kill someone." I suppose he probably didn't mean it totally literally, though. :p I mean, accidents happen and, even if the swords aren't sharp, there are surely minor injuries during practice. They probably just hadn't thought about using it for full-scale battles, which makes sense.
     
  10. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    About the swords and Age of Legends, Kassina Sedai, I definitely agree with what you're pointing out. Don't forget though, that this was amongst incredibly powerful channelers; I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that it would be a complete revelation to the Aes Sedai of that Age that they could use mundane objects to kill. The sheer destructiveness of the One Power was probably the only thing that mattered to them in the War of Power; we know that the Aes Sedai of that time used the One Power for practically everything, including bathing.

    But aside from that comment from Be'lal, we only get a couple more tidbits about swords and the Age of Legends (example below), so it is impossible to say with any certainty how things played out.

    Rand thinks to himself that back in the Age of Legends, he was a better swordsman than Elan Morin. There might be one or two other comments like that, but nothing really expository.

    And about the Nynaeve/Moiraine rivalry, it is incredibly frustrating. I get where Nynaeve is coming from, but really, she should be thanking Moiraine on bended knee for saving the boys, Egwene, and Emond's Field altogether (how bad would the Trolloc Raid have been without Moiraine and Lan?).
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2015
  11. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    That's a very good point. I hadn't considered that.

    And yeah! Moiraine saved all of their lives numerous times. It annoys me when people still don't trust her. :| I get that she's not telling you everything and that's frustrating, but that doesn't mean you flat-out can't trust her. She's trying to save the world after all.
     
  12. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    It bothers me too, especially how mean Rand is to her for quite some time. He's got the same syndrome as Nynaeve (Moiraine representing everything that has changed), but it's way out of line. Moiraine is (in my opinion) the most heroic character in the whole story, it's really upsetting when the main characters lash out at her so harshly; considering everything she has done for them, the burdens she carries, they should practically worship her.
     
  13. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Agreed. Moiraine is one of my favorite characters. At least Rand realizes it eventually. :)
     
  14. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    Same here, Kassina Sedai. Moiraine and Mat are pretty evenly matched in my list of favorite characters. Close up there are Pevara, Androl, Tam, and Rodel Ituralde. And Thom of course, the musician and writer in me cannot help but love Thom.
     
  15. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Yeah, I really wish Moiraine got more to do in aMoL... Yes, she saved the big meeting, and Rand trusted her enough to link with her, but in the Bore she just stood there...

    And I really wish we could have seen the Moiraine-Siuan reunion :look

    But that is still 11 books from now, so moving on :look
     
  16. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    All awesome characters! :) I'd probably add Aludra, too.
     
  17. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    To be fair. Moraine has a GIGANTIC issue in not telling people things that would be incredibly helpful to them because they "Do not need to know" she has dedicated her life to her cause and is a great hero who does deserve great props, but her way of going about it early on made everyone's life much harder than it needed to be for everyone including herself.

    Edit : Also you guys forgot the two bestest characters in the series.

    Ingtar and Verin.
     
  18. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Yes, but if Moiraine told everyone all that is relevant to them, this series would be much shorter :p
     
  19. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    You've got that right, Ryu; Verin is right up there. Ingtar, meh. Ingtar's last stand, and the scene with Rand at that time, is definitely epic. If Ingtar had been around longer, I might be more inclined to agree. We didn't get too much of him though, he barely evolved beyond an archetype character.

    Dead on, Aduiavas Sedai; the pacing of the story was dependent on Moiraine not telling everything she knew. Especially her knowledge of the Prophecies, that information tied into some really big reveals that would've been spoiled by prior knowledge.

    I think if I was actually living the events of the series, as opposed to just reading it, Moiraine's parsimonious doling-out of knowledge would've ticked me off too. But knowing what we know as readers... It's all a matter of perspective.
     
  20. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Chapter 52

    • Despite having the look of a troublemaker, Mat apparently is also trustworthy-looking.
    • He gets the dice in his head. It's funny, though, that he thinks "the dice in his head" and not "WTF WHY ARE THERE DICE IN MY HEAD."
    Chapter 53

    • Here's where we find out that Be'lal not shielding his dreams is causing the spillover.
    • Moiraine wants to send Perrin, Faile, and Loial to Tar Valon. She's always trying to protect them instead of letting the Pattern play out. You'd think she'd learn that her plans never work out.
    • And here we start following Perrin following Faile. Though tbh, I did tear up a bit when he found her.
    • Loial guards the door while Perrin goes to TAR. It shows both Perrin's trust in Loial, and Loial's dedication to Perrin. Loial is loyal, haha. (Stole that from Faile.)
    • Hopper readily accepts Perrin's willingness to die if he doesn't find Faile.
    Chapter 54

    • Juilin is fighting the Compulsion.
    • Mat thinks it's going to be a bang and a flash, even though Aludra told him they'd destroy a house if they were all set off together.
    • Juilin and the High Lord -- Juilin is amazed that the High Lord doesn't seem any different from him.
    Chapter 55

    • Even looking at Callandor, Rand doubts that he's the Dragon Reborn.
    • Be'lal knows Ba'alzamon is not TDO.
    • Be'lal underestimates Moiraine's "puny" powers.
    • And was balefired.
    • Maybe it wasn't exactly Compulsion Liandrin used. It could have been one of those tricks girls learned before they were sent to the Tower. Maybe she just developed a nasty trick. (If she was a wilder. No idea.)
    • Rand cut Ba'alzamon off from the True Source.
    • Once again thinks he killed TDO. Fought the Last Battle. Foolish boy. Again.
    • Why do the Aiel kneel? Aiel don't kneel.
    Chapter 56

    • It seems like people are cheering for TDR. Cheering? Aren't they scared? Why cheer when they know what he brings.
    • Mat's hitting on Bain and Chiad and doesn't realize they're a package deal. :giggle
    • Mat: "He would have expected Perrin to have been up in the Stone last night; the blacksmith had always been braver than anyone with good sense."
    • Moiraine hadn't been to the inn to check on Perrin, Faile, and Loial yet.
    • Another seal found.
    • Mat thinks he'd not have come to the Stone had he known about Be'lal...then he rethinks and he'd come in quieter to rescue Eg, El, and Ny.
    • Why are the Aiel the People of the Dragon??
    • Moiraine: "Perhaps [Ba'alzamon] was the first of the Forsaken freed, or perhaps he was never entirely bound." It's like she's forgotten Aginor and what'shisname at the EofW were Forsaken. And yet she counts them as dead, because she counts 9 of 13 alive (Be'lal and Ishamael, Aginor and Bwhat'sit). I'm not sure why she things Ba'alzamon/Ishy is different from the first two.
    • Our dead-dead Forsaken total 1, now (right?): Be'lal.