2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 22-28

I felt bad for Mat in these chapters, especially since no one understand that he literally could not leave Rand's side. Even when he struggles in front of Perrin to say the words and can't manage it, Perrin doesn't get it.

At the Portal Stone, Rand's "it has to work for me sometime" comment about Mat's luck did make me laugh though.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 22-28

Eventually the Aiel catches up to her, and introduces herself as Amys, I am actually a bit surprised that Egwene does not react to the Hold and Sept that Amys is from, since if I recall properly Amys is from the same Sept and Hold as Aviendha, and she invites Egwene to come train with her in the world of dreams.

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Is Avi from the same sept and hold? She later says she visits Cold Rocks Hold. But, Egwene may simply have not remembered where Aviendha was from. It's a foreign "title" to Egwene, so it may not be something she realizes is important to remember.

...the last is a Bard/Gleeman/The only guy on team good guy who is more dangerous than Lan. And yes I do think Thom could rank as more deadly than Lan ...

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Agree! After all, it's Thom who's the last line of defense at the Last Battle, and that doesn't even take into consideration his political skills.

I think what Ryu means Mother, is that a scene like that would have gotten stronger reactions if Tylin was the male and Mat the female...

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I agree on that point, though. I said it was scary and creepy. It's also rapey and kidnappy. But more on that when we get there.

Kassina Tendar said:

-Egwene sees a giraffe skeleton?

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Yep!

-Do we know what the rule is governing which animals appear in the world of dreams and which don't? Or is it that the larger animals (i.e. horses not in their stalls) just don't dream themselves to be in their stalls so she wouldn't find them there?

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Wild animals appear in TAR. So bugs, rats, feral dogs, wolves, deer, etc., would appear, but horses, pet dogs, pet cats, cows, other livestock, etc., wouldn't. We don't know *why* wild animals have the connection, just that they do. (I think we don't know. )

It really seems like a snap judgment for Egwene to suddenly decide she must go to the Waste. I realize she has to go and it does make sense that she'd want to learn... but it still seems like she came to that decision very suddenly as if it were no big deal to jump over to the Waste for a bit. She also assumes that Aviendha will want to come with her, not even asking her first when saying that Aviendha could accompany her. She's then a bit hurt when Aviendha says she doesn't want to.

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I thought it weird that she assumed Avi would go with her, too. Like she doesn't see Aviendha as anything but a guard, someone to watch her back.

-Trollocs attacking Myddraal. Is that solely to do with ta'veren or Mat's luck? Or does that just happen sometimes? (but it happened right then because of Mat's luck)

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Remember, Trollocs attacked Trollocs to save Rand as well. Something else is at work here; someone is deliberately protecting Mat and Rand.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 22-28

Lanfear sent the other Trollocs She admits as much somewhere... They have orders to attack the original Trollocs to protect Lews Therin

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 22-28

Oh. She hinted at it when she was talking to Rand in the hall, but she didn't want to confirm because she didn't want him to come to depend on her help.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 22-28

I wonder if she really did send them, or if she was just taking advantage of his assumption that it was her.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 22-28

She admits it later. I forget when, but I think it's when she's talking to some of the other Forsaken. Or some of the Forsaken are talking to her. Either way, it's confirmed at some point that Lanfear sent those Trollocs in aid of Rand et al.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 22-28

Rhed al'Tere said:

• Rand knows instinctively what cry to use to rally the Defenders: "Rally to the Stone! The Stone stands!" Had he used another rally cry, it may not have worked out so well.

• We also see a saber toothed bear (?), a giraffe, and the Mercedes symbol.

• The Myrdraal called Mat the Hornsounder, so the Dark One knows that Mat sounded the Horn.
• Trollocs rescued Mat and Rand. Why?

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I do have to wonder if Rand might not have heard the rallying cry during his invasion of the Stone
Him knowing that using that cry was a very tactical move especially since it led the Defenders to looking up to Rand later on because he fought with them.

I do love hearing about the sabre toothed cat ^_^ because it makes my avatar possible
Yes I do think it's a giraffe and Mercedes hood ornament. I do wonder if the skeleton that sounds like an elephant is a modern one, or maybe a woolly mammoth. Also consider if they had found only the skull, if they would wonder if it was some giant of a man with a single eye :arch

Maybe not TDO, but likely whichever Forsaken was using that particular Mydraal. As for the rescue, I think it may be Lanfear spreading chaos and trying to let Rand live long enough so she can make him a thrall of her own. Errrrr lover :P

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

TSR: 30

This is one of the few moments I actually like the couple of Faile and Perrin, and Jordan proves that he can balance drama and comedy well, which is something I think a few creators of fiction could do a great deal better, the scenes of Perin crying and Bran reacting to Loial coming in are a huge swing in mood, but everyone is acting quite in character, with Loial being completely embarrassed at Marin being embarrassed, I wonder if part of Loial's embarrassment comes from his species becoming so isolated that even the people of Manatheren have forgotten them.

Loial also offers to sing to the Apple Trees, which is probably the most adorable thing.

TSR: 31

Speaking of Verin, Hello Verin and Allana, and why would Verin be surprised to see Loial with Perrin, she was with them through The Great Hunt, and knew he was with Rand and Co, the Aiel however should be a different matter, but I imagine the blacks spread that quickly enough “Be careful of screwing with the Dragon, he got Aiel with him so avoid getting it in the back by one of the stealthy little things”

You know thinking about it the Aiel lose their..stealthyness as the series goes on, wouldn't it have been a good idea to have a few of Rand's guards be hidden so if an attack happens, the hidden gaurds can sneak up behind the attackers.

Anyways, Perrin explains why he is there, as do the Aes Sedai and it makes sense for them to come looking for girls who can channel after 2 very powerful ones from the same village pop up, Honestly it is a bit surprising the browns did not go to the two rivers every few decades, as Manetheran was an important historical place.

Tam and Abell show up, with food and people who show up with food are the best people, they talk of how Tam and Abell escaped the White Cloaks, and the others getting captured, as well as the Trollocs. Perrin hesitates about telling Tam about Rand being the Dragon, I think this was a conversation that should have been had more in depth, as bad as it would be for Tam I think Perrin confirming it would have been better than Tam learning of it later. Especially since the rumors are true and Rand is legit The Dragon Reborn. Then Perrin decides that he is going to make the Trollocs go away from the Two Rivers, and never return.

TSR: 32

Perrin, Faile, the Aiel, Tam, Abell, Verrin and Her Warder Thomas all head out to examine the whitecloak's camp, they arrive at one of the Local farms to stop for a meal, since Tam and Abell trust them.

TSR: 33

Lord Luc, who Perrin loathes instantly shows up, and Perrin begins on the path to being a Lord. It is funny he spends several books denying he wants to be a Lord, but right here he takes command really quickly, and ends up gathering a group of kids, who act like children..until Perrin does his best imitation of Uno, which get approval from Tam and Verin both. Verin probably knew what he was doing, having met Uno..and Uno's special way of talking to people.
They make their way to the whitecloak camp, and sneak in and free The Luhans and the Cauthons, Perrin then again takes command without realizing, splits everyone into two groups and puts Tam in charge of the second. Poor Tam, always second in command, then Perrin leads the distraction group letting the youngings among the Two Rivers Folk make as much noise as possible, and Verin makes it rain, which is supposed to require some large amount of the power is it not? Weather manipulation is supposed to be a big deal, and have side effects. Do we know from the books how powerful Verin is compared to others? I always assumed she was lower in the power than the average sister.

Then again, she seems in command among the sisters that show up later, so she could be decently powerful.

TSR: 34

Rand and Mat return from Rhuidean at dawn, thus fulfilling the prophecy, Rand breaks custom and says he intends to change it often, not a good start for his Chieftanship, also we learn a bit more of the prophecy of he who comes with the dawn.

born of our blood mixed with the Old Blood

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Now this is actually an interesting bit, there is another little bit, “raised by an ancient blood not our own” The Ancient Blood, is of course Manetheran, and well Al'Thor, the Son of Thor from what we know of the languages of the wetlands. Now Thor is close to Thorim, the last king of Manatheren, so Tam could very well be a direct decent of the rulers of Manathern.

Where it gets interesting is the line “old blood” which has to be a bloodline that is consiered old for the current age, but does not date back so far as Manatheren, there are only two I can think of that are of importance that possibly date back long enough to be considered Old, but not long enough to be considered ancient.

One is the Damedred line, which Rand is a stone's throw away, however there is another possible bloodline that Rand could descended from, The First Queen of Andor took the throne with the aid of one of Artur Hawkwing's Generals, now we know that The Hawkwing put his son in charge of the army that he sent to what would be the Seanchan Empire so the Man in charge of besieging Tar Valon could have also been related to him in some way, that would fit the Old Blood not Aiel.

TSR 35

Egwene and Elyane meet at the stone of tear in the world of dreams, they discuss the events that happened after each group had left Tear, Rand becoming the Cara'carn, then Egwene gets caught by Amys, who punishes her for going into the world of dreams unsupervised by scaring the holy crap out of her.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

This might be petty of me, but it annoys me a lot when Perrin and company arrive at the farm before getting to the Whitecloak camp and he sees the girl he used to like. Then he's like oh wow she's fat now, I really dodged a bullet there, huh? It's just such a weird thing to include and it makes Perrin look really shallow.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

I'm working really hard on catching up. I'm reading nothing but WoT everywhere but in bed before I sleep (it's hard to take notes lying down).

Chapter notes, then discussion.

Chapter 15

• Obviously, the Fins have multiple rooms for questioners.
• Mat gets four answers instead of the prescribed 3.
• The Fins wouldn't look at Rand's fiery sword -- too much like a torch -- the fire hurts them.
• Mat lies to Moiraine about getting answers.

Chapter 16

• Loial's the same as the boys -- he doesn't want to be a hero. He just does what needs to be done.
• Lan was willing to try to break his oaths to Moiraine to go with Nynaeve. We see later, from Amys, that it was an actual possibility that he could break his oath and not go to the Waste with Moiraine.
• It was Nynaeve's order he obeyed, not the bond or any oath to Moiraine.

Chapter 17

• Thom's dream of a farm. Ha! Of course, as long as there was a town nearby...or a city. :rolleyes
• Moiraine learned something about Thom from the Fins -- she must have, to be so certain that he'd survive Tanchico. Gah. I want to know what she knows at this point, and what she learns through the Aiel rings. We know she learns that she shouldn't seduce Rand in the rings. When does she know about Lanfear and how to get rid of her? Lanfear is Forsaken, so obviously touches the Dark One, so could Moiraine have even asked about that. WHAT DID SHE ASK.
• Galad doesn't recognize Min.
• <3 Laras.
• Logain's glory and power -- signals that he has a bigger role to play (obviously. A sad gentled man wandering the Tower grounds can't get much glory.).
• The way Suian is treating Galad and Gawain could be what helps push Galad to the Whitecloaks.
• Who was the missing sister in Tarabon?
• The retreat of the Blight is the first time in living memory -- and Aes Sedai have long memories.
• Suian doesn't understand that once Min sees something, it's going to happen. What information that she's gotten from Min has she misused because she doesn't understand?
• Suian's order to gentle Taim is against the law. Leane's reaction reinforces that Owyn's gentling was also unlawful, probably even worse than Taim's would be, since Owyn was a peasant boy, not leading a rebellion.
• Who killed Sahra?

Chapter 18

• Ugh: Perrin threatening to spank Faile. And she thinks about hurting him later, too.
• Gaul is flirting with Bain and/or Chiad. (I can't remember which he was actually interested in, if it was one or the other.)
• Faile: "You tried to keep me away from where I belong." Aaaaaawwwww.
• And only when Rand plants Callandor does ta'veren call to ta'veren. Mat would not have been able to break free, I think, like Perrin could. But then Mat couldn't even consider laving Rand.
• Does Perrin ever tell Faile about the wolves?
• Gaul to Perrin: "It's fun to be so young." How old is Gaul?

Chapter 19

• Bananas!
• Sea Folk use a wheel instead of a tiller/rudder -- advanced technology (which makes sense, since they're on the sea and should be developing things that make sailing better).
• Only Aes Sedai can be refused passage on a Sea Folk ship, and it's the Windfinder's choice, as the Aes Sedai could discover the Windfinder could channel. Or, perhaps a ship with a channeling Windfinder would always decline to carry an Aes Sedai?
• And we see yet another set of prophecies. We now have: Prophecies of the Dragon, Aiel prophecies, the Dark prophecies, Jendai prophecies, and will see the Seanchan prophecies as well.
• The tie the Sea Folk have to the sea is very very strong.
• Jendai: The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair." This echoes the story in the Bible (Luke 7) of the woman who washes Jesus' feet with her tears and hair. That woman is repenting of her wrongdoing. Parallel?

Chapter 20

• Mosk & Merk -- Russia (Moscow) and America
• Elsbet -- Elizabeth I
• Anla?
• Elayne asking to learn from Jorin may well help start changing the view of Aes Sedai as all-knowing and haughty.

Chapter 21

• Moiraine is determined to hold on to Lan until her death. At this point, does she know when her (supposed) death is coming?
• Moiraine does feel sorry for Egwene about Rand and Elayne, but she doesn't exactly take the time to talk to the girls about men, so how could she really know?
• Moiraine suspects Windfinders are channelers.
• Moiraine is glad to have Elayne and Nynaeve away from Rand. Because of his danger? Or because of the influence they could have on him, when she wants to be the sole person influencing him? Which infuriates me.
• She wants Rand to depend on her, and her alone, which is foolish.
• She thinks Rand is going back to the Two Rivers.
• Fears Lanfear got to him.
• Prophecy about Callandor: "Who draws it out shall follow after." Does this mean Rand could have chosen anyone to draw it and won their loyalty via prophecy? Nah, that's not really how prophecy works.

Chapter 22

• Rand: Mat could be odd in what he did and why.
• Rand worries Mat's going crazy.
• At this point, Moiraine and Rand are very nearly enemies; they're certainly not working together. Each is trying to to use the other.

Chapter 23

• Moiraine: "[Chances] must be reasoned out and for a strong purpose." She says that as though Rand didn't reason it out. She acts like he's just a boy running around doing things as a lark, like he doesn't have reasons. He does -- he just doesn't explain them to her.
• Finally: Rand tells off Moiraine for Healing him without asking.
• What was Couladin & Muradin's original plan? Co-clan chiefs? That's not even a thing.
• Mat's knife collection makes me laugh.
• When people go to Rhuidean, they go without weapons as the Jenn lived.
• Amys's dream -- she was "almost certain" that Lan would come with Moiraine. And the consequences of that -- if he hadn't come, Moiraine would have died. If Moiraine hadn't come, Rand would have died. Why? What happens later in the Waste that makes Moiraine save Rand, and Lan save Moiraine?

Chapter 24

• Does the Fox-fin believe Mat? Why not. That's what they do to humans. (Skinning them to use as leather.)
• And here's where Mat gets the memories, the fox medallion, and the ashandarei.

Chapter 25

• Why did Aes Sedai live with the Jenn? Just because the Jenn had served them before the Breaking? Why stay with them? Avoid taking the Oaths and shortening life?
• Foretelling? Or using prophecy?
• Mordaine: "You must remain, or all is for nothing, and lost." Without Aiel, Rand wouldn't be able to win the Last Battle.
• We see the ancestors of Cairhien giving the Aiel water.
• Muradin seems to be aware of Rand, even as he seems to be inside the memory.
• Weather was disrupted after the Breaking. Lewin saw heat as a young man, then bad winters as an old man, and his grandson saw heat again.
• The Jenn despise the other Aiel, and yet use them to get back what is theirs, and to rescue those people who are kidnapped. Seems so hypocritical.
• Morin immediately calls the Jenn "they" rather than "we".
• I don't understand how the Jenn could just write off those who are kidnapped, at least before they had the Aiel protectors. They care more about the Aiel as a people than for individuals, and it's just sad.
• In about 30 years, there are 200 people in the largest camp...and 10 camps. A lot of people defect from the Jenn.
• Lewin's mother told him to hide his face because he was a killer.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

Kassina said:

-Do the snakes have a similar power to Min's? When Mat asks them a question, it says they studied the air above Mat's head. Reminds me of what Min can do, only they're always able to interpret what they see. Though I suppose it's a bit different. Min can see things that will happen, while maybe the Aelfinn can see what will happen if Mat does something first. I don't know, just thinking out loud. I feel like Min's ability might be related, though.

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Huh. That's interesting. The 'finns would always see things, while Min's comes and goes. Hm. I like this theory.

Kassina said:

Is Mat able to bully a 4th answer out of them? They answer three questions, but he yells at them, asks them what fate they're talking about and they give him a whole list of answers. Is that a fourth question then?

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Yeeeeep. They're so distraught by Mat's fury and by the place starting to fall apart around them that they basically panic and blurt out all the answers.

Ryu said:

Thom- Does Moraine already think she is going to have Thom as a warder? The way she acts here is a little out of character. With the discussions of love and the like going on with the girls and Moraine is she just falling for him and not knowing that he will save her later?

Or does she feel some gratitude to him for trying to help Rand, which he is doing in his own way even if Moraine does not agree with everything he does? Did Rand's idea for Asmodean being his personal bard come from him having a similar idea to keep Thom close and learn The game of houses from him?

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I think Moiraine learned something about Thom in 'finn land. And perhaps they had some quiet moments on the road from Two Rivers, or in Tear, or whatever. He does think fondly of her (even if she is an Aes Sedai), so maybe she has the same fond thoughts.

Ryu said:

Man, Seafolk jewelry sounds heavy, ear and nose piercings with Chains that have boxes and medallion's hanging off them? That sounds incredibly tiring to wear all the time.

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Probably super fine chains and super light medallions.

Ryu said:

I would rather fight The Dark One with a spork than having Lan wake me up randomly.

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:rofl

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

I wonder if Moiraine got any extra info from the Wise One's letter, and how much of that she believed. I doubt though that any of what she spoke to Thom of was from the letter, else she couldn't swear it by the Three Oaths. Interesting though.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

That's why I think she got info about Thom from the 'fins. Their answers are always true, so she'd be able to swear it without lying.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

I'm within this week's reading.

Chapter 26

• The Tinkers broke off from Aiel to find the Song -- they abandoned the Aes Sedai, which is part of the reason today's Aiel disdain them.
• When did the Aes Sedai join the Jenn -- It was after Lewin left the Jenn. I wonder why they joined them.
• One of the Aes Sedai knew that Ishamael was only partly trapped.
• Angreal got spread about in part because the Aiel had to abandon wagons filled with them. It was a consequence of the Breaking, but not due to the Breaking itself (not all of it, anyway).
• Deindre had a Foretelling. I wonder if that's why the Aes Sedai later joined the Aiel.
• We see the Dragon banner being handed into the Green Man's protection. How does he get his wound? He has it here but not in the next (earlier) memory.
• Aiel had a high percentage of Dreamers, and depended on them.
• The soldier has an insectoid helmet.
• Did the Ogier act as guardians or police in the Age of Legends?
• When Charn was a young man, fancloth was stylish. When he was an old man, it was for soldiers.
• Mat and Rand fight together. Mat who hates the Power chides Rand for not using it sooner. Oh, Mat. Make up your bloody mind.

Chapter 27

• I almost can't blame Perrin for spanking Faile. She did hit him first. And yet I'm justifying violence and it irritates me. Gah.

Chapter 28

• Slayer in teh Tower of Ghenjei. How does he use it?
• Birgitte!
• The Tower of Ghenjei is hard to leave in the real world, almost impossible in TAR.
• Birgitte: "You have a bannerman's courage." Mat commented on Perrin's courage too, earlier in this book. And Perrin was the bannerman at Falme, and called that by Hawkwing.
• Wolves can't see Heroes in TAR.
• Slayer/Luc killed the wolves in the Two Rivers (and other animals, it turns out). I wonder if Fain had any hand in that.

Chapter 29

• The al'Veres try to protect Perrin.
• The scene with Perrin and Faile and him crying breaks my heart every time.

Chapter 30

• Here's a place I admire the writing: After the heaviness of Perrin's grief, we see Bran saying, "There's an Ogier in the kitchen." And then the scene with Loial and Marin making each other jump.

Chapter 31 (part 1)

• Woohoo! Verin! (I actually did forget she came to the Two Rivers. )
• Moiraine's 'easy manner' according to Faile. Verin contradicts her by saying she doesn't remember it at all.
• Alanna is "not so lost to custom" as to bond a man against his will. "Not quite yet." Not till she meets Rand. This absolutely infuriates me, what she did to Rand. She loses any trust she may have been able to gain, for all time, and lowers his trust of Aes Sedai in general. Plus, the stupid woman wasn't strong enough to be bonded to him, and spent her days weeping because his pain was so great. I just...I...GRRRRR. :mad
• Abell and Tam did actually go to the Tower -- Lanfear wasn't lying to Mat about that.
• Perrin: "A Warder once told me the Trollocs call the Aiel Waste 'the Dying Ground.' I mean to make them give that name to the Two Rivers.'
• ^ I may have cheered after that.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

Angreal got spread about in part because the Aiel had to abandon wagons filled with them. It was a consequence of the Breaking, but not due to the Breaking itself

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I have never thought about that before Mother, but of course you are right

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

Wolves can't see Heroes in TAR.

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I wonder if that's always true, or something Birgitte was doing specifically for some reason.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

I think so, since Perrin only see Birgitte?

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

I noticed the insectoid helmet this time too. I do wonder if that was a common helmet until Hawkwing's time, or if they chose it for another reason. Also why would that be the soldiers helmet style?

As for the wolves in the dream and the Heroes of the Horn. I wonder i it's because people enter the WoD at different levels. Dreamers, wolfbrothers, and normal dreamers enter temporarily so can see certain aspects of it, but the wolves and the Heroes are a part of it and use it like a limbo. Wolves though can only see the typical pieces of The WoD. Wolfbrothers on the other hand have aspect of Dreamer in them, but they see the future in the sky, and also can travel in the WoD. Dreamers though can travel in the WoD but see the future in their dreams instead on if the sky. Remember the Heroes also have Precepts that guide them. So maybe there is some governing force that might give them additional powers while in the Dream.
Sorry rambling theorizing

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

So, Perrin's homecoming. I was so MAD about his family. Rand's the Dragon Reborn, Mat blows the bloody Horn of Valere, and Perrin...just has this thing with wolves. HE'S the only one of them that managed to come home. And yet HE'S the one who loses his family. :tug

I also feel like the chapters covering Perrin's transition to leader go more smoothly than Rand's did. Rand's always felt so awkward, whereas Perrin just kinda thinks he's doing what anyone with common sense would do so what's all the fuss about.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 29-35

Megana; yes, in a way it is more smoothly, but then he spends the next 9 books complaining about it