Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: To the End!

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 28-33

    Me too. :\ I haven't been looking forward to this part, and now I know it's with good reason. :(
     
  2. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 34-38

    I found that my feelings about the Mat/Tylin relationship have changed so much since I first read the books. I was relatively young then, and really didn't think much beyond "Huh, why won't she take his 'no' but he's kinda getting a taste of his own medicine". It's only as I've grown both personally and age-wise that I've become increasingly uncomfortable with those scenes, and the whole situation, really. If the gender roles were reversed, I feel like there'd be less tolerance of the situation. I do wonder if that was a deliberate move on Jordan's part.
     
  3. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 34-38

    That's how I feel exactly, Eala.
     
  4. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 34-38

    And I think the argument of Mat getting a taste of his own medicine doesn't stand up. He thinks, at least twice, that he doesn't chase women who say no. I have a list of reasons this wasn't a consensual relationship that'll I'll put up in here eventually.
     
  5. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Aes Sedai Head of the Brown Ajah Forum Moderator

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    Yeah, wow. I had forgotten how awful that was. She refused him food? She cut off his clothes? I don't understand why RJ even included it. Poor Mat.
     
  6. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Sorry for being behind, I was rather sick for a couple of weeks on and off.

    AcoS – 19

    Merena – Merena is afraid of Cadsuane, cause every Aes Sedai short of Aes Sedai, and Cadsuane shows her hypocrisy by telling off the Rebels, while having spent most of her life completely ignoring The Authority of the Hall, her Ajah, and the Elaida, oh and Cadsuane wants to force the Aiel to send Channelers to the White Tower, that would go SO WELL I would love seeing any Amyrlin short of Egwene make that happen.

    AcoS – 20

    Moridin should have murdered everyone here.

    AcoS – 21

    Mat and Birgitte become friends, and get super drunk, thus completely causing Nynaeve and Elayne's plan, I love that in the second part of the chapter Nynaeve thinks that “She knows she should have sent Thom and Juilin” didn't she talk about how likely it was for them to go drinking with Mat?

    Also Beslan! He reminded me of something I wanted to talk about, when he is introduced he is wearing a strange Coat, one I only ever saw in One Piece. Well that and Wade Barret wore one for a bit.

    I love that even drunk Birgitte has more sense than Nynaeve and Elayne have when it comes to Mat.

    AcoS – 22

    Mat has a hangover, which is amusing as heck, also he has a boot on his wash stand.

    AcoS – 23

    I am surprised that Elayne doesn't know who Setalle is, I think an Aes Sedai burning herself out on a Ter'angreal is noteworthy enough to be a history lesson, and Elayne is good enough with history to know something as big as that.

    Also the shielding talent that the one Kin Woman has, I can't believe that did not come into play against one of the forsaken.

    AcoS – 24

    I love that Nynaeve wants to have gray hair and her horror that she ages slowly, Also she is a terrible student.

    AcoS – 25

    We meet Moridin properly for the first time, and I still think that Ishamael got killed on purpose in book 3 so he could go underground and manipulate things from the shadows.

    AcoS – 26

    I really don't care about Morgaise at this point in the story, she has been treading water with the Whitecloaks for several books now, and her sleeping with Valda and getting handed over to the Seanchan when they take over Amadicia doesn't change much. “I relinquish the Throne that I lost to one of the Forsaken”

    AcoS 27 -

    IT BEGINS! Perrins plot of Slow, Painful, Crappy DOOOOM.

    Also Rand's plan of putting guards at the stedding is the stupidest thing, close them. They are unused, and no longer really have a major use for the forces of the light as Rand and Egwene both discovered Traveling. Lock the gateways up completely until after the Dark One is beaten permanently.

    AcoS 28 -


    Mat/Tylin oh this storyline is icky and creepy in so many ways, especially if you reverse the genders of the characters, of course given the themes of the series as a whole I think we can assume that is something of the point. Which I think is becoming more relevant these days in my opinion. With the reactions to the events in Season 4 of A Game of Thrones involving Sansa vs the reactions to season 1 of Agents of Shield involving Agent Ward.

    AcoS 29 -

    Poor Mat, in the palace he is getting chased down by Tylin, outside the palace he has to drink bad Ale, he is just not having fun.

    AcoS 30

    I love Elayne here, her best moments (well second best moments, her best ones are her learning to swear) are when she is just fed up with people being arsehats and going all queen on them.

    In DND there is a term, usually used in Third Edition where Wizards and Mages where quite powerful at high levels called Scry and Die, where you would use a method of finding your target usually by a scrying spell..then proceed to Teleport to the badguy's throne room and use some over powered spell to one shot him. I love that Moghedien tried to do it to Nyneave.

    AcoS 31

    This is one of the great moments in the series, it was beautifully set up from the start, with Nyneave's block, Moraine's death and Lan and Nynaeve's personalities, even if they did not spend a great deal of time together on screen we saw the really important things, I am confused as to why the second half of the chapter is connected to this one, but eh whatever It is amusing to see the Kin all panic, and then The Aes Sedai faint at the age of the older Kins-women.

    AcoS 32

    I love the black hunting Ajah plot, it is one of the best B storylines in the series, especially since it has the different Ajah's working together, It is a shame that all the effort that went into the plot got aten up by Egwene's novice plot later on.
    AcoS 33

    I do pity Rand here, he thought he had raped Min for days. Though honestly I think his mood swings here are a sign him having some really bad mental effects from being tortured by the Tower Aes Sedai.

    AcoS 34

    And we see some of those mental effects in action here, Rand is quite claustrophobic now, though I think that the scene of him making a bridge out of the power would be very impressive put on screen.

    AcoS 35

    I wonder why Rand never tried to talk to the Rebels before, Caraline and Darlin don't seem at all bad here, minus the normal “we are better than normal folk” that lords and ladies have in the setting.

    On another Note, why did Rand not want to take the Aiel with him? We are told in books 2 and 3 exactly how awesome the Aiel are at stealth, they could have hidden easily.
     
  7. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    They may be stealthy, but not very fond of lying. They might have had problems with Rand pretending to be someone he's not. I guess they could just stay hidden as backup and let Rand do his subterfuge, but I'm not sure they would stand for that either...they'd probably decide he was in danger and leap to the rescue, even if unwanted.
     
  8. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    And with Rand's ta'verenness at play, who knows how quickly they would have come upon the rebels.
     
  9. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    And I just read the part where Mat feels constantly unsafe, and where Tylin had him dragged to her chambers by servingwomen, and where she's ordering new clothes for him, and where she's moved him into her chambers without his say-so.

    Like.... I don't know how anyone can look at this relationship and say Mat had it coming, or that it's not coercion/rape/abuse.
     
  10. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    It really make me wonder about Mat's relationship with any women thus far. I mean, every time we're inside his head and he thinks something about a girl, now I'm wondering if in HIS head he's being sweet and they're enjoying it, where really it was not quite so fun for them. :look
     
  11. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 34-38

    Yeah, that's why I pointed out that it was something I thought initially when I was very young and pretty clueless. I obviously don't feel that way now, nor am I in any way arguing that he deserves what Tylin does.
     
  12. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Yep, sorry, didn't mean to imply you still thought that. But some people do, and use that to excuse Tylin's actions.


    Meg, that's a good point. My personal view: I think Mat has a tendency to leer and overflirt, but I don't think he'd take it to the lengths Tylin does, or anywhere near that. I choose to believe him when he thinks that he only ever chased women who wanted chasing.
     
  13. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    I've just listened to the section where Mat is in um... Maerone (sp?) in LoC. When he's flirting (or trying!) to flirt with one of the maids, he ends up frustrated because when he tries to kiss her, she keeps turning her head away and seeming surprised. But he doesn't stop trying to kiss her :p

    With that said, I personally don't think that this somehow justifies the "tit for tat" argument. I think that if Tylin were male and Mat were female, there would be a whole lot more of an outcry about that whole saga. But the Maerone situation is one which, I think, proponents of the "tables are turned" argument will use. So I guess I'm trying to say "Yeah, that argument still sucks because the two situations are totally different." Mat doesn't force Betsy into anything (indeed, she's disappointed when he stops dancing!), and his pursuing her is laughable because he absolutely cannot figure out what signals she's giving him (if any).

    Just thought I'd add a specific example seeing as I've just listened to it :p
     
  14. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Ok, so Mat is socially awkward and doesn't pick up on signals from women. :lol
     
  15. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Omg, all the notes.

    Chapter 27

    • Loial & Karldin go off to the stedding to talk to the Ogier about Waygates.
    • Rand throws Perrin across the room.
    • Perrin has realized that Faile likes shouting arguments.
    • Loial sees that Rand is sening all his friends away.
    • Wait: Perrin and Rand's fight was just a show!
    • Canler (?) discovered the Asha'man bond.
    • Mayene soldiers who were at Dumai's Wells wear a yellow cord on their left arm.
    • Perrin et al are in Ghealdan to take care of the Prophet.

    Chapter 28

    • Mat is still able to be awed by stuff (clock, shelf of books, mirrors, gilt).
    • Tylin forces herself into Mat's lap. (more on this later)
    • Mat took a bite of a lemon and now won't try lemonade. :lol
    • Mat goes to great lengths to avoid Tylin.
    • Neol is still spyin on Carridin. Vanin saw him.
    • Mat resorts to sneaking out of the palace to avoid Tylin.
    • Mat has Olver moved to his rooms.
    • And then Tylin withholds food from Mat.
    • The dice return.

    Chapter 29

    • Mat believes he "had never chased any woman who let him know she did not want to be chased." Back to Eala's point about Betsy -- maybe Betsy didn't say "no" flat out and that's what Mat needs?
    • Beggars attacking Mat answer to Old Cully.
    • What's the urge that Reanne refers to?

    Chapter 30

    • Aes Sedai are not treating Elayne as one of them.
    • Elayne doesn't believe Carridin when he says her mother is alive.
    • Elayne FINALLY steps up and takes her place in the Aes Sedai hierarchy. She leans a little heavily on Egwene's name, but does well.
    • The Tower normally breaks apart groups of women who can channel, but the Kin were quiet and strove to hide themselves, and so the Aes Sedai think the Kin are small.
    • And BAM Elayne is accepted as Aes Sedai.
    • Moghedian knows her poor and hasty use of Compulsion could lead to memory loss or permanent brain damage.
    • Moggy balefires the boat Nynaeve is on. She wanted to kill her entirely; but for a flock of pigeons...
    • Falion is Kandori, but ran away to Ebou Dar as a a novice.

    Chapter 31

    • Aviendha is eager to spy on Carridan because she's afraid to ride the boat to the Sea Folk.
    • Nynaeve is on teh point of blacking out, gives up hope of living, and surrenders.
    • Lan saves her by pulling her up by her braid.
    • Nynaeve is horrified that Lan will see her looking like a drowned rate.
    • Nynave heals just the bruise on Lan's cheek.
    • "Something odd" -- what is it?
    • Nynaeve is awful to Lan, slapping and punching him, and she's determined to marry him.
    • She makes Lan laugh when she asks if there's a way to be sure Myrelle knows it's her he's with.
    • Lan offers not to protect Nynaeve against Moghedian, but to make Nynaeve angry enough to defeat her herself.
    • Reanne claimed to hold no hidden hop of going to the Tower, but when there's a way, she reveals that she actually does. She wants to be Green Ajah.
    • There are 1783 Kin.
    • Elayne dismisses that Mat found the stash, Birgitte disapproves, and Elayne thanks Mat.
    • Reanne is 412 years old.

    Chapter 32

    • Elaida's dream is hilarious, especially given what actually happens with Egwene.
    • 12/39 Aes Sedai escaped Dumai's Wells.
    • Elaida immediately begins a second plot to take Rand.
    • Elaida didn't even listn to Covarla's account, and Alviarin had to point out the male channelers.
    • Alviarin syas Rand is "rather upset" at his treatment. No sh!t!
    • And here Alviarin and Elaida stop pretending: Al calls Elaida by her name rather than Mother.
    • Al starts spreading dissent and discord between ajahs.
    • Al believes Elaida will be sitlled in merely weeks and that she, Al, may end up Amyrlin.
    • Elaida sets Seaine to an inquiry of treason.
    • Sudden change after Elaida ordered what's her name birched -- Aes Sedai in the halls are grouping by ajah.
    • Seaine goes to Pevara. Pevara likes men, thinks Reds should have Warders.
    • Red AJah discourages friendship outside the ajaht.
    • Seaine logics her way to the Black Ajah.
    • Pevara joined Red because she saw it as the best way to hunt Darkfriends -- her whole family was killed by Darkfriends.
    • Pevara knows the Black Ajah exists.

    Chapter 33

    • Rand starts seeing Alanna's bond as a comfort.
    • Rand feels guilty about having sex with Min. Min sets him right: It was comforting. :waggle
    • Rand mentions sending Min away and she sets him straight there too.
    • Min knows the fight with Perrin was faked.
    • Rand admits he loves Min.
    • Min loves Rand, and tells him that Elayne and Aviendha do too. Points to Aiel with 2 wives, can't see how 3 is that much different.
    • Min has a viewing of Rand and LTT merging. Rand is happy because he's not crazy.
    • Min and the Maidens tease Rand mercilessly in his bath.
    • Error on Rand's part: He doesn't learn about the Sea Folk before going to them.

    Chapter 34

    • "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south." This does not refer to Rand tying all nations together. "He" only ties the east and the north; someone else does the binding of the west to south. That is, the Seanchan.
    • The five Aes Sedai with Rand will keep their word -- Min's viewing of them in his hand.
    • Women can make longer Power bridges than men. Metaphor?
    • Harine acknowledges Rand as the Coramoor.
    • Harine hoped to get Rand alone, but he takes Min, Dashiva, Merana, and Rafela.
    • Rafela had heard reports of Min.
    • Sea Folk ships that sail west into the Aryth Ocean don't return.

    Chapter 35

    • Min's viewing of the Shadow around Rand -- the shadow is always winning.
    • Rand will almost certainly fail without Moiraine. DID MOIRAINE KNOW THAT.
    • Min worked in stables to be near horses.
    • Caraline acts like she doesn't want to marry Darlin, but will, eventually. (Min has a viewing.)
    • Darlin will be king of somewhere some day. (Another Min viewing.)
    • Padan Fain/Mordeth has attached himself to Toram Riatin in the Cairhien rebels.
    • Ugh, Toram intends to force Caraline to marry him.

    Chapter 36
    • Neither Caraline nor Min believes Rand can beat Toram. Min didn't know Rand is a blademaster.
    • What happened to the other 3 Reds? One was killed, and that left three.
    • Rand reveals himself to save a woman (of course).
    • Cadsuane slaps Rand for using balefire.
    • Cadsuane won't let Rand die till she teaches him manners.
    • Different Healers have different methods. Moiraine takes the person's head in both hands, and Samitsu uses fingertips to a forehead.
    • Samitsu is the best living healer, perhaps the best ever. (Can't wait till she meets Nynaeve.)
    • Cadsuane was foolish enough to consider taking Rand somewhere unfamiliar?
    • Ah: Cadsuane didn't know what happened. Min tells her. The Aes Sedai are more horrified that Rand stilled some Aes Sedai than by what they did to him.
    • Cadsuane, to Rand: I will not hurt you more than I must.
    • Flinn says the same about Rand's wounds as Samitsu.
    • Dashiva suggested a better, unpainful Healing to Flinn, and Flinn figured it out.
    • Flinn had to seal the woulnds away from teh rest of Rand. They're fighting each other -- he can't do more.
    • Samitsu is trying os hard to make Flinn tell her what he did that she doesn't notice that he's trying to. (They don't end up bonding.)

    Chapter 37
    • Tylin makes Mat feel helpless.
    • Mat was dragged to Tylin by servingwomen.
    • I want to know what "surprises" Nynaeve got when she and Lan married. :lol
    • Tylin moves Mat into her chambers.
     
  16. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    So. Tylin.

    In Chapter 28, she first forces herself on Mat. She forces herself into his lap. He tries to escape, but A) She's the Queen. She has the power in this situation. B) She's a woman, and he's been taught not to hurt women and to be considerate of them. C) She has a big bloody knife.

    The nonconsenual relationship continues from there. After reading just this far, I don't understand how anyone could not see it as nonconsensual and abusive.

    1. Mat does his best to avoid Tylin. He locks his doors, wedges chairs under them, he brings Olver into his rooms, and he avoids all major routes when leaving the palace, so he doesn't run into her.
    2. Tylin withholds food from Mat. All food, until he dines with her. He can't even go to the kitchen and get a roll; he gets laughed at.
    3. Tylin has told people that she wants him and by doing so, heaps on the humiliation for Mat.
    4. Tylin manages to make everyone believe Mat is at fault.
    5. Tylin only uses pet names for Mat -- she takes away his sense of identity. On top of that, she calls him by animal names, pigeon and piglet, both of which are also edible animals.
    6. Tylin takes the keys to Mat's rooms so he no longer has control over who enters.
    7. Mat does not consent. "You can't do this to me."
    8. Mat feels unsafe in his rooms; he doesn't feel comfortable being naked, because Tylin may be there lying in wait.
    9. Tylin cut his clothes off -- again, without consent.
    10. That great line that rapists/abusers use: "You enjoyed it."
    11. Tylin makes Mat feel helpless (chapter 37).
    12. Mat was literally dragged to Tylin by serving women.
    13. Tylin moves Mat to her chambers without asking him.
    14. Tylin is going to have clothes made for Mat to her specifications.

    SO MANY THINGS WRONG HERE. Starvation, humiliation, deprivation of privacy (taking the key, moving him to her chambers), deprivation of agency (move to her chambers, not allowing him to pick his clothes, not allowing him to say no to sex), you enjoyed it. And, mostly, Mat's viewpoint. He doesn't enjoy this. He's not excited about this relationship. He feels helpless, and hunted, and humiliated.

    It's that "You enjoyed it" that grates on me the hardest right now. This is interesting. (Wiki article about causes of sexual violence, links directly to "power assertive rapist.") Tylin truly doesn't believe she's doing anything wrong. She refuses to take no for an answer. And no one would believe Mat if he told them he didn't want this, partly because of his reputation with women. It sucks. It's awful, and it's really uncomfortable to read.
     
  17. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    And Mat's reputation is totally un-deserved. Even one of the oft-quoted "See, he goes after that maid!" scenario from Maerone is more Mat being a bit dim than Mat "chasing" a girl who has said no. Betsy does actually eventually kiss Mat, and that's the point he runs away :p Mat did everything short of leaving Ebou Dar to stop Tylin, and she just... ignores it. It's sickening.

    And then poor Mat ends up feeling guilty for Tylin's death. Newsflash, Mat dearest, if she hadn't abused you, she would not have been in the situation where the gholam could find her! :facepalm
     
  18. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    I think all of this may have been why I later took a long time to warm up to Tuon. Her attitude is bossy and demeaning at times and I didn't want another Tylin.
     
  19. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    The thing is, I don't recall Rand Lying at all. The moment Caraline found him she knew who he was. It was her idea to call him a cousin, and Rand never went there to spy, he fully went there with the intention of using his Ta'verenness to bring the rebels into the fold.

    Here is the big thing, we don't have a trustworthy view of Mat's flirtations, the only people who comment on it in any way beyond "he carouses" is Eylane and Nyneave who assume he is putting his attentions where they are not wanted and that was based purely on Nyneave's veiws that Mattrim Cauthon was a worthless trouble maker. without having POVs of the bar maids he hit on we really have zero evidence one way or another.

    We really don't have a reason to not trust him when his POV comments say "once she says no he stops chasing a girl" mostly because I think forcing a girl like that would probably remove the fun of the chase for him.

    Edit

    I need to point out the utter idiocy of this. "mat can't get food from the kitchen" he goes outside EVERY DAY, and is Rich, he can literally buy dinner before he steps foot in the palace.

    How does nobody realize this?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  20. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    About the Mat-never-chases-women-who-says-no thing, I think Egwene in one of the later books, possibly the last, actually backs up this statement. She thinks about how Mat always chase after women, but that he always have a knack for picking the girls who WANTS to be chased :look