Wheel of Time Reread - New Spring

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Atarah al'Norahn, Apr 24, 2020.

  1. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Chapter 6
    Characters

    First Mention
    Serafelle, Ryma, Jennet, Willa Mendair, Billi Mandair, Ellid, Jarna, Taringail, Anvaere, Innloine, Tsutama Rath
    First Appearance
    Setsuko, Sheriam, Lisandre, Laras, Martan, Jarna
    Character development
    Suian
    Suian neets Merean’s gaze after a sarcastic comment, Moiraine thinks such a tone would have made her blush – Suian is made of stronger stuff
    Suian takes the view that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission
    When Tamra suggests that Moiraine and Siuan could use the Power to clean the dress, she fails to get the hint and thinks Moiraine is talking nonsense when she tells her
    She embarrass Moirane and laughs uproariously
    Moiraine
    She gives Tamra an Aes Sedai answer when asked if she is still troubled by her uncle’s death. Tamra seems to be totally taken in
    When Tamra tells her and Suian that she won’t tell them not to use the Power to clean their clothes as they already know not to, Moiraine realizes she is telling then they ought to do it.
    She lies to Suian about the Aes Sedai wanting her to be queen of Cairhien
    Mysteries
    What does prayer do?

    There doesn’t seem to be any organized religion in the world, but people still offer prayers – what form does this take?
    (OK, so not really a huge mystery, but do people believe the Creator listens and acts on prayer?)
    Miscellaneous
    No one seems to connect the Aiel retreating with Laman’s death – when did people learn of the reason for the Aiel War?
    Sheriam refers to Serafelle, Ryma and Jenet by their first name, not their titles – is this common? Though Moiraine and Suian call Merean by her first name as well
    Why do Merean and Tamra assume Moiraine must be in shock? Are they so far detached from how people think and react? She does encourage the belief, but no one thinks to just ask her how she is feeling
    Suian mentions an uncle who died proving how fine a man he was – she later tells Mat the details of this death
    Laras is described as plump and more than pretty
    Moiraine’s sister Innloine has children. These would be Elayne’s cousins (Is this Caraline? Caraline refers to Elayne as her young cousin, but Cadsuane thinks of Moiraine as Caraline's cousin - this could just be the nobility considering all other nobility cousins
     
  2. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    I think Aes Sedai mostly uses their first names, because your background is not supposed to matter in the Tower. If Moiraine was constantly called Miss Damodred it would remind everyone that she was noble born, and in the time of the Aiel War, the name Damodred was not a good association :look
     
  3. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Outreach Activities Coordinator Head of the Gray Ajah Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    I think he meant why doesn't Sheriam use the Sedai after their names. Which was also what I thought when I read this, but then, I would guess that Novices and Accepted, when speaking amongs each other, do not use honorifics like that. Something like when Harry Potter calls Snape Snape and not Professor Snape I guess?
     
  4. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Yes, it just seemed odd, a very familiar way of talking, but it might just be how they talk throughout the series
     
  5. Bruce al'Kay

    Bruce al'Kay Novice Social Marketing Manager

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    Ch 6: Surprises
    The Testing anxiety speaks to me.
    Laras makes her first appearance! One of my favorite minor characters in the series.
    Interesting that Siuan is copying out the potential names of the dragon before Moiraine.
    Aes Sedai serenity is explored some here.
    The bead of ink weave is cool :)
    Moiraine as a candidate for Queen of Caihrien was always interesting to me. I can understand her not wanting it, but she doesn't ever seem to consider the possibility of the resources that position would give her to search for the dragon. Obviously she couldn't go herself, but she would have basically unlimited people to do things for her. Idk, there's also the fact that there haven't been open Aes Sedai queens, but
    Elayne pulls it off just two hundred books later.

    Ch. 7: The Itch
    Not my favorite of these chapters. What I took away from it was that while Siuan's strengths are logical and spatial, Moiraines are interpersonal and political. (Of course, that makes me think that Moiraine would have been a better Amyrlin than Siuan, but idk).

    Ch. 8: Shards of Serenity
    Moiraine figures out Tamra's searchers.
    Elaida. It's possible I wasn't reading/listening closely enough, but do we know why Elaida is obsessed with Siuan and Moiraine?
    Very intriguing that Moiraine fails at the practice over and over, yet passes the test on her first try. Maybe it comes down to her realization that if she is put out of the tower, she still has leads on the Dragon and she can search for him anyway?

    Ch. 9: It Begins
    Moiraine's prudishness as the first test.
    The moment when Moiraine has something in the testing that she isn't supposed to have mirrors Egwene's and Nynaeve's. Jordan is either recycling a trope here or building a motif. Maybe it could be that even when they are naked and vulnerable in front of sisters, they still manage to hide things?
    The Court dance weaving and fighting trollocs is cheesy but totally awesome :)

    Ch. 10: It finishes
    Moiraine's father seems more appropriate for a test to Accepted rather than Aes Sedai to me.
    The accepted treat her differently - sad.
    Siuan and Moiraine being tested and raised together makes me really suspicious of the fact that in Fal Dara no one except Verin remembers how close they were. That just doesn't seem realistic. Sheriam, Elid, Myrelle at the very least would remember, wouldn't they?
     
  6. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    I have to admit, reading about the tests are boring for me.. But that may be because I have read them so many times, and I just want to get on with the real story :p But yes, I always laugh a bit when I read the dance section :)

    I don't think Moiraine would have made a better Amyrlin than Siuan. Remember how even Moiraine notes that it just feels very natural to follow Siuans lead?

    As for people forgetting how close they are, Aes Sedai tend to not remember very well anything that happens before people become full sisters. Oh, they remember how many years it took for them to reach the different levels, but Novices, Accepteds and servants are really below notice. But yes, Sheriam at the least should have remembered this...
    On a meta level, remember that the sections in the Great Hunt was written years before New Spring came out. That is the danger of writing prequels, sometimes a few details are hard to explain...
     
  7. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Do we see Siuan have much of a sense of humor later? We knew she liked pranks, but it does seem as an Accepted she was pretty easy going.
    She also seems to learn the art of manipulating people. I’m not entirely clear yet what kind of puzzles Siuan solves vs Moiraine does, but I think she sees patterns better than Moiraine, though Tamra sending for the searchers seems like a pattern to me .
     
  8. Bruce al'Kay

    Bruce al'Kay Novice Social Marketing Manager

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    Definitely, however, I think that Moiraine's political adroitness and her practice with the game of houses makes her better for dealing with the hall and managing the squabbling factions than Siuan.

    If Siuan and Moiraine's roles had been reversed, I'm going to make a bold statement and say that Moiraine would never have been stilled and brought down, and Siuan probably would have been just as good at finding the Dragon - maybe better based on her logical aptitude. Rand might not have trusted Siuan as much as he trusted Moiraine (which wasn't very much to begin), but I think it would have been a better match for their respective strengths.
     
  9. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Bruce, I think Siuans temper would be worse than Moiraines when dealing with stubborn farmboys :lol

    And you don't need to use spoiler tags in this forum, since all who wander in this forum have read all the books ;)
     
  10. Bruce al'Kay

    Bruce al'Kay Novice Social Marketing Manager

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    Ok cool, I won't spoiler things lol.

    You're probably right about that part, but they could have used a firmer hand in a couple of different places :lol
     
  11. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Chapter 7
    Characters

    First Mention
    Aeldra Najaf, , Aisha Ravenos, Elyas, Jala Bandevin, Karile, Kerene Nagashi, Ludice Daneen, Rina Hafden, Stepin, Valera Gorovni, Waylin
    First Appearance
    Aeldra Najaf, Elyas, Jala Bandevin, Karile, Kerene Nagashi, Rina Hafden, Stepin, Waylin
    Character Development
    Moiraine
    She works out that Tamra is recruiting searchers just from having taken messages to Aisha and Kerene
    Siuan
    Despite being good at puzzles, she fails to realise what Tamra is doing
    Nature
    Animals
    Eagle
    Miscellaneous
    Warders tend to keep rooms in the Guards quarters or even the city
    A very dark man is identified as perhaps Tairen or Southern Altaran - This is more with the theme that somehow people segregated by physical characteristics (did they do this each time new nations formed, or was it just the most recent, Which nations have characteristics that can mark someone as being from there? National dress/hair style not included. Saldaea - cheeks and nose, Arad Doman - coppery skin, Southern Altara - Olive skin, Cairhien - pale and short, Arafel - pale, Tear - dark. Most have always been one country, but Arad Doman for instance was Safer and Jaramide (along with Saldaea and later part of Darmovan and Oman Dashar and most of Abayan and Indahar

    Chapter 8
    Characters

    First Mention
    Adelorna, Willim of Manaches, Shivena Kayenzi
    First Appearance
    Ellid, Myrelle
    Character Development
    Moiriaine
    Moiraine is the only one of her, Siuan, Ellid, Sheriam and Myrelle to realise that Elaida is trying to help them
    Mysteries
    What is Elaida doing
    Barely a mystery. Despite Siuan and the other's thoughts, it is pretty clear she is trying to prepare them
    Resolved
    We learn Gitara did have other fortellings – including that Tarmon Gai’don would come during the lifetime of sisters still living
    Common themes
    Acting on poor information
    We learn the source of Elaida’s hatred for Moiraine and Siuan. It is not rational - Siuan basically gets stilled, Elaida replaces her and the Tower splits all because Elaida thought that Moiraine and Siuan had told on her.

    Chapter 9
    Moiraine takes her Aes Sedai test - this wasn't particularly interesting to me
    Characters
    First Mention
    Anaiya
    First Appearance
    Character development
    Moiraine
    Nudity is a frequent part of her test -just because she is Cairhienin, or is this something the Aes Sedai picked up ont
    Anaiya
    Nature
    Animal
    Death-s head Spider, wolf
    Plants
    Blackclaw bush

    Chapter 10
    Moiraine finishes her test
    Characters
    First Appearance
    Verin
    Nature
    Animal
    Ants, Cattle, groundwasps, hornets, horseflies. Leopards, silverpike, mice
    Plants
    Turnips, broad beans, cabbage, pine nuts
    Miscellaneous
    Moiraine’s father was just under 6ft tall – very tall for a Cairhienin man
    I don't think they voted on whether she passed or not - they just said she did
     
  12. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    The lack of people remembering that Siuan and Moiraine were close friends does seem bizarre. I suppose as Moiraine was out of the Tower for nearly all the 20 years, people might think they just drifted apart, but it doesn't seem realistic
     
  13. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    An observation on chapter 4 - Atuan is one of the names called out when the accepted are trying to get ready. There is only one Atuan in the Companion, Atuan Larriset, who was an Accepted over 150 years before
     
  14. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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  15. Brynden von Brazilius

    Brynden von Brazilius Citizen

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    Toral Gaidin,

    I know its late but I would like to join in. This is my first one. I see that you are breaking down each chapter. Is there a template for re-reads?
     
  16. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    There is no template. I’m doing things based on the notes we have for The eye of the world, but really, any observation or comment is great - if you have comments on anyone else’s thoughts, add them, or if you have your own, that’s also good
     
  17. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    How much do we later see of Siuan manipulating people and playing Daes Daemar? I know with Byrne and the Andor/Murandy border, she went with brute force - no subtlety, but do we see anything to suggest this is a skill she eventually learned?
    I suppose she does manipulate the Salidar Aes Sedai into choosing Egwene - something I think would have been beyond the Siuan we see in the first few chapers
     
  18. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Yes, I think she reflects on that in a later book, how she generally used her strength and her position in the hierarchy because of that strength, to simply overwhelm others. But she can't be as bad at it as we see her in this book, or she would never have been elected Amyrlin....
     
  19. Brynden von Brazilius

    Brynden von Brazilius Citizen

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    I am with Aduiavas Sedai. I think that Siuan was actually very good at the game of houses. However she was also very strong and used that as a short cut. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Likewise, if she had been terrible at Daes Dae'mar, she never would have been able to accomplish much once she is removed from her office. If she was more selective about her application of force v guile she probably would not have had so much resentment as Amyrlin.
     
  20. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Outreach Activities Coordinator Head of the Gray Ajah Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    I would guess that maybe she saw a lot of Game of Houses during her serving as the head of the Blue's eyes and ears? She became that eventually after Cetalia right? In the beginning it might have been only patterns that she saw, but after a while, she would start understanding the maneuvering herself.