Wheel of Time Reread - New Spring

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Reread (Spoilers)' started by Atarah al'Norahn, Apr 24, 2020.

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  1. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    For simplicity, I decided to track the character appearance separately

    Chapter 11
    Overall, interesting, but it doesn’t really advance the plot
    Miscellaneous
    *In addition to the seven who come to collect them, there are the three sitters from each Ajah and two others
    *They Pass through the testing ter’angreal for the ceremony
    *The feeling of tightness from swearing the oaths does not fade for a full year
    *Neither Rafela not Leane have the Ageless look
    *The three Blue sitters are Lelaine, Anlee and Eadyth(?) Two (Lelaine and one other) are sitters twenty years later, and one is killed in the fighting when the Tower splits
    *Rafela is interested in maintaining or even bringing back ancient customs
    Character Development
    Siuan
    She tricks/manipulates Moiraine into Moiraine being raised first.
    Moiraiane
    *She had decided Blue a year before,
    *She notices when Rafela yields to Leane and thinks it strange

    Chapter 12
    I liked this chapter, we got a lot of information on the inner workings of the Tower and Aes Sedai
    Character Development
    Siuan
    Shows how good she is at puzzles and patterns
    She is also unable to stop herself showing off
    Moiraine
    She is able to puzzle out that Cetalia heads the Blue Ajah Eyes and Ears just from learning she had Siuan look at old reports
    Miscellaneous
    *Before Moiraine and Siuan, there were around 44/45 Blue Ajah Aes Sedai in Tar Valon
    *Moiraine notices Cabriana and Kairen take their lead from Anaiya. It is subtle but obvious to someone trained in the Sun Palace
    Mystery Resolved
    ;Why did Elaida defer to Meilyn
    We see why she deferred and mostly understand how it could be possible that Siuan and Moiraine hadn’t noticed it before. We do learn that from the moment that girls enter the tower, they are taught it is extremely rude to speak of someone’s strength in the Tower and discouraged from thinking of their strength in terms of anyone else’s. They must have forgot to tell Egwene and Nynaeve this.
     
    Toral Delvar, Jun 6, 2020
    #61
  2. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    I agree with Moiraine though, it is strange that they forbid them to think of their own strength in the Power, but then uses that to decide the hierarchy. Is this just so that Accepted won't start to think "high" of themselves?
     
    Aduiavas Ida, Jun 6, 2020
    #62
  3. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Director of Research and Records Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    But also, isn't this hierarchy a little weird too? Why would you listen to someone who is stronger in the Power, but hasn't been an Aes Sedai for like a year yet?

    also, it's interesting that the women from the Kin haven't noticed strange behaviours like those while being in the Tower.
     
    Ilverin Matriam, Jun 6, 2020
    #63
  4. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    I think they are probably discouraged from thinking about strength so that they don't notice the heirarchy and to a lesser extent so that they won't be thinking of their eventual standing while being taught
     
    Toral Delvar, Jun 6, 2020
    #64
  5. Leo Kian

    Leo Kian Aes Sedai

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    Yeah, I think they are discouraged so there doesn't become a hierarchy among the Novices/Accepted.

    I always thought that strength matters more because the stronger is more likely to defeat the weaker in a battle. Maybe the early days of the Tower this was how disputes were settled but they have come up with the more civilised, although in some areas unfair, way of precedence.
     
    Leo Kian, Jun 8, 2020
    #65
  6. Arella Mathara

    Arella Mathara Accepted

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    I have completely neglected this discussion, so much have been going on, sorry. I will add some thoughts and comment and get caught up here.

    And this is all spoilers, all 14 books, right?


    Why not, Toral Gaidin?


    I think she's faking it

    Yes, absolutely yes. I hate that. Trust your readers, man :lol Those who can't keep up - reread

    Was wondering the same thing. Seems unlikely they trade or hang out with Borderlanders. Could maybe be from the tuatha'an? They told the news of the fall of Malkier and updates about Lan has followed?
    I believe intent comes into it. If you have seen the Jim Carrey classic "Liar, liar" he can't even write "this pen is red", right? With the Oaths I think it's more about intent.
    I know this is in the spoiler forum, but just to be sure I put tags. In The Gathering Storm when Egwene is talking to Meidani in her rooms, Meidani can't tell her why she hasn't left the Tower. She is also unsure if she can show Egwene why. This is because she has been forced to swear a new Oath by Seaine's group. This, and other things, makes me think there is a flexibility with the Oaths. Every Sister can bend them this way and that, right? But to me this is more they bending their words to make it difficult for people and avoiding straight answers. This is often as not just because they don't want to tell people their business and to keep up the idea of the Tower as a place of mystery. The intent is not to spread lies. Get my meaning?

    My brain says stop now. Will try to add more comments at a later time. Love reading everyone's thoughts, but I have a very limited number of spoons each day, so I am very slow at contributing.

    Will add that my favorite parts about this book is also that we get a closer view of life in the Tower. This was understandably lacking in the main series, no use writing a ton about every day life, I guess, even if it is in a fascinating different world.
     
    Arella Mathara, Jun 10, 2020
    #66
  7. Brynden von Brazilius

    Brynden von Brazilius Accepted

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    I always go back to this quote, "Lan survived. He learned weapons as other children learn toys, and the blight like his mother's garden."

    Based off that I think it is likely that he spent a lot of time in the Blight and we know that Aiel also hunt Shadowspawn. They may have never spoken to him but someone in the Blight on their own would very likely get their attention.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    Brynden von Brazilius, Jun 10, 2020
    #67
  8. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    I suspect his legend has passed through pretty much every country there is, and to the Aiel via the merchants and peddlers.
     
    Aduiavas Ida, Jun 10, 2020
    #68
  9. Arella Mathara

    Arella Mathara Accepted

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    Yes, this, Aduiavas Sedai. I meant this and not the tuatha'an :giggle Like I said, brain shut down.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    Arella Mathara, Jun 10, 2020
    #69
  10. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Director of Research and Records Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    About the Aes Sedai and the Oaths... I have been thinking...

    Moiraine thinks of a lie - "Red is White", "Up is Down", something of the sort,

    but Siuan couldn't tell the lie - that she hasn't "hopped so much when an Aes Sedai says even in her Novice days".

    But then what would be the extend of writing a lie? Surelly you will be able to write something wrong on a piece of paper?
     
    Ilverin Matriam, Jun 10, 2020
    #70
  11. Arella Mathara

    Arella Mathara Accepted

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    For me it's the intent that's important, Ilverin Sedai. It's not as absolute as in the movie I mentioned, but I don't think an Aes Sedai could write something with the intention to decieve.
     
    Arella Mathara, Jun 10, 2020
    #71
  12. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    The thing where Siuan could t say it was odd. We see plenty of examples of Aes Sedai saying things that are not literally true. Hyperbole and exaggeration seem fine - I think there something like “you’ll curse the first kiss your mother stole from your father”, though I’d have to see if I could find it.
     
    Toral Delvar, Jun 10, 2020
    #72
  13. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Chapter 13
    Very little happens. Robert Jordan’s obsession with dresses to the fore
    Miscellaneous
    *Tarabon prorduces fine porcelain
    *Aes Sedai receive a stipend of 1000 crowns per year. They can get more if needed, but this is more than many people would earn in their lives

    Chapter 14
    Character Development
    Siuan
    *As soon as she is raised, she goes back to her previous habbits with language
    *Siuan gets on well with Lelaine, but not Anaiya
    Moiraine
    *Lelaine makes her nervous, but she likes Anaiya because of her warmth
    Miscellaneous
    *Blues are not allowed to wear red clothes
    *Blues and Reds oppose each other in the Hall
    *Greens and Blues have been aligned for centuries
    *Browns support the Whites against the Blues, but the Blues against the Yellows
    *The Blues have their own secret weaves
    *Moiraine had learned to channel before entering the Tower and had discovered her own weave she didn’t tell anyone about
    *We see the first time Siuan attempts to say something that is not true and is prevented by the Oaths
    Was she intentionally lying here? This seems odd to me
     
    Toral Delvar, Jun 11, 2020
    #73
  14. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    Having read the whole series, I always shudder when I read the part where Siuan and Moiraine consider letting Sheriam in on their secret. I don't know if Sheriam already is a member of the Black Ajah here (though I doubt it) but just consider what may have happened! :eek
     
    Aduiavas Ida, Jun 12, 2020
    #74
  15. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Director of Research and Records Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    I know right? I was listening to that exact part while I was out and about, I gasped and opened my eyes wide when I heard that :lol
     
    Ilverin Matriam, Jun 12, 2020
    #75
  16. Bruce al'Kay

    Bruce al'Kay Accepted

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    I was listening to that today too! The dressmaker bit made me chuckle earlier, and we had our first "folding of her arms beneath her breasts" of the reread :)

    I forgot how horrible Sierin was, also.
     
    Bruce al'Kay, Jun 12, 2020
    #76
  17. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Thinking of bringing Sheriam in is worth including in the chapter notes- I think they generally don't believe in the Black Ajah at all, not that they think it might be real, but trust her as a friend.
    Probably the same as Tamra - She calls in half a dozen (maybe more) people to search, it seems none are BA, which, unless there is something about how the Black Ajah is spread is a little unlikely (though not excessively so)
     
    Toral Delvar, Jun 12, 2020
    #77
  18. Bruce al'Kay

    Bruce al'Kay Accepted

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    It's clear that she's very careful about whom she chooses though, too, from what I remember. There could be more to why she trusts them than we realize.
     
    Bruce al'Kay, Jun 12, 2020
    #78
  19. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    They are mostly older Aes Sedai,who she has known many years
    Aisha and Meilyn were both born in 698, Valera in 748, Kerene in 793 and Cadsuane (assuming she was one) in 705
     
    Toral Delvar, Jun 12, 2020
    #79
  20. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Chapter 15
    Very little happens. We see that Malkieri are known for being extremely prideful and temperamental,but we could probably have lost the whole chapter without missing out on much
    Character Development
    Lan
    Lan does not trust Aes Sedai and cannot understand why someone would agree to be a Warder
     
    Toral Delvar, Jun 12, 2020
    #80
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