So, all those surveys...

[Sa'areah Britthorn]

Zasha - don't stop posting, but I can always use a yes-man

Seriously though, right now, this thread is not going to be shut down. I haven't seen anyone being rude, nor have I actually seen admins shutting down the criticisms.
When a request for email is posted, it normally means that those criticisms and helpful suggestions are officially logged and taken into consideration should such a survey come up, or should a survey need to be redone.
It's often just difficult to assess a tone of voice when people are trying to discuss things from different perspectives, especially if one, or both, sides are seen to be misinterpreting where the other is coming from.
I know that I can only speak for myself, but if I get sent an email with a criticism, complaint, worry.. whatever - I will respond to it. If you don't like it, that may be another issue, but you will be guaranteed a response, and it may or may not elicit a conversation with other admins/directors.

 

[Azi al'Thone]

I haven't seen anyone being rude

We could change that

 

[Sa'areah Britthorn]

We could, yeah. But we don't need to :P

 

[Raam Sho'am]

The problem with taking criticism to email isn't a lack of response. The main issue is that once these things are taken from the public arena to the private, it's far too easy to shut them down. Like it or not, this has happened before - not to me personally, but I know for a fact that critical emails have often led to a nice, polite, and completely dismissive "your concerns have been noted". Doing this publicly pretty much forces a real response.

In this particular case, there's an additional factor, which is that the survey, as well the the results, are public. As such, the criticism also has to be public. To go back to the journal analogy - errors aren't taken to private channels. They're posted in public so that everyone will be aware of them and avoid drawing hasty conclusions.

 

[Calypsa al'Nicolai]

I think the point we're at though is that the criticisms with the survey have been registered. At length. The team now knows that there are concerns regarding methodology and they will move forward with these notes in mind. Continued criticism at some point ceases to be constructive and instead serves to be little more than a forceful negative reminder to the people who put time and effort into this project.

If your current concern is regarding the need for response to e-mails, perhaps that should be a new conversation in its own and be moved out of this thread as that feels a separate issue from the topic of the survey in question.

This is not a STFU post but is more of a gentle reminder that there are real people behind these efforts who have worked hard and who have heard your words and have taken note. It's time to let everyone move forward positively.

 

[Sa'areah Britthorn]

I would actually encourage you to comment in public on a public survey... I'd just like you to email as well with the suggestions needed to fix a problem.

If we say 'it's noted' in public, that's when the misunderstandings start and we go round in circles with neither side getting anything valuable from it. With the private email, we're able to have a little extra time to formulate a better response that will actually help the situation move forward.

 

[Zashara Sho'am]

I think the point we're at though is that the criticisms with the survey have been registered. At length. The team now knows that there are concerns regarding methodology and they will move forward with these notes in mind.

I partially agree with you here. Criticisms were laid out and acknowledged. However, there were additional and unnecessary posts that were passive-aggressive and made personal attacks. Honestly, I should have let it go, because haters gonna hate.

Continued criticism at some point ceases to be constructive and instead serves to be little more than a forceful negative reminder to the people who put time and effort into this project.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. With regards to the members who did the work, no one wanted to be negative towards them. It was stated several times that they have done hard work and that they did make significant efforts, that people are not discounting their efforts. I went back and noticed that I didn't say that I appreciated the work they did in my first couple posts, and that's my mistake and I apologize to the team for not saying that outright.

If your current concern is regarding the need for response to e-mails, perhaps that should be a new conversation in its own and be moved out of this thread as that feels a separate issue from the topic of the survey in question.

This is not a STFU post but is more of a gentle reminder that there are real people behind these efforts who have worked hard and who have heard your words and have taken note. It's time to let everyone move forward positively.

Here's where I have a bit of a problem. Ubah, Dha, Erin, and Sa' all had the knowledge and the rights to responds to posts and make requests of people posting in this thread. When other members come into a thread and post things like 'gentle reminders' or 'calm down', it comes of as patronizing. Imagine if someone came and reminded you that there are real people doing work and that you should move forward positively, how would you feel? Personally, I feel annoyed that someone who's not 'in charge' is trying to take control of the situation and saying things that are out of left-field. Everyone knows there are real people behind these efforts, everyone has acknowledged that they have worked hard, the people involved have indeed heard everyone's words. Why is it necessary to bring that up? It's something that happens repeatedly and leads to the escalation of threads like this one.

-------

I would actually encourage you to comment in public on a public survey... I'd just like you to email as well with the suggestions needed to fix a problem.

If we say 'it's noted' in public, that's when the misunderstandings start and we go round in circles with neither side getting anything valuable from it. With the private email, we're able to have a little extra time to formulate a better response that will actually help the situation move forward.

Thanks for that clarification, Sa', and thanks to the Admin Department for letting this discussion continue. It really is appreciated. And if y'all feel like we should move this elsewhere then just say the word and I'll be more than happy to take it there.

 

[Calypsa al'Nicolai]

Here's where I have a bit of a problem. Ubah, Dha, Erin, and Sa' all had the knowledge and the rights to responds to posts and make requests of people posting in this thread. When other members come into a thread and post things like 'gentle reminders' or 'calm down', it comes of as patronizing. Imagine if someone came and reminded you that there are real people doing work and that you should move forward positively, how would you feel? Personally, I feel annoyed that someone who's not 'in charge' is trying to take control of the situation and saying things that are out of left-field. Everyone knows there are real people behind these efforts, everyone has acknowledged that they have worked hard, the people involved have indeed heard everyone's words. Why is it necessary to bring that up? It's something that happens repeatedly and leads to the escalation of threads like this one.

Nope, I'm not in charge and you are perfectly free to take offense and to feel annoyed. I am simply someone who sees this thread and sees the potential for hurt feelings and rather than try to take charge I threw out a general note to everyone because even us mere peons who are not in charge can look at a situation and have an opinion (mine being that a gentle reminder to be kind wouldn't go amiss). Just as you opened your mouth to share your thoughts, I opened mine and shared my thoughts. To each his or her own, I suppose. Why was it necessary to bring it up, you ask? I shared my own thoughts and said what I did because I felt it necessary to speak. Just like you shared your own thoughts and said what you did because you felt it necessary to speak. My interest in this conversation is no more or less than yours, Zashara.

To address your specific concern over my posting something like "a gentle reminder" I said that because, again as a general member of this community, I think that occasionally we are all entitled to gently remind someone, anyone, of anything that we choose, especially when we know and see that feelings are getting hurt. My apologies for hurting YOUR feelings with my comment. That was unintentional.

If someone were to say that to me directly or in the middle of a conversation that I was having with the general public I would likely stop and think. I would reflect on what I have said on what others have said. I would consider it as suggested, as a gentle reminder, and think about it. No more, no less.

That said, I do not believe that my comments are "out of left-field" and, as I seem to be saying a lot, I believe that they are no more or less valid than your own.

 

[Mirandha Laflor]

I think the point we're at though is that the criticisms with the survey have been registered. At length. The team now knows that there are concerns regarding methodology and they will move forward with these notes in mind. Continued criticism at some point ceases to be constructive and instead serves to be little more than a forceful negative reminder to the people who put time and effort into this project.

If your current concern is regarding the need for response to e-mails, perhaps that should be a new conversation in its own and be moved out of this thread as that feels a separate issue from the topic of the survey in question.

This is not a STFU post but is more of a gentle reminder that there are real people behind these efforts who have worked hard and who have heard your words and have taken note. It's time to let everyone move forward positively.

This is everything I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words to say it.

I am genuinely and with no sarcasm or derision at all saying that we, in the Dept. of Admin, hear what people are saying about the questions, wording, etc. regarding the original Bully Survey. Now, I came into the dept. after it was created so I didn't have a hand in creating the questions, but I did write up the report. And I'll apologize if it wasn't up to anyone's standards.

Is there a discussion that needs to happen regarding emailing comments/criticisms? Possibly. I just do not believe this is the thread to do it, and I think several others have already pointed that out. I think the best course of action if you have something to say on this subject is to raise it next time Mother or the Keeper announces the next Admin. Meeting.

So, if I can understand correctly, the issues that came up in this thread are:

1. Results of the survey may not be entirely accurate due to the wording of questions and the answers that were allowed.
-The Dept. of Admin. recognizes this and we will work towards fixing it in the future. If you would like to help out please email Ubah Sedai at administration@tarvalon.net. Or you can apply for any of the open positions or any position that becomes open in the future
2. Emailing comments/concerns to people seems to not satisfy.
-This is a great point and can lead to a good discussion. However, this is not the thread to hold that conversation in. I suggestion bringing it up for the next Admin meeting.
3. The way mistakes were pointed out bothered some. Others feel that's not accurate.
-People feel how they feel. It's also important to remember there are real people behind avatars. For that, I'd like to apologize to Raam for my slighly sarcastic comment up thread. It wasn't helpful. I just felt personally attacked. He may not feel that way, but that is how it was perceived.

 

[Marivea al'Corriyi]

jesus, people. Offer your services if you think the survey is crap, don't just bash stuff. And imho, the administration is taking the criticisms way too personally. :rolleyes

 

[Leese Sulan]

Everyone knows there are real people behind these efforts, everyone has acknowledged that they have worked hard, the people involved have indeed heard everyone's words. Why is it necessary to bring that up? It's something that happens repeatedly and leads to the escalation of threads like this one.

I'd say this thread is still continuing because you and a few other people are keeping it going. And that it escalated in the first place due to your initial concerns and several other individuals wanting to get the last word. I feel the initial concerns were valid, but the ongoing babble from both sides is not.

This is really not that big of a concern, everyone.

 

[Marivea al'Corriyi]

This is really not that big of a concern, everyone.

+1

 

[Myralin al'Ser]

Thank you so much for organizing all of this and letting us see the results!

Whatever your definition of bullying, or whether you think some that complain are sensitive or justified, just knowing that administration recognized the feelings of some members and put an effort forth to address them in a respectful way was heartwarming to see. I'll say that seeing the bullying survey come up gave me a renewed hope and commitment to this site that I really needed a little while ago. Getting site opinions in an organized way and proving that our feelings are taken into account to shape decisions truly makes this community amazing.

to all that worked so hard to put this together.

This!

I think this survey is a great first step. I hope that in the future we can take the foundation of this survey, add the suggestions that were brought up here, and conclude with more definitive results and a solution to the bullying issue.

 

[Miridyth Al'Landerin]

I am not a statistician nor have taken a statistics course...like ever ...so was wondering if the cause was "semantics" and if we changed the "Bullying Survey" into a "Bullying poll". Like ask the locations of where a person felt bullied aka forums, who they felt bullied them (SM, Execs, JM, etc.), their age and location to see if it is more a communication thing than rather real "bullying"...etc.

I would have liked from the "survey" is to see in what forums people felt most bullied, who was actually felt doing the bullying (SM's? Exec's? JM's?)...more in chat, versus real life events? This to me...would give the executive admins a way to look at the forums that people feel that they are being bullied in...see if we need more moderation and if it is perceived that JM's think SM's are doing most of the bullying without recourse...then we as SM's need to have a post in every ajah and company outlying what the bullying problem "is" and what we need as SM's to change this.

Does real bullying happen...sure if people think so. However, if Zasha was to tell me to STFU...I wouldn't think this was "bullying"...we are friends and honestly if she was truly mad at me...she would pm me and give me the what for. Most of us do this. We don't tend to email someone and think that they should fix things. However, I am not young, have been on the site for many years and have gone to a lot of real life events...I think that alone changes my "view" on bullying on the site. Just because someone wants to be stupid and post "You are an asshole Miridy for your post" doesn't mean that I am being bullied. It means that the poster is small minded and I can avoid his/her post and I won't put them on my christmas card list :P.

So...does bullying happen? Sure. Did this need to be surveyed or polled so that admins could see if this was an issue...yes. Was it done in a true statistical manner...have no clue. What I do know is that it was done with a good heart, good intention, and what was sent in was used for the admins to discuss to see what we could do better. At the end of the day...they did a fantastic job in trying to fix something that they thought was an issue rather than just ignoring it. Thank you all.

 

[Ubahsur Kindellaer]

A very interesting point you bring up! There were mentions in the comment sections about where one saw/felt bullying occurred. In the Admin Meeting we compared these results against the past three years of Membership Survey data regarding moderation of chat vs forums and specific forums mentions (such as CE.) We found that there was a discrepancy in that forums/chat indicated on the Bully Survey were regarded as moderated just fine by the majority of respondents. It is possible that this is due to some participating in one survey and not the other, creating an automatic bias.

For our discussion purposes, we did review those aspects. Thank you for bringing them up as I am sure others were also thinking the same things. I should have remembered to share that with the team when it came time to write up the report. I and the team are taking all suggestions into account for all our future data oriented reports.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

I partially agree with you here. Criticisms were laid out and acknowledged. However, there were additional and unnecessary posts that were passive-aggressive and made personal attacks. Honestly, I should have let it go, because haters gonna hate.

As others have asked, where do you see personal attacks? You said yourself that you wanted examples.

Here's where I have a bit of a problem. Ubah, Dha, Erin, and Sa' all had the knowledge and the rights to responds to posts and make requests of people posting in this thread. When other members come into a thread and post things like 'gentle reminders' or 'calm down', it comes of as patronizing. Imagine if someone came and reminded you that there are real people doing work and that you should move forward positively, how would you feel? Personally, I feel annoyed that someone who's not 'in charge' is trying to take control of the situation and saying things that are out of left-field.

Some people have an innate desire to try to head things off if they feel things are getting heated. It isn't meant to be patronizing. You are taking it way too personally. But your posts actually do come across as STFU. You don't even bother with the "passive" part of the aggressive. A person doesn't have to be "in charge" to try to keep things smoothed. And just because a person is "in charge" (ie forum moderator) doesn't give one the right to tell people to STFU.

I think people have made their points. And I don't see it going anywhere but downhill at this point when it's become a discussion about who's being rude to whom. :rolleyes

 

[Sa'areah Britthorn]

Em. People HAVE made their points. Those points were addressed, and the conversation moved on to other things. Bringing up old conversations isn't helping any.
If anyone has anything else to say ABOUT THE SURVEY, they're welcome to do so.

 

[Raam Sho'am]

Hmm. One last suggestion. As I mentioned much earlier in this thread, part of the problem is the lack of a clear definition of bullying. As we've seen here and in other threads, there's a very broad spectrum of definitions of the word among members of this site. As such, I'd recommend one of two courses of action:

1. Run two separate surveys. In the first, ask members for their definition of bullying. Once you've gathered enough responses, try to formulate a coherent definition and run a second survey to see if people have witnessed bullying based on that definition; you can also ask for feedback on the definition you come up with.

2. Have the officers/board come up with the definition. This will require research on their part, obviously. Once they have a definition in place, run the same second survey. Again, feedback regarding the definition would be a good idea.

In either case, the second survey, regarding actual instances of bullying, would have to be built mostly on "based on this definition..." questions.

That's it, I guess.

 

[Serenla Tamowith]

As I mentioned much earlier in this thread, part of the problem is the lack of a clear definition of bullying.

Agreed. We have a conversation going in Exec about the definition of bullying as relates to our site.