So, all those surveys...

[Zashara Sho'am]

While the report may not be up to publishable standards in the professional community, I think it is a very big leap in the right direction and a laudable report of something very important to the community. I don't believe at all that the data isn't worthy because it's flawed. Personally I'm OK with a survey with bias towards more action against bullying.

It's obvious Mirandha put a lot of effort into the report. That's awesome. More data is good data, especially when peers can help with the process to weed out the very things that are being brought up.

Plus, classically the "email your criticism" falls into the abyss never to be seen again. It has since the dawn of time. This isn't a new revelation. No offense.

Actually, this community *is* professional. It's a 501(c)3 non-profit organization under the US tax code. Even if it wasn't professional, we should always aim to do the best that we can with the information that we have. You can not draw certain conclusions off flawed data and analysis. What if the report actually shows that there is *less* bullying than there actually is? If you saw my analysis above, I showed that you can make a case for 24% or 40% of people seeing bullying in chat. If all we wanted to know was if there more action against bullying necessary, a simple yes/no poll would suffice. Clearly, the administration is looking for more than that.

Additionally, it's obvious to everyone that Dha and the rest of the team worked hard on this report. Indeed, the team did the best they could with what they had to work with. Just because there are flaws doesn't mean that they did not do significant legwork, nor does it mean their work is completely invalid. It also does not mean those that have criticisms of the methodology are unappreciative of the work that has been done.

Saying that "more data is good data" is untrue. In many cases, a flood of irrelevant data obscures the important information. One of the current problems in biomedical research is that the technology is advanced enough to yield enormous amounts of data; however, we are unable to accurately decipher that data and draw significant conclusions. Collecting that data serves no purpose except to waste time and resources. That's not to say that the data that has been collected by the survey is a waste, more that the thought process behind collecting additional data is flawed.

Like Asandra said, just because something isn't a new revelation doesn't mean it isn't a valid concern. If people fall silent on this subject then it implies that it is not a concern. There can be no change unless there is a reason given for that change to happen. It really does seem like every time these kinds of concerns are raised, they are diverted to e-mail or shut down as getting "too heated", "too personal", "unproductive", or a number of other reasons. Then, we get a rehash of the same conversation the next time an issue comes up.

 

[Adolla Ceryia]

501(c)7

 

[Kelgan al'Moranwin]

Plus, classically the "email your criticism" falls into the abyss never to be seen again. It has since the dawn of time. This isn't a new revelation. No offense.

I think his point here was not directed at those with criticisms but at those with e-mails.

The conversation that we're having here is, it seems to me, one that needs to be had, but again I note that there doesn't seem to be a place to have it, and it seems fairly clear at this point that the community needs such a place as sending concerns to e-mail is no longer viewed as a satisfactory solution (though I have always found the execs to be quite responsive, even if the response is "no"). This is all I will say on the matter here.

I do appreciate the work done here. Even with any methodological flaws, this is sure to be useful.

 

[Zashara Sho'am]

501(c)7

It's a good thing that I'm not involved with the professional aspects of the Tower, now isn't it?

 

[Pol Rohanson]

Thanks for the time and work you all put into this.

 

[Troy Valthaven]

I just finished skimming the membership survey and it was fairly well executed. If I had a complain, it would be that the charts and graphs don't have titles on them, therefor it took a little bit longer to determine what the image was there to represent.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

I think several of the points brought up are well founded in regard to how the numbers work out.

On a topic as subjective as bullying, there isn't exactly going to be objective data in many of the responses, but I think that objective, in this case, means the Execs and their ability to look at the results. It gives them something separate from themselves to look at instead of relying solely on personal experience for a starting point on policy. That is how I read the response about gathering objective data. But I see how that might be misunderstood.

This type of survey was new for the Exec team. I am sure that helpful suggestions on improvement are welcomed. I also think they are, indeed, needed. I am not knowledgeable enough in the field to offer my services, but I have seen several suggestions that seem like they might help improve the survey itself as well as the interpretation of the data. The best example is probably the one where people who don't frequent chat should not be included in the group of people whose results are recorded about what they do or don't see in chat.

As for emails, I have actually found the Exec team to be pretty responsive to emails over this past year at least. Sometimes it takes a while, but I've always gotten a response. This is definitely improved over earlier years. It also allows a conversation of suggestion/question/answer to get going. It's harder to do the back and forth in a thread.

Thank you to Ubah and Mirandha for your hard work on this, and I know this is only a part of the work that has gone into the use of this survey. Thanks to all the Execs for doing your best to help make the site both professional and a home. :clap

 

[Mellaine Murrai]

I get the points that the survey wasn't done the way some of you would have done it. There is a way to express your opinions and beliefs and a way NOT to express them. Seems to me some need a lesson in that.

As for the aspect of emailing in your concerns, I have NEVER had an email not responded to in a timely manner. I may not have always liked the response but I have always received one.

I appreciate the hard work that's been put into the survey. It's something that needed to be addressed and even if the results aren't up to what you think they are...it gave people the chance to express their concerns by making comments. THAT is probably more valuable than anything we've seen in those results. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Raam Sho'am]

Apparently, pointing out specific mistakes is now the wrong way to express opinions?

I honestly don't understand where you're coming from. There have been no personal attacks. No threats, insults or inappropriate posts. Hell, there hasn't even been any mild rudeness. As Jalen said, criticism of flawed methodology is not a personal attack against those who employed it.

And while it may be nice that the survey gave people a chance to express their concerns, that was not the stated objective.

 

[Mellaine Murrai]

Pointing out specific mistakes is fine. It's how it's being said that's not fine.

 

[Raam Sho'am]

Again I ask, what do you mean? Can you point out some examples?

 

[Leese Sulan]

Why is this being argued still? There were flaws, they've been pointed out, I'm sure the point has been more than made.

 

[Lauraine al'Thone]

Thanks for the time and work you all put into this.

This is all that really needs to be said ^

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Exactly. I think the point being made in several different ways by different people may start to feel like ganging up. Nothing really sticks out as rude. But suggestions for improvement probably should be sent via email, as well as offers of help.

 

[Asandra al'Terra]

Pointing out specific mistakes is fine. It's how it's being said that's not fine.

Mellaine, I don't know you, but I honestly don't understand what problem you could possibly have with the criticisms that are being offered.

Jalen, Ram, that whole gang - they're my friends, but I still want to smack them upside the head whenever they're rude asshats. I have no desire to inflict physical harm on them this time, because they are not being rude asshats at this point; they're stating clearly, concisely, and politely what their issues with the methodology are. Perhaps you're upset that they're not sugar-coating it more? In that case - I don't see why they would have to. We're all adults (or, well, most of us are, anyway). Everyone should learn to take well-deserved criticism.

Anyway, I don't know why I keep returning to this thread as -- like Ariana pointed out -- we're just going in circles now.

 

[Zashara Sho'am]

Ariana:

Apparently, there is a feeling that the manner in which things were said is not appropriate. Strangely, specific examples of inappropriate behavior were omitted from the post in which such an accusation was made. A clarification regarding exactly what was meant rather than vague posts that allude to perceived wrongs would be much appreciated.

 

[Zashara Sho'am]

Exactly. I think the point being made in several different ways by different people may start to feel like ganging up. Nothing really sticks out as rude. But suggestions for improvement probably should be sent via email, as well as offers of help.

Yeah, and telling people to STFU when they have criticisms is ganging up too.


As are the other passive-aggressive statements made against people who dare to make criticisms, which many people have made in this thread. Seriously, condescendingly posting with an emoticon or trying to imply that people are ungrateful jerks, when they are anything but, is ridiculous.

ETA: I'm sure this will be used as an excuse to shut down this thread, as has happened before. However, I'm sick of people trying to cast aspersions on my character, and that of my friends. If all the Tower wants is yes-men, then please say so and I'll stop posting (I can't speak for the others).

 

[Drake O' Neeus]

Actually, this community *is* professional. It's a 501(c)3 non-profit organization under the US tax code. Even if it wasn't professional, we should always aim to do the best that we can with the information that we have. You can not draw certain conclusions off flawed data and analysis. What if the report actually shows that there is *less* bullying than there actually is? If you saw my analysis above, I showed that you can make a case for 24% or 40% of people seeing bullying in chat. If all we wanted to know was if there more action against bullying necessary, a simple yes/no poll would suffice. Clearly, the administration is looking for more than that.

Additionally, it's obvious to everyone that Dha and the rest of the team worked hard on this report. Indeed, the team did the best they could with what they had to work with. Just because there are flaws doesn't mean that they did not do significant legwork, nor does it mean their work is completely invalid. It also does not mean those that have criticisms of the methodology are unappreciative of the work that has been done.

Saying that "more data is good data" is untrue. In many cases, a flood of irrelevant data obscures the important information. One of the current problems in biomedical research is that the technology is advanced enough to yield enormous amounts of data; however, we are unable to accurately decipher that data and draw significant conclusions. Collecting that data serves no purpose except to waste time and resources. That's not to say that the data that has been collected by the survey is a waste, more that the thought process behind collecting additional data is flawed.

Like Asandra said, just because something isn't a new revelation doesn't mean it isn't a valid concern. If people fall silent on this subject then it implies that it is not a concern. There can be no change unless there is a reason given for that change to happen. It really does seem like every time these kinds of concerns are raised, they are diverted to e-mail or shut down as getting "too heated", "too personal", "unproductive", or a number of other reasons. Then, we get a rehash of the same conversation the next time an issue comes up.

Are you suggesting that the tower should be held to the same academic standards as something like The American Journal of Medicine simply because it's become an official non-profit organisation? Because that's what professional statistic data means to me. Something akin to professional survey companies or publishable in a scientific journal. Not a bullying survey of an online book club. I find that to be quite a stretch to have such requirements, at best. I think its a great lot of good information, even if wasn't collected or sorted as good as it could have been. Even grossly under actuality, 25 or 40% is a huge number.

Also, please tell me how in this case, more data is necessarily bad and what of the presented report is irrelevant. It's nice that biomedical research provides huge amounts of data, but I fail to see how that is relevant in this case.

And what Kelgan Gaidin said. I seem to have been misunderstood about the abyss.

on a side note this is posting from my wii u I have no idea how it will look or turn out. D:

 

[Kessa Toireann]

Thank you so much for organizing all of this and letting us see the results!

Whatever your definition of bullying, or whether you think some that complain are sensitive or justified, just knowing that administration recognized the feelings of some members and put an effort forth to address them in a respectful way was heartwarming to see. I'll say that seeing the bullying survey come up gave me a renewed hope and commitment to this site that I really needed a little while ago. Getting site opinions in an organized way and proving that our feelings are taken into account to shape decisions truly makes this community amazing.

to all that worked so hard to put this together.

 

[Rehtaeh al'Navi]

Fascinating!!! Thanks for all the work that went into these