2015 Re-Readalong: Eye of the World and The Great Hunt

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Mafia Admin Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    Geez, Min is such a bitch to Egwene here. "You dropped him for the Tower, why should you care if I pick him up?" Yes, she is supposed to have absolutely no feelings at all for someone she's known and thought she was going to marry for basically her whole life. Not to mention, Egwene didn't really drop him for the Tower, her and Rand both knew that because he might go mad they couldn't continue under the assumption they'd be together.

    I really dislike Min starting from about this point. She's incredibly obsessive about Rand and becomes a much worse person for it.
     
  2. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50


    From that description it sounds like a Grey Man. Which is why he was never caught even though the battlement he was on was crowded. People's eye would have just slid off him.
     
  3. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    Oh, I hadn't considered that! That makes a lot of sense.
     
  4. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    This, absolutely!!

    Also Wil, I'd never really picked that up about the archer in Fal Dara. But it being a Gray Man makes perfect sense.
     
  5. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    I liked Min's response to Egwene. Egwene dropped him, so there really was no reason why Min couldn't pick him up
     
  6. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    What I wouldn't give to know what's going through Egwene's head during that scene...
     
  7. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    I agree with Toral, I'm 100% behind Min. Though I'm not a fan of her later, because of the way she latches onto Rand and gets obsessed with him.

    I cheered when the freed damane punched the sul'dam too. :joy
     
  8. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    I don't think she was being fair to Egwene in the slightest. I appreciate that she doesn't get access to Egwene's thoughts like we do, but at the same time, it was hardly like Egwene just woke up one morning and went "Oh I'm going to be Aes Sedai and Rand can channel, so screw our history, I don't love him anymore." :look She eventually realises that she and Rand have both changed, and that she loves him more like a brother than a potential husband. But equally, remember Egwene's Accepted test. She was *happily* married to Rand, with a daughter. She could have been happy with him, and she is letting all that go. It takes her until pretty much the Stone of Tear to really admit that. I think Min is very casual in throwing around wounding words. She does a load of stupid things for her "love" of Rand, but for me, that unnecessary cruelty to Egwene was the first.
     
  9. Murun

    Murun

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    I am also with Min, although she isn't really nice in the confrontation with Egwene. But then, she is on edge, as anyone would be after what happened.
    Fact is, Egwene made a head over heart decision right at the Eye of the World, and now she is kind of paying for that. The love is still there - like Min and Elayne, and unlike Nyn, she feels the pull of Rand - and now she is confronted with the consequence of her denial.
    And please, no tears: Rand and Eg would never have made a happy couple. Perhaps at Emonds Field, but not in the real world. Just imagine ...

    I had (and still have) a heavy workload these days, so I did not comment on the individual chapters. My overall impression was "now finally, this hunkering overloaded truck is gathering speed!" I loved to see Perrin doing his part (and keeping his secret), and I loved seeing Nynaeve making & carrying out a plan that works. Like Rand in the parallel world, she is pushed into a leadership role, and she performs all right. And Rand being serene enough to do´just the decent thing when Intar tells him about beimg a darkfriend, that's another highlight.

    @Ealandrelle Melyma: "loves him like a brother" - Oh no! She doesn't welcome Min as a suitable sister in law, it's just bitter, stinging jealousy she feels.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  10. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Mafia Admin Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    My problem with Min here is that there is definitely the impression she's being deliberately cruel to someone who's supposed to be her friend. I mean, Egwene walks in on what is more or less a pretty inappropriate scene in her mind. Basically, Rand is her ex, more or less, and Egwene sees Min cuddling with him, and Min just says well you shouldn't have a problem with this because you left him.

    People break up for a lot of reasons, but it usually takes some time before they can accept someone else being with their ex. Especially if it's a friend. And then Min rubs it in her face. It's deliberately angry and bitchy.

    I think my problem with Min and Rand is that Min, because of her visions, is very entitled to Rand. She majorly objectifies him by giving him no say in being around her or wanting to be around Egwene (keep in mind in the next chapter that it's implied Min's words were what made Egwene want to leave before Rand woke up, since she looks really guilty when she tells Rand that) because she knows she's destined to love him. The whole thing just bothers me.
     
  11. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    I think Min's words were harsh, but at this stage I still was/am in Egwene-hating mode so I don't have much sympathy for her. :look She might have been feeling overly defensive too, having just been found in bed with him and then to have Egwene tell her that neither of them can really have him, when she KNOWS differently from her visions.
     
  12. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    ...I've just realized that there's more to this discussion than I realized because I've not finished the last bit of the book. My opinions have all been based on the earlier conversation between Min, Elayne, and Egwene.

    (And this is why I re-read. I forget these things happen. :lol )
     
  13. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    My problem with Egwene is her arrogance here. She decides that because Rand can channel, she can't have Rand, so she tries telling other people (Min and Elayne specifically) that they can't have him either, and if they think differently, they are wrong
     
  14. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    It's like Egwene thinking "All who can channel can't get sweethearts and kids"...
     
  15. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    I think Rand's comments that "some don't even sound like names" is a bit silly. I get Jordan was trying to convey that they came from a different age, but given the huge variation in names we actually see, and especially considering he has just had months of exposure to a much greater variety of names than when growing up, it doesn't seem a realistic assesment.
    Also, around 100 heroes? And Rand thought there would be more? How many stories are there
     
  16. Ryu Shadowborn

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    TGH : 19

    So what was Lanfear's plan with the Banner, okay Rand has it...is she like going to staple it to his horse and get him soundly Stilled and probably Murdered?

    Rand shows some brains here though, he sneaks in swipes the Horn and the Dagger and GTFOs, I love that Loial shows some aptitude for Stealth here, I wish we knew more about Ogier, especially the Gardeners that served the Seanchan, I sorta felt it was a shame the Randland Ogier and the SeanChan Ogier never had screen time together.

    TGH: 20

    Lanfear piles the crap on here, I wonder if she is trying to use Compulsion here, I always wondered why if she wanted Lews Therin so badly did she just not Mind Control her way to it, there seemed to be several ways to go about it.

    Also Rand seems to react to the Chodean Kal without the access key, could one use that Sa'angreal without the key if you are close too it?

    TGH: 21

    Not much here to talk about, however there is one bit of curiosity about the setting. Why is it so strange that a Lord would learn to play an instrument? Sure performing in public would be something of a social no no, however as affluent people with too much time and money wouldn't learning music be a normal thing as a child, because “Classical Music is high class and all”

    TGH: 22

    Do Vandene and Adeleas know what Moraine is doing? Constantly researching the Dragon and the Prophecies would certainly tip off people who are constantly digging through such texts to what the person is searching for.

    TGH 23

    The first accepted Test we see, I wonder if Mr. Jordan changed who would be the female of Bathamel and Aginor, it would put Nynaeve sensing Aginor's channeling into the area of foreshadowing. It could be foreshadowing anyways.

    I find it odd that Nynaeve's fears about the two rivers are what they are, I doubt that the Emmon's Field folk would at all brook the sort of Wisdom that is shown here. Hilariously a Coplin is the Wisdom when next we see The Two Rivers. For all the talk about Coplin and Congers, the put one into a very important position to the village.

    TGH 24

    Here we see the first bits of why Elaida turns out to be an absolutely wretched leader, She is Lawful Good, this is one of the major things about Roleplaying in DnD, what is the real meaning of Lawful Good, do you rate the Lawful portion higher than the Good portion, a great deconstruction of the conversation is Miko from Order of the Stick, who is a very big Lawful character, but fails in almost every instance of the Good side of things.

    TGH 25

    Hi Thom, I knew from the first time I read you “dying” you were not dead, I had no real evidence beyond “that would be a waste of a character” but it felt that his story was not over.

    And I was right, also Haha Thom you are in the tangle of the pattern and involved with 3 Tav'eren not going to be “out of it” cleanly unless someone balefires you.

    TGH 26

    Rand learns a little more of the Prophecies of the Dragon, have we ever got the Prophecies put in full? I wonder if there is any that was left out by the end of Memory of Light.

    TGH 27

    Two things here, Who were the Trollocs here working for, it seemed awfully convienent for Lanfear that Padan Fain would send his Trollocs in just when Lanfear was there to bail Rand out.

    Unless Lanfear was actively Stalking Rand the entire time.

    Also how exactly were people holding up Trollocs as if they were “Puppets” like think of a living thing being held up on five poles, and think of a Trolloc having the actual balance required to pull off looking like a Puppet..and staying on the poles.

    TGH 28

    Perrin tells Ingtar about being a Wolfbrother, in retrospect it is not surprising that Ingtar would instantly trust Perrin about talking to wolves since he is a Dark Friend, and we find out about “Shadow Killer” and “He who comes with the Dawn”

    We have the first indications that Aiel have Channelers that are not connected to the tower itself, it is quite odd that Aes Sedai never went into the waste to explore, especially the Browns.

    TGH 29:

    Bornhald : I wonder where the Children would have went if Bornhald had not died here, while assuming wrong that the Seanchan are dark friends, he does manage to see that the Children are causing strife in Almoth Plain instead of helping.

    Though you can't blame him for thinking the Seanchan might be allied with the Dark considering they use Grolm, which seem to be shadowspawn, there is mention of Luthar Pendrag clearing the Seanchan's Blight, I wonder if afterwards they tamed the less intelligent shadowspawn, or if During.

    Domon : Domon's seal gets Seal-Jacked by Turak, interestingly this subplot sorta went nowhere. Turak dies later, Domon runs off to another city and the Seal gets broken. Neither find out what it really is.


    TGH 30

    I would laugh here too, Ingtar and Co arrive just a bit too late, I wonder of this was a weave in the pattern in order to Force Rand into following, giving him all the tools he needs to do so in the same stroke as taking the Dagger away.

    TGH 31

    I wonder how Verin managed to browbeat the guards to tell her were Rand is, something about the slimy little vermin screamed Dark Friend to me, but it could have as easily just been her Flashing the Ring and glaring at him till he wet himself.

    But come on! He screams “I would serve the Lord of the Dark if he gave me half a cookie”

    TGH 32

    Partytime, not much to talk about here other than Rand nearly getting himself in trouble with a bunch of Cougars.

    I wonder what Lanfear would have done to one of those Ladies had they bullied their way into Rand's bed.
     
  17. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    Not a lot of notes for the last few chapters. Not sure if I missed stuff, or if there just wasn't a lot to get. A lot of actiony stuff in the last few chapters.

    Chapter 41
    Mat's the first to call Rand Aes Sedai.

    Chapter 45
    I cheered w/ Elayne when the free damane punched the sul'dam.
    Who was the freed woman?
    Rand himself twists Verin's words regarding Seanchan knowing when a man is channeling.

    Chapter 46
    The cords of Rand's life? What is this? Do we see it anywhere other than here?
    And we finally find out for sure why Ingtar was so determined to get the Horn.

    Chapter 47
    Mat makes an executive decision to sound the Horn.
    Rand: "He heard a hundred names." -- Because he's also tied to the Horn and so knows the Heroes by all their names?
    "We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner."

    Chapter 48
    Egwene, Elayne, and Min felt Rand pulling at them, but Nynaeve didn't. Threads holding them all together more closely than those holding together the important Last Battle people.
     
  18. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Citizen

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    TGH : 33

    This is one of the reasons I think that the taint of the ways is more connected to Mashadar than I do the Taint on the one power, Machin Shin actively hates the the forces of the dark as well as the forces of the light, but it allows Fain to go through unharmed, and now actively seeks Rand out to attack him.

    TGH : 34

    Thom's point of view

    and we have the events that begin the pattern of “Places Rand goes go straight to crap really fast” you know I wonder if Rand made a mistake in how he used the First of Mayene, she was fully loyal to him without him having to bully or manipulate her, was incredibly cunning and intelligent and had experience ruling. In retrospect he should have made much more use of her as an adviser.

    Also of note, Barthanas was murdered as well, torn to pieces, was it by a Trolloc? Why would a Trolloc kill a high ranking Dark Friend who was in a good position of power.

    Fain

    Not much to comment here, we learn a bit more of The Seanchan, and that the Royalty have accurate information on things such as the Horn of Valere.

    TGH : 35

    We see more of the Ogier lifestyle, and meet even more Aiel. I still wonder how the Aiel and the Shienarans have such bad blood, did the Shienarans try to invade the waste? We know the Aiel come out to trade with the Ogier in the Stedding near the Wastes, mostly for Sungwood, which I am guessing they make bows from (spears I imagine are far too disposable to waste Sungwood on.)

    TGH : 36

    So waygates are a No-go for Rand now, completely and utterly, Hurin shows a good bit of smarts here by suggesting the portal stones.

    TGH : 37

    I want to see the lives that Perrin and Mat lived, as well as Verin..and Ingtar after the Portal Stone trip, he redoubles his frenzy to find the Horn, he was slipping a bit, but after this he goes over the edge.

    About Perrin, if he lived thousands of lives, he had to have seen a few where he did not go mad from the wolves and managed to find stability, or did the Dark One take a hand in things and only show futures that ended poorly?

    TGH : 38

    Liandrin shows up, says a bunch of things that are technically true, “Rand is in danger” “Sometimes you have to work with people you hate” which are both fully true, heck even in this mission she has to work with a High Lady of the Seanchan..who without even meeting she despises
    She also looks to know much more about what the Seanchan do than others do, so the Dark -can- share information and work together, shame it all falls apart after about ten minutes of teamwork most times though.

    TGH: 39

    I love Liandrin's arrogance here “I will take care of the evil wind that eats Bale Fire” yeah I bet, the moment they see a gust she would shove the Novices into the wind and run while screaming for the dark one to save her.

    TGH: 40

    Betrayal! Also are all the Seanchan here Dark Friends? Or are they as a people who whipped that they won't at all mention one of the blood working with a Marath'Damane, letting her go..and talking about “the master they both serve” Oh I wonder if they are working for the Lord of the Dark..

    This more than anything is why I hate Tyrannical Empires, you create a billion layers of bureaucracy and the normal people don't even think about talking back especially in moments they really need to do so.

    TGH: 41

    Rand has a dream of Ishamael, and the forsaken leaves burn marks in the chair in Rand's room (man that is a lot of ins) I wonder if the village they run into here is the same one that Bornhald was in far earlier in the book.

    TGH: 42

    I hate how Damane are treated, I am seriously sad we never get to see the Seanchan fall apart.

    So remember how I was talking about “more subtle” uses of the power, This is one of them, Nynaeve uses a weave that unlocks a Damane from her Sul'Dam.

    Think about the in battle uses of it, especially with the way that we hear “unleashed” Damane acting self destructive and wild you could almost completely negate the Leashed ones, now mind you Egwene does do this much later in the series I think, however doing this later would have been an incredibly smart idea, you know..when you are pinned down in an alley way by several Damane, likely one of them would have freaked out and self destructed, in the very least it would cause enough chaos to let yourself escape.

    TGH: 43

    Domon! Nothing like setting up a plan that ends up meaningless, though I do wonder would Domon have recognized Lan's ring? He spent time in the borderlands, enough to know that Trollocs are fully real, would a guy who collects old stuff and is interested in history know what A golden crane ring meant?

    TGH: 44

    I remember getting shiver's from Verin choosing the 5 who would go, it was completely logical in most ways, especially with what she knows (she knows about Perrin's real abilities at this point I think?) but the whole thing has a feel of a lace of destiny(is that the phrase that Moraine used in when she learned of the Eye of the World in book one?) The Dragon, The one meant to blow the horn, the banner man for the horn, someone to sacrifice himself to let the rest escape..and one to witness it all.

    Verin knows of the Karaethon Cycle does she not? We all know she is much more perceptive than she appears, does she notice the weave of the pattern forming? Loial said in book 1 he can feel the pattern forming around Rand as he told his story, the Tav'eren tugging the weave of the threads, do you think he can feel it? GOD I want a whole second set of Wheel of time books from other characters perspectives, just the major chapters..I wanna know what Verin was thinking here...burn it, Give us an entire set of books about Verin's side of the plot, her choices seem like a full set up, the 3 who must be there, Hurin..and a Dark Friend who desperately wants to return to the light.

    -Cough- I went on a rant there didn't I?

    Bornhold, I really wish you had not done what you did here, or chose a more level headed man to do it instead of Byar, it would have saved a great deal of trouble later on.

    TGH: 45

    Rand has his first real fight, as much as I hate the Seanchan culture, I do love the lords. They seem soft and weak, but when it comes down to it they are as dangerous if not more than their best guards, and it makes sense that the blood would be blademasters, Luthar was probably a Blademaster before he went across the sea so the concept of the Heron mark may have come across with him.
     
  19. Murun

    Murun

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    Well,women who can channel are dangerous, something needs to be done about them. The AS kind of leash themselves to the 3 Oaths, which doesn't stop them from being a political power and meddling everywhere. Only mistake: the Seanchan should allow the damane to breed - remember Sheriam's argument earlier about the ability being lost "because of culling the flock"?

    I honestly don't get what you are talking about. In TGH, it's Egwene overreacting & causing trouble; in TPoD and TGS it is rather the case that damane without their sul'dam go passive and are helpless. On other occasions, damane just do as they are told and do it quite effectively (think of the end of TPoD - taking Ebou Dar; or the battle at Malden in KoD, or again the raid on the Tower in TGS, "so skilled with those deadly weaves", Adelorna Sedai thinks).

    Oh yes, she knows what she's doing ...

    ... and whatever perfectionist Lan says, Rand has learned quite a bit, more than not stabbing himself in the foot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
  20. Ryu Shadowborn

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 45-50

    TGH 46

    Nyneave - Hey remember that comment about “Seanchan possibly having issues if someone were to use their ostrich mentality when it comes to the blood gainst them?” well I wonder how much that helped Nyneave here, imagine if someone actually took half a second to look at the damane they are chained to, SOMEONE MIGHT RECOGNIZE SETA!

    *cough*

    I am okay with cultures of evil existing in Fantasy, but holy crap do some of the things they do annoy the crap out of me. The Sith in Star Wars press that button all the time. “You are late for school! Force choke you to death, because we are Sith and we are strawmen of Social Darwism” was a thing I saw in The Old Republic once.

    By the way I could go on that rant for a good page and a half, I am glad the Forces of the Shadow in Wheel of time never did that, they were self serving backstabbers, but outside of Lanfear they never did the “Kill minions for the lulz” thing.

    Bayle – I do like that the guy was willing to stay for as long as he could, I imagine the breaking point ther was “Holy crap the heroes of the ages are showing up and setting ships on fire, and the Dark One is in the sky” which nobody could blame him for, I probably would have GTFO'ed if I were him.

    Bornhald - LEEEEROOOYYYYY!

    Rand – Oh Ingtar, you died way to early in the series, I had hoped somehow you survived as a Seanchan prisoner for several other books and you would show up again to have your Oath to the Dark One broken like the Dragon was supposed to be able to do.

    It is odd, For all of the talk of the prophecies and “breaking oaths” he doesn't really do that, outside of the Shinarens who really don't matter in the larger sense of the story outside of Masemea, but that had nothing to do with his Oaths to Lord Agalmar and more about him going Coo Coo for CocoPuffs, but we never see the Oath Breaking happen, The Aiel did not really have an Oath to anyone, the Randland people were muscled into serving him and did not break any real Oaths, Few Seanchan ever sided with Rand.

    One would think at least once through the series he would have freed a bunch of darkfriends from their Oath to the shadow.

    However 10/10 for Intgar going out like a boss, there is a comic book reviewer named Linkara, he once said “If you are going to kill a character, they need to die in a moment that makes you think “That was the single most awesome moment that character has had” and Ingtar at least gets that, and double points for an absolutely sad conversation beforehand.

    TGH 47

    I love Mat here. “We are going to die anyways, Screw it lets try the horn”

    Also I am 1 MILLION Percent Disappointed that Ingtar did not end up a hero of the horn, the foreshadowing here was far too perfect for 12 books later Ingtar showing up when the Horn is blown again.

    I understand Jaim Farstrider and Oliver getting a moment, but Ingtar deserved to come back, and lead the Borderlanders in a charge too.

    In regards to Ishamael vs Rand Round 2, not much to say here, it makes sense that even beating a Blademaster earlier Rand would have trouble with Ishamael and a staff, with what we learn of Sword vs Staff later on.

    TGH 48

    Not much to talk about here, Dating Drama which was never something I cared too much for, the whole “who will Rand end up with” never really bit at me, since outside of Androl and Pevara..romance in Wheel of Time is not the best thing I have ever seen.

    Well, Nyneave and Lan are up there too I suppose they have down points but the payoffs late in the series are worth it. Nyneave being all Aes Sedai with him about going to Tarwin's Gap and basically raising the Golden Crane for him was a great bit that payed off beautifully.

    TGH 49 – 50

    The story winds down here, Rand gets his first dragonsworn, and heads into the mountains for Winter.

    So, what you are saying here is that Because of how a woman is made up genetically, they should be turned into slaves..and forced to breed, cause that is kinda the implication there, because Aes Sedai go down the path of Aes Sedai by choice, that is not at all a good comparison to what the Seanchan do.