Things you liked, or didn't [WHOLE BOOK SPOILERS]

[Tazren Talamar]

Has she aged, per se? We have seen very old Aes Sedai like Verin and Cadsuane herself ride around the country on horseback, and sleep rough. They sometimes mention feeling their age, but not to the extent of (say) walking with a stick or even having trouble keeping up with younger traveling companions. It's also mentioned that grey hair is a sign of truly extreme age. All of this makes me think that they've really only aged into the equivalent of their fifties at most. The Oath Rod doesn't cause faster aging; it limits maximum lifespan.

I see that as a result more of the very perfect health they'd live in, with constant Healing of diseases and other things that accompany old age generally, unless the One Power itself guarantees graceful aging. There are people who are above 70 and 80 and are still very spry and healthy.

Since swearing on the Oath Rod tightens their skin physically, to me, that's what prevents peopele from getting wrinkles. Their bodies are aging, which the gray hair indicates.

Age for a channeler depends on the One Power. The Oath Rod even seems to take this into consideration, since almost all of the most ancient Aes Sedai we see are very strong in the One Power (Adeleas and Vandane being the only exceptions). Most Aes Sedai die somewhere between 200 and 250 years. Cadsuane is ~290, Romanda is the same age. In New Spring, Meilyn was considerably older than Cadsuane, all three very strong channelers. Gitara was rumoured to be over 300, and being a Keeper, it's reasonable to assume that she was at least above average strength in the OP (since most people to hold positions of power in the White Tower are fairly strong).

If the Oath Rod is a ticking timebomb, why would it take One Power strength into consideration when determining someone's maximum lifespan? Wouldn't there just be a cap at, say 200 or 250 years?

It makes more sense to me that it would decrease the rejuvenating effects of the One Power, so that people bound age faster than those who haven't sworn any Oaths.

 

[Braydon Roque]

What I liked: mats jibe at Galad about quarter staff wielding trollocks. Mainly his jokes in general were all solid.

Tam was great as was Lan. When the two combined to fight Demandred it was epic. The imagery of a flaming runway of trollocs. Wow.

The decision of Rand to seal rather than destroy.

Hinterstrap not ending up being the low point in the series. Man was that terrible when introduced.

What I didn't like:

Rand living was just ridiculous as was the entire epilogue.
The rushed deaths after 300 pages of needless filler due to Sanderson unable to be subtle, ever. Why does he need to scream everything out. You could probably cut out 50 pages by simply taking all the explanation out. We don't need them. Fain was the worst but apart from Egwene and Galad I don't remember a death that wasn't a one or two liner. Bela, siuan, bryne, lanfear, fair, birgitte, all so rushed.

Was Sanderson actually making fun of himself with Thom at the end, or is he that bad at picking the right words? It's had enough he picks ridiculously jarring language and makes continuity errors way too often but that Thom scene seemed so surreal. I mean, writer who's biggest weakness is poor choice of words writing a supposedly epic bard talking about picking the right word was bad enough. But then... Terrifying? Really. That is THE word he (and Brandon) can think of? Personally I choose to believe that never happened because I liked Thom.

Demandred in Shara. Fine, it's a good plot device is there is a little more development (which would have been easy without giving it away). But it makes LLT screaming at Taim a bit of a joke. It was clearly Demandred. Riminds me of when they changed Lost because the fans picked it. Suck up your ego and just admit you made it too obvious.

Androl was a tough one to say I hated. He was done well but really seemed like Sandersons mark on the series. The clever use of Aperture Scien... I mean gateways was fun to read but why was this stuff not used before? Just gateway the core of the Earth and melt the entire Shadow army. He didnt think through the consequences of "hey wouldn't this be cool"

Glad it's over, the series was great in parts (I'm looking at you books 4 and 6) but the last 8 books could have been compressed into 4 and still have had a less rushed ending.

Getting "a" ending was great, but this series could have been so much better.

Oh, and Bela dying and not being a Horse of the Horn? Terrible.

 

[Braydon Roque]

Oh yeah, and Demandred not having a clue where Rand was, unforgivable. Literally everyone else knew where he was. Did he have no clue a out the battle at Shayol Ghul? Thom guarding Rand? What? How's about ANY forsaken just kill him and walk in? The only other defense was a dream shard.

It's really hard to know if all this stuff is the fault of Sanderson / Harriet directly or if its simply Jordan's first draft which couldn't be edited for obvious reasons. Or maybe it was just Jordan at his worst? He certainly wrote some stinkers and some gold.

Ah well, at least we got there in the end.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Demandred in Shara. Fine, it's a good plot device is there is a little more development (which would have been easy without giving it away). But it makes LLT screaming at Taim a bit of a joke. It was clearly Demandred. Riminds me of when they changed Lost because the fans picked it. Suck up your ego and just admit you made it too obvious.

Do you mean that you were still expecting Taim to be Demandred in disguise?

 

[Braydon Roque]

No, I mean that it's very clear that was Jordan's plan originally. I was fully expecting him to be in Shara at the end since there were no other options left but it fell flat because there was no back story and Graendal was in Shara for a whole and had no idea about him.

The idea about him being in Shara is fantastic but there needed to be foreshadowing and all the Taimandred stuff toned down. Why did LTT freak out over a random channeler he hadn't met?

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Well, LTT did want to kill most Asha'man.

I don't see why Jordan would change it because people guessed it. There have been other things people have guessed at that's come true. The most plausible theory for who Mesaana was in the White Tower turned out to be correct. Graendal was the most plausible suspect for being Asmodean's killer (but I'll give you that this was heavily debated :P).

Demandred's location had been assumed to be either Shara or Murandy for a loooong time, even though RJ said something about Shara not playing a huge part in the Last Battle. And there Demandred was ...

There were also plenty of clues for Taim being Moridin, or serving Moridin directly.

 

[Murun]

First of all I should admit the I am still stunned by the impact of this book - truly a knife of dreams, and a dignified ending for the series. Thanks to all involved.

And yes, I would not have protested against a longer wait if that had given us more detail, and more of an epilogue would have been appreciated too, but this is all we'll ever get, and it is good, very good indeed. There will be time to spot and discuss little inconsistencies and puzzles (of which there seem to be quite a lot, some already having been mentioned) upon reread; for now let me just share general impressions.

While there were lots of things to regret and mourn over, there was hardly anything I disliked. Perhaps a certain didactic emphasis, a desire to once more get important messages across: the importance of balance and cooperation, of caring and compassion, of respect for people's decisions. In this context, I found Logan's development and conversion a bit abrupt, but then, he never was a really bad guy, and his version of the Black Tower will be a valuable resource for the Fourth Age. And as to the scene of Rand letting go of guilt and assumed responsibilities, may I remind you that we had this lesson before, if in a different key - Birgitte versus Nyenaeve in TfoH? Well, let a dying author be excused for this - these things mattered much to Robert Jordan.

The biggest regret of course is the death of Egwene, and it is no comfort to see that it was predictable, that in a way she was doomed at least since Gawyn stealthily took the Bloodknives' rings in ToM. Fool boy indeed, kind of broke her neck.
And talking about Egwene, I should also mention Bela. May I remind you that this horse was deeply linked to Egwene, no matter who else she carried meanwhile or what other horses Egwene was riding inbetween? On the most important occasions on her way, Egwene was on Bela (or its likeness) - leaving the Two Rivers and crossing the Arienelle ("washed clean", ha!), going to Falme and coming back, being summoned to Salidar, setting out to block Northharbor with all its consequences. One may take Bela's death as one last piece of foreshadowing - no Bela, no Egwene, and vice versa. Still, I found the scene - with its echoes of TeotW and LoC - deeply moving.
Lesser regrets for Siuan Sanche and Gareth Byrne - and Rhuarc, of course, taken off so shortly before the end. Of course, Amys and Lian will cope, and I guess Aviendha won't tell how it happened. But then, Rhuarc was the one who was most ready to accept change, even if he didn't like it - one more reason for him to be missed.

But to go beyond mourning, what can one hope for the Fourth Age?

Cadsuane being drafted to the Amyrlin Seat may be a serious joke (remember, leaders should lead who don't like leading too much - Perrin's insight in ToM), but on the whole it does not bode well for the White Tower, it may just be the least bad solution in the situation at hand. Too much of a pattern - once more picking a quasi-outsider to give guidance when no one else wants to take the risks and responsibilities involved. (What about Saerin Sedai instead, clever Brown and former wilder?)
With Egwene, for all her being too readily taken in by the corporate ideology the Tower, there were beginnings of a reform and modernization of this much too self-centered organization, of its opening to the world and its needs, to truly becoming servants of all not just in name. I cannot expect Cadsuane to continue this, no matter how long or short her tenure will be. Perhaps some of the survivors will take up Egwene's legacy, and of course one may hope for the mass of new arrivals at the tower, who will graduate to Aes Sedai in future years. Btw, will Elayne ever come to Cadsuane's Tower, do the testing and swear the oaths? One may doubt it.
Another aspect worthy of consideration seems to be that there are quite a number of burned-out Aes Sedai now - not just Annoura, who will stay on as friend and advisor to Berelain (whatever led her to be this had nothing to do with the Power). Attitudes will have to change.

That many people of vastly different backgrounds fought side by side will create a mood of respect and mutual understanding, as will cooperation on the massive amount of reconstruction work needed. We were shown the immigration of refugees into the Two Rivers as quite beneficial, now something like it is going to happen on a much larger scale. Chances for the Brotherless, chances for Displaced Persons of many kinds, wish 'em luck.

Oh yes, and what about the Aiel? Will the provisions Aviendha made Rand insert into his peace treaty help to avert their dire future? The last talk between Bair and Aviendha leaves it inconclusive.
In any case, the death of most of the clan chiefs puts a heavy responsibility on the surviving Wise Ones. And Gaul - who had been threatened to be sent to Rhuidan before - may have less time for his wives than he expects.
The Aiel will not (cannot) abandon the Three-Fold Land, but they will not leave the wetlands either. They will build holds there, and holds will become towns, and they will not be able (or willing) to keep themselves apart from other people any longer. Feuding between clans will also become pointless. Just let them remember honor, and they will do well.

Some last remarks on the bright side - thanks for preserving both Perrin AND Faile. Their relationship may not be to everyone's taste, but they need each other, they have both matured through time and danger, and they will continue to do so. And the pattern weaving a future for Min? Great, thanks. Also nice to meet Raen and Ila, and seeing at least his black and white view of the world weakened. And let's not forget Bayle and Leilwin - may they smell the salt again.

 

[Toral Delvar]

I am not sure how well the rifts in the Tower were healed. They seemed to work together, but it still might be too soon for a person who was either a rebel or loyalist to get to the Seat

 

[Paxam Leratharn]

Cadsuane was neither though, was she? She didn't seem particularly interested in the who White Tower split, she was focused on young Mr. al'Thor.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

I totally overlooked this. Where?

When Tuon has the weave for Gateways revealed to her fairly early on in the book. The damane embarasses the sul'dam by babbling about how many Aes Sedai she'll trade for her freedom etc. That damane is Elaida.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I think Cadsuane would make a great Amrylin precisely because she doesn't want to be one. But she'll accept it, and I don't think she'll settle for anything but being awesome at her job. If anything, she's always come across as very pragmatic and wanting to get things done. If the annoying Aes Sedai customs are in they way, I'd wager she'll throw them out the window.

 

[Murun]

@ Toral and Paxam: Yes, quite correct - these are reasons why Cadsuane may the best choice to be had.
@ Tazren: I agree that she will do her best and try to be "awesome at her job". Whatever that means from such an arrogant ... ahem ... person as her. While Egwene (in the discussion in ToM) had ideas of the Tower being first among equals and leading by example, I am afraid Cadsuane will try to restore the WT to a position it can no longer hold, alienating other groups of channelers.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

@ Tazren: I agree that she will do her best and try to be "awesome at her job". Whatever that means from such an arrogant ... ahem ... person as her. While Egwene (in the discussion in ToM) had ideas of the Tower being first among equals and leading by example, I am afraid Cadsuane will try to restore the WT to a position it can no longer hold, alienating other groups of channelers.

I don't think she will. Say whatever you want about her attitude towards people or general demeanour; she's not stupid. She is intelligent, and she is pragmatic. I think she'll see the need for the Tower to move forwards, if not for any other reason, then for the simple fact that the world will move forwards without them otherwise.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

I don't think she will. Say whatever you want about her attitude towards people or general demeanour; she's not stupid. She is intelligent, and she is pragmatic. I think she'll see the need for the Tower to move forwards, if not for any other reason, then for the simple fact that the world will move forwards without them otherwise.

This. I got hints that Cadsuane often felt that the whole system by which AS determined precedence (ie strength in the Power above all else) wasn't the best way. People she utilised very often had low strength such as Daighiean (sp?) - she saw them for the skills they had, rather than writing them off as insignificant because they were not formidable channelers.

 

[Samara]

I think Siuan and Gareth deserved better than basically one liner deaths. Siuan was always with Egwene or Gareth and suddenly she goes off to protect Min and Mat? She did not have the gift of foretelling.

I didn't like that Moiriane basically clung to a rock most of the book. We didn't see her reunite with Siuan or Lan.

 

[Megana Vallentin]

If the Oath Rod is a ticking timebomb, why would it take One Power strength into consideration when determining someone's maximum lifespan? Wouldn't there just be a cap at, say 200 or 250 years?

It makes more sense to me that it would decrease the rejuvenating effects of the One Power, so that people bound age faster than those who haven't sworn any Oaths.

Tazren Gaidin, is there a topic around here about discussing why the Oath Rod limits one's lifespan? I would love to read the theories people have about that.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

All in all I am very happy with how well we managed to predict things btw. Between us we nailed a lot of the big issues.


LIKES:

Egwene dying: I'd been expecting this. As its probably the single largest factor that leads to Avi's vision of the future. (in which the Tower is surprisingly useless) I'd assumed after the last book that Egwene had to be out of the picture for this to occur. So I was happy to see I was right on that. Means Avi is going to have to really work at avoiding that future for the Aiel too. Made for good reading too.

Perrin: Good stuff from Perrin in this book, this TAR sequences were all pretty interesting. and he learned slayers trick. Good reading.

Callandors flaw: Nice to see that we picked out the flaw being the key to it all, and that is was more of a flaw than just lacking a buffer. I'm impressed we nailed that one as close as we did. The leadjacking aspect to it totally makes sense.

Demandred/Shara: Not surprising there, that's been one of our top options for him for ages, good to see we right there. He really let his wanting to fight LTT hamstring him though, with the Power he was rocking he should have gone all out and slaughtered mats army, and speaking of that...........

2nd Most Powerful Sa'angreal: Oh thank god, there you are baby mwah mwah mwah daddy has been looking for you!!!! Now I'm well curious to to where Dem finally found the damn thing. Shara I guess.

DO: Sealed up again back in his prison, wheel keeps spinning, the story continues. Pretty much what I expected really. The visions were an interesting touch. Works for me.

DISLIKES:

Bela: I was so happy at first to see her still plodding on, still kicking ass and being the super horse. and then Sanderson KILLS HER OFF. Not happy.
On the bright side....... I like to think she's been made an Animal Hero of the Horn. I mean if the wolves were worthy, then Bela is certainly

Fain: So long a build up, and then written out in the space of a page or two. In a book with 900 pages surely a little more time and significance could have been applied to the situation. I am very pleased to see it didn't turn out to be a Lord of the Rings ripoff like some people seemed to thing was a role he'd play. But it really should have been a bit more attention given to it.

 

[Eleyan Al'Landerin]

My opinions echo Axis' pretty much (which, all things considered, is not surprising!).
- Not all hero's are human!


Likes:
- Graendal - she has always been my favorite Forsaken, and I have always always argued that she was the most dangerous. After finishing the series, I can't say my opinion of her has changed. She wasn't felled by her own hubris (like Demandred and to some extent Moghedian). She was given a impossible task to achieve with tools that didn't work to her advantage, when she failed she met a horrible fate and then was put into an ugly body - which, btw, she used to great advantage. She pulled off, in my opinion, the SINGLE greatest long-con in the series with those Generals. And when she fell it was at Tha'kan Dar, after an interminably long time fighting, exhausted and wounded. Her own weave blew up in her face because her adversary's last chance at a distraction was picking apart the knot on a weave (something RJ set up a long, long time ago). She made me proud.
- Olver's scenes regarding the Horn. I had to put the book down for a decent cry when Noal came back for him. And yes, out of that 200 page chapter, THAT is the scene that made me actually cry.
- Lan's charge into and fight with Demandred (more or that later, though).
- Egwene's death. That happened as it should, and it was glorious. I was particularly moved that her passing was written from her point of view and brought her peace.
- Both Mat and Perrin sounded truer to their own characters than they had for me in a long time.
- Min was kinda awesome throughout.
- Brigitta's ending felt fitting and right.
- I liked that many of the stories didn't end. That also felt right.

Dislikes:
- Padan Fain. I get it, in a way. I had not considered that each of the three boys had their own nemises until those final scenes. Isam/Luc for Perrin, Mordith/Machin Shin for Mat, and Ishamael/Ba'alzamon for Rand. I didn't want it to be that tidy, though, and it DID feel too tidy to me. I was expecting something more frightening and significant with Padan Fain, and I expected him to be significant in the last battle. Instead I think he was an incredibly interesting premise that didn't fulfill his promise.
- Lan lives. Nah. Lan should have died and stayed dead. He took down Demandred in hand to hand combat, a man with no access to the Power against one of the most dangerous Forsaken.... a Forsaken who had managed to set himself as a God and who defeated two other fantastic swordsmen. And Lan does it after fighting for WEEKS with no break. It was epic. The battle was memorable and worthy in the way that Egwene fixing the cracks in the world with a combination of righteous fury, heartbreaking pain, and ultimately joy. Also, I totally think he should have ended on "I came to kill you." "Death is lighter than a feather" seemed a bit throw-away after that statement and his self-sacrificial actions. Lan was never one to use more words where fewer would do, I think.
- Faile lives. That's another Nah from me. I was also surprised as heck that Perrin lived with no seemingly crazy consequences from having gone physically into the world of dreams.
- In fact, while many many people died, I felt we probably saw a few too many survive. This applies across the board except with...
- Bela. WTF?!

 

[Mirandha Laflor]

I agree that Mat and Perrin felt more true to their characters in this book. It was really nice to see Brandon find Mat's voice in particular. I also think he improved on writing Aviendha too.

 

[Sorcha Al'Verdan]

Not reading any of this thread, just wanted to come in and vent. OMFG how many people does it take to kill a GD forsaken FFS!