The Forsaken

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Mirindyin Zakura, Jun 23, 2015.

  1. Mirindyin Zakura

    Mirindyin Zakura

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,099
    Location:
    Tampere, Finland/North from the Hell
    Now that we have all the books, I want to ask a question that has been bugging me lately. How come the Dark One did not resurrect all of the Darkfriend Aes Sedai from AoL when his seals weakened? Surely he still has their souls. It seems weird to me that he either completely ignored this asset or that for whatever reason the Forsaken were just that special. Any thoughts?
     
  2. Elania al'Manir

    Elania al'Manir Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,449
    Location:
    Missouri
    Maybe it's harder to resurrect someone the longer they've been dead?
     
  3. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,070
    They may have been reborn while he was sealed.
     
  4. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,572
    Location:
    Chuckville, IL
    Well he had to find bodies for their souls to inhabit too, and well he's got to feed them trollocks :lol
     
  5. Leo Kian

    Leo Kian Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,176
    Location:
    Liverpool, United Kingdom
    Plus Balefire was used widely during a portion of the War of Power so I am sure many Forsaken were destroyed that way too.
     
  6. Tobias Carawin

    Tobias Carawin Citizen

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    148
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    This is from a Q&A session you can read on the WoT Wikipedia

    The title of this article is: Tor Questions of the Week, 23 December 2003 - 20 April 2004

    INTERVIEW: Apr 20th, 2004

    TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

    WEEK 3 QUESTION (MATT HATCH)
    There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

    ROBERT JORDAN
    There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

    After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

    There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.
     
  7. Mirindyin Zakura

    Mirindyin Zakura

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,099
    Location:
    Tampere, Finland/North from the Hell
    I think there might be ever-so-slight possibility that Robert Jordan didn't think about this :look
     
  8. Zednelem

    Zednelem

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4
    That is a great thought. Maybe the dark one was overconfident and prideful, he probably thought he would defeat the light, and didn't need anymore help
     
  9. Kram Saman

    Kram Saman

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2015
    Messages:
    41
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    I think that the Dark One wouldn't want to resurrect any Forsaken from aMoL. As the current ones are the best and they are the only Chosen. Why to revive souls which failed and weren't proven worthy the effort.
     
  10. Trond Maslin

    Trond Maslin

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2015
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    USA
    Whoa. If those killed with balefire still have souls, does that mean that balefire doesn't completely eradicate someone from the pattern? Would those killed with balefire eventually be reborn in a later age? I always assumed it completely annihilated one from subsequent turnings of the pattern. I suppose the fact that balefire doesn't eradicate someone entirely from the past means that, eventually, those past events will have to be repeated in a future age.
     
  11. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 4, 2002
    Messages:
    13,180
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    It must mean that their souls are in existence somewhere. And could potentially be reborn.

    I was actually thinking about this last night.... Their current thread in the pattern is burned out by balefire, and how much of that thread depends on the strength of the balefire. So if you use enough balefire on someone, you could potentially prevent them from being born (though not likely), but not totally eradicate the soul. Rand uses enough balefire on Rahvin to prevent Rahvin from having ordered the ambush in which Mat, Asmodean, and Aviendha were killed. Though how much active participation in that did Rahvin have? How far back did Rand actually burn Rahvin out? The fighting at the wall still happened, but without the exploding wall...

    Anyway. The balefired Forsaken, I'd think, are in line to be reborn and live again. Their current thread in the Pattern is just ended prematurely (though arguable for the Forsaken it's ended too late, as their threads are longer than most since they've been locked up with TDO). The question is, does personality change? Does loyalty and inclination toward Light or Dark change? Will they seek out the Dark One again?
     
  12. Tehmpus

    Tehmpus

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    118
    I think you are correct in that the souls hit by balefire get reborn again into the world just like any other soul. Sure, they cannot be brought back by the Dark One with his transmigration, but they are still available to the general pool to be born again at some future time as someone's baby. Will that baby still have the same personality, or inclination toward Light or Dark? Well, for normal people I don't think so. It might be the same soul, but they will have a different childhood. Different events will affect their lives which would push them to either Light, Dark, or neither. I think the only exception to that rule is 50 or so Champions that the Creator ties to the Wheel, and hides in Tel'aronrhiod, in order to be used for certain important historical events.
     
  13. Eniara Kisharad

    Eniara Kisharad Asst. Director of Research and Records Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    497
    Location:
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Metaphysics of balefire aside, I think the reason the DO wouldn't have captured/resurrected souls of other dreadlords from the AoL, while he still could, is that there wasn't much of a strategic advantage to it at the time. The DO wants the best, most effective servants. If an AoL dreadlord was killed...well, then he wasn't worthy, was he? There were easily another 50 springing up to compete for his place and one of them may be smarter or stronger. The Forsaken were only preserved as long as they were because they were the best at the time and thus were at the meeting that caught them up in the sealing of the Bore. The DO, as has been mentioned many times in the books, is still encouraging competition amongst his servants -- only the fittest will be Nae'blis. Those who have been resurrected have only been so because they retain a vast wealth of knowledge no one else has. If another dreadlord with as much skill and experience were waiting in the wings, I doubt anyone would have been resurrected.
     
  14. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 4, 2002
    Messages:
    13,180
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    That makes sense. So many of the Forsaken went to the Dark side because of something that they were denied -- Mesaana was denied a teaching position and told she was only suitable for research; Demandred was terribly jealous of Lews Therin.