S2E4 "Daughter of the Night" -- w/ Book Spoilers

[Thaddius al'Guy]

However, has she lost that 'superior annoying' side of her character a little too much? Perhaps as the main characters are all a little older than they are in the books, she is being played with more maturity than that of the Elayne we know from the first few books?

I think I'm OK with losing that trait as long as she retains the woefully out of touch nature she can have at times being the daughter heir.

 

[Megana Vallentin]

Someone mentioned (somewhere on discord I think) something about not minding so much if the characters and plot diverge a lot from the books as long as they end up in the right place for the MAJOR plot points, and I think that really sums up how I feel right now. In a lot of ways I have no idea what to expect next, except a general idea of where we're going to end up at certain beats. It's really thrilling, but I also hope it doesn't go so far that it starts to feel unrecognizable. So far so good!

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

Someone mentioned (somewhere on discord I think) something about not minding so much if the characters and plot diverge a lot from the books as long as they end up in the right place for the MAJOR plot points, and I think that really sums up how I feel right now. In a lot of ways I have no idea what to expect next, except a general idea of where we're going to end up at certain beats. It's really thrilling, but I also hope it doesn't go so far that it starts to feel unrecognizable. So far so good!

+1

 

[rebornoldtimer]

For me as far as remaining true to the source (no pun intended...) the key thing to remember is that the series is an adaptation.

As such as long as it remains true to the spirit of the story told in the books I'm fine with small changes here and then.

For instance...

No meeting with Mordeth in Shadar Logoth.... Well this is a little disappointing, but not every plot point can be included. The merging of Mordeth with Fain to create a new 'even more evil' character may be a bit too much for an 8 episode TV series to include.

Lanfear was introduced in a different setting. I'm OK with this as it seems that the spirit of the her character and her motivations are true to the books.

What I would not have been OK with would have been making Nyneave or someone other than Rand the dragon. I understand the reasoning for the 'mystery' of season 1, and to be fair I think its actually a reasonable improvement on Jordan's writing in book 1, however a fundamental change like that would not be true to the spirit of the books, and would have required a rewriting of basically the rest of the story.

Perhaps another, better, example would have been a concern I had at the end of season 1, when it appeared that Loial had been killed off.

I think if that had been proved to be the case, I might have stopped watching, as for me, that would have been a change too far.

 

[Syera Faelron]

I am loving the casting still and improvements. These books are seemingly hard to adapt and Rafe has done well so far. Yes some major plot twists and turns, although bar from Uno and Moraine. I am not hating it, although the Moraine one was more screen time than longevity i hope. Will someone unknot her for ....sake.
Awww Hopper!!

 

[Syera Faelron]

Spoiler: Black Adam?

Boom

 

[Syera Faelron]

silly double post

 

[rebornoldtimer]

The marketing of the series with Moiraine is interesting.

Season 1 especially was 'Moraine's' show and season 2 slight changes to her story-line are keeping her prevalent in a very different way to the books.

Given that Rosamund Pike seems especially invested in the character and the show I wonder how the show runner and writers are planning to handle her exit from the stage...

I feel that if they were to try and keep her in the story-line for the sake of the shows 'Television Identity' and a return on all the marketing they have done with her character at the forefront it would be a mistake.

How many books does she vanish for in the towers? Is it 6? She's an important character to be sure but a main character?

I guess its debatable who the main characters in WOT are, given its such a huge cast list, but I've always felt it to be the five from the two rivers.

Even Rand in some of the later books does not feature that much, its very much an ensemble story-line, as opposed to 'One man saves the world.'

To be fair, this is very much how season 1 was presented.

Anyway, I tend to go off at tangents very easily in these discussions.

I just can't imagine it would work very well to try and keep Moiraine as a central character for too long.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

I believe that if they are going to stay true to the story her "death" won't be as long, or they are going to set it up in such a way that will make it not so devastating to the show.

 

[Thaddius al'Guy]

Maybe we'll get a more in depth look of the land of the Aelfinn/Elfinn

 

[rebornoldtimer]

Maybe we'll get a more in depth look of the land of the Aelfinn/Elfinn

It would be nice but I'm not sure we will.

That is probably one of the hardest (least described and perhaps most estoric) of Jordan's 'worlds.'

I get the impression so far from the series that they will be presenting a simplified version of the WOT lore.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Yeah, I suspect they will drop that part altogether, and have Moiraine be captive by some forces of the Shadow. I doubt they will have more sources of "evil", Fain and the Dark One are more than enough.

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

Why are they making the Forsaken some sort of immortals? I don't think it was mentioned in the books that they couldn't be killed by ordinary weapons. None of them are, asaik, but they probably could if caught unawares.

I cannot overstate how much I dislike this immortality scene. Yes they are perfectly mortal, they could die through mortal means, none of the Aes Sedai of the AoL were immortal even with Healing.

It is very likely the Forsaken "cannot" die because of the True Power. If you notice they focus on Lanfear's eyes at the end and you can see the Saa - the small black dots which move across the eyes of those who use the True Power extensively.
This is kinda similar to how hard Ishamael is to kill in the first 3 books until Rand severs his connection to the Dark One in the 3th book.

I think this could be true, but I suspect it is the first showing by The Lord of the Grave, and is the equivalent of what we see in the books when the Dark Lord puts souls back into mortal bodies. I also think it might be a setup for Balefire and its dangers - you can kill Forsaken with Balefire but is it worth it?

I do hope we get to see Mat get killed and Bale-Resurrected. Would be so much more impactful than the fake-out Loial death.

 

[Ilverin Matriam]

Why are they making the Forsaken some sort of immortals? I don't think it was mentioned in the books that they couldn't be killed by ordinary weapons. None of them are, asaik, but they probably could if caught unawares.

I also think that they don't want to change actors every season, so they are creating a device by which they cannot be killed by simple means such as... getting stabbed in the heart and their throat cut

I like the detail with Min. It showed that Liandrin is aligned with Ishamael without making it obvious And of course something like that would be tempting for her I wonder though, will she take Mat to Cairhien, or will she run in the opposite direction, aka Falme

I thought Min will be taking Mat straight to Falme, honestly, I didn't expect this detour to Cairhien, but it makes sense with her vision of Mat stabbing Rand and Rand being in Cairhien. I believe Min will prevent this from happening.

When Moiraine asks for "a redheaded boy" why do they know that, when Rand has shaved his hair?"

Right? I was also like... what?

Given that Rosamund Pike seems especially invested in the character and the show I wonder how the show runner and writers are planning to handle her exit from the stage...

I feel that if they were to try and keep her in the story-line for the sake of the shows 'Television Identity' and a return on all the marketing they have done with her character at the forefront it would be a mistake.

I do not believe Moiraine will be "killed off". Not like in the red stone doorway anyway. Rosamund Pike is very expensive to just disappear after a season or two. Currently, she is playing two characters for me, she is playing a Moiraine mix of pre- and after red stone doorway (because of Lan's broken bond) and she is also portraying a stilled Siuan , who is trying to find a will to live and a goal to set her mind on.

 

[rebornoldtimer]

It concerns me if Moiraine sticks around too long.

Its very important that she isn't around in terms of Rand being able to lead and make decisions for himself without having her guidance/pushing him in a certain way.

I agree with the above comments about the changes to the Forsaken.

They are really the true 'baddies' of the story-line. Whilst book 1 sets up a battle against the Dark One and this comes to play towards the end of the series it's really very ephemeral.

The dark one and the creator cannot be represented in any real way, hence the forsaken and 'our heroes.'

Its too complicated to have them dying and coming back with new character names and actors.

As they need to stick around to have threat in the series something needed to change from the books to the TV series.

As above, I don't they will be immortal, but they will most likely be seen as immortal until rand discovers balefire or until they are killed off by other means.

Its all possible that they might not all have the ability that Lanfear has shown.

Perhaps some of the lesser forsaken are not as privileged.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Ilverin Matriam]

OK, some notes I gathered for this episode:
- Ishamael walking through the cliffs in the beginning - are they ancient buildings? Is this the bore? Or is it somewhere around Cairhien, where Bayle Domon said he found the cuendillar?
- Why does Lanfear come out covered in blood, but Ishamael did not in last season?
- The inn that Rand stays at is called the Crescent, teeeheee
- Selene talking about her ex, Sounds like Lews Therin, but then she is talking about turning part of herself to him like a mirror, I didn't get that at all...
- Fade coming to kill Rand and Selene and Rand channels to kill it – was it all her plan for him to let go and channel? Was it a way for her to get closer to him? Also his channeling looked very controlled for someone who hasn't channeled at all on purpose before.

Moiraine:
- Alanna mentioning something happened to Moiraine 20 years ago – its when she found out the dragon was reborn, why isn't Lan connecting dots and shit? Or is he just playing dumb to not reveal too much?
- Moiraine is visiting Logain, she seemingly has put him there and has put Rand very comfortably in Cairhien so that both of them can meet? Seems too far fetched, maybe she put Logain there, but how would she know Rand would go there?
- Moiraine uses the phrase "cut off" from the One Power to refer to Logain’s situation (he is gentled)… She uses it to refer to herself as well, so maybe she believes she is stilled, or is she really stilled. They are playing with words a lot and it might just be a distraction for us.
- Anvaere talking to Moiraine of everything she's done through the years, the she says that her son is going to marry the queen, who is her son and who is the queen?
- Also, Moiraine being out played at the Game by her younger sister was somehow very sweet.
- Alanna and her warders can read the old tongue? I guess we all knew from the beginning what that poem is going to turn out to be...


White Tower:
- No explanation of what happened after everyone found out Nynaeve exited the arches, I expected something... MORE, it is something that has never happened in history before and it's just... not explained at all...
- That warder talking to Nynaeve – asking her is she really channeled in the arches, what the hell do warders know or care about that? Also, does that mean that because Nynaeve channeled, that's why the way back lid back up again?
- Liandrin tells Leane if the Amyrlin falls, she will fall with her. Does Leane know at this point what Siuan’s doing?
- Elayne following Egwene and Nynaeve is exactly how I imagined her leaving with the two of them at this point, too nosy


Aes Sedai age and lying
- It was not lost on me how they made sure to say that Moiraine is the “older sister” in the very beginning. However in the books, Moiraine is only 40 something years old.
- Alanna’s family mentioned her old age too
- Liandrin is also talking to Nynaeve how long they live and how they must find things to live for
- Another theme of the episode is - they mention many times that Aes Sedai cannot lie in this episode, soooooooooo which one of them is lying and how much and about what?


Other:
- Perrin asking if he is going to change into a wolf was funny Then Elyas saying he was there when saving Egwene and Perrin from the Whitecloaks was interesting
- Ishamael telling Min that an Aes Sedai cannot take her visions away, but implying the Dark can, is manipulation, he probably cannot do that either

 

[rebornoldtimer]

OK, some notes I gathered for this episode:
- Ishamael walking through the cliffs in the beginning - are they ancient buildings? Is this the bore? Or is it somewhere around Cairhien, where Bayle Domon said he found the cuendillar?
- Why does Lanfear come out covered in blood, but Ishamael did not in last season?
- The inn that Rand stays at is called the Crescent, teeeheee
- Selene talking about her ex, Sounds like Lews Therin, but then she is talking about turning part of herself to him like a mirror, I didn't get that at all...
- Fade coming to kill Rand and Selene and Rand channels to kill it – was it all her plan for him to let go and channel? Was it a way for her to get closer to him? Also his channeling looked very controlled for someone who hasn't channeled at all on purpose before.

Moiraine:
- Alanna mentioning something happened to Moiraine 20 years ago – its when she found out the dragon was reborn, why isn't Lan connecting dots and shit? Or is he just playing dumb to not reveal too much?
- Moiraine is visiting Logain, she seemingly has put him there and has put Rand very comfortably in Cairhien so that both of them can meet? Seems too far fetched, maybe she put Logain there, but how would she know Rand would go there?
- Moiraine uses the phrase "cut off" from the One Power to refer to Logain’s situation (he is gentled)… She uses it to refer to herself as well, so maybe she believes she is stilled, or is she really stilled. They are playing with words a lot and it might just be a distraction for us.
- Anvaere talking to Moiraine of everything she's done through the years, the she says that her son is going to marry the queen, who is her son and who is the queen?
- Also, Moiraine being out played at the Game by her younger sister was somehow very sweet.
- Alanna and her warders can read the old tongue? I guess we all knew from the beginning what that poem is going to turn out to be...


White Tower:
- No explanation of what happened after everyone found out Nynaeve exited the arches, I expected something... MORE, it is something that has never happened in history before and it's just... not explained at all...
- That warder talking to Nynaeve – asking her is she really channeled in the arches, what the hell do warders know or care about that? Also, does that mean that because Nynaeve channeled, that's why the way back lid back up again?
- Liandrin tells Leane if the Amyrlin falls, she will fall with her. Does Leane know at this point what Siuan’s doing?
- Elayne following Egwene and Nynaeve is exactly how I imagined her leaving with the two of them at this point, too nosy


Aes Sedai age and lying
- It was not lost on me how they made sure to say that Moiraine is the “older sister” in the very beginning. However in the books, Moiraine is only 40 something years old.
- Alanna’s family mentioned her old age too
- Liandrin is also talking to Nynaeve how long they live and how they must find things to live for
- Another theme of the episode is - they mention many times that Aes Sedai cannot lie in this episode, soooooooooo which one of them is lying and how much and about what?


Other:
- Perrin asking if he is going to change into a wolf was funny Then Elyas saying he was there when saving Egwene and Perrin from the Whitecloaks was interesting
- Ishamael telling Min that an Aes Sedai cannot take her visions away, but implying the Dark can, is manipulation, he probably cannot do that either

Great post. Thanks for taking the time.

Lanfear covered in blood and Ishy not? I believe that Ishy had already escaped the seal at TEOTW. The cracks were showing... he had already invaded the dreams of the 5. It's one of the best misleads in the series. The enemy in book 1 wasn't really the dark one after all.

I believe that the Fade that attacks Rand was very much under the control/summoned by Lanfear. She is indeed trying to 'wake the dragon.'
She wants him to come to her side, and she always believes that she can persuade him.

I believe a lot of latitude has been given to Moiraines storyline to make it work.

The queen of Cairhien could plausibly be Colavaere Saighan, but I'm not sure the series will go into the level of detail to actually have characters like her in the show, rather I think the whole Anvaere plot was more designed to give backstory to Moiraines character.

I suppose the counter to that would to be say Lindsay Duncan is perhaps to big a name to only play a small role in the series.

I agree that the lack of reaction to Nyneave return from the arches was somewhat strange. I suppose it could have happened off screen to be referenced later. A criticism of the show I have at this point is that it all seems quite rushed at times.

I would have expected at least a scene where Nyneave was questioned by the Mistress of Novices and others about what happened.

I don't think Leane knows what Siuan is doing, but rather as the Keeper must show great loyalty to the Amyrlin.

Aes Sedai not lying is very much like Vulcans not being emotional.... its not really true!

And yeah, not believing too much of what Ishy says is probably a good start.

 

[Megana Vallentin]

- No explanation of what happened after everyone found out Nynaeve exited the arches, I expected something... MORE, it is something that has never happened in history before and it's just... not explained at all...

YES that one bothered me too! That's what made me think again about how many things that apparently happened between s1 and s2 never really get explained either, we just roll with it. But this one was even more obvious because it was within a single episode.

 

[Thaddius al'Guy]

YES that one bothered me too! That's what made me think again about how many things that apparently happened between s1 and s2 never really get explained either, we just roll with it. But this one was even more obvious because it was within a single episode.

I think I was bothered more by how simplified the arches felt. It was very much more arcane in the books. They had more sisters that were present to maintain the arches. It felt bigger. This was just a small room and it just didn't have the same oomph for me.

 

[Viktara Fen]

- Selene talking about her ex, Sounds like Lews Therin, but then she is talking about turning part of herself to him like a mirror, I didn't get that at all...

For me, this was more moon imagery, in that the moon reflects the sun's light like a mirror. LTT is called Lord of the Morning and has a lot of Light/Solar imagery associated with him, so this, as I interpreted it, was Lanfear discussing her relationship with LTT in metaphorical terms. Also, to me, it also evokes the whole "brighter than the sun" sort of descriptions that were used for what the Dragon Reborn would be like back in Season 1.