Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- To the End!

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, May 31, 2016.

  1. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    WH – 23

    Oh man, Windfinders and Cadsuane, My favorite two things in one spot.

    WH – 24

    Cadsuane being a bully to a guy who is literally just doing his job.

    WH – 25

    So, considering that the general implications of Bonding a Man against his will are likened to rape by the Aes Sedai..Alanna is freaking creepy here. She literally thinks that her victim belongs to her.

    And yes Cadsuane, Rand is turning to stone. Do you know what doesn't help with that? Continually antagonizing him. He has quite enough people doing that to him without you adding to the pile. What Rand needs are more people he can actually trust. Look at Verin in the previous chapter, her plan is to keep Rand out of trouble and actually help him by making sure the Council doesn't do something stupid.


    WH – 26

    Not much here, little character stuff, and set up for the next chapter, when Elayne does awesome stuffs,
    WH – 23

    Oh man, Windfinders and Cadsuane, My favorite two things in one spot.

    WH – 24

    Cadsuane being a bully to a guy who is literally just doing his job.

    WH – 25

    So, considering that the general implications of Bonding a Man against his will are likened to rape by the Aes Sedai..Alanna is freaking creepy here. She literally thinks that her victim belongs to her.

    And yes Cadsuane, Rand is turning to stone. Do you know what doesn't help with that? Continually antagonizing him. He has quite enough people doing that to him without you adding to the pile. What Rand needs are more people he can actually trust. Look at Verin in the previous chapter, her plan is to keep Rand out of trouble and actually help him by making sure the Council doesn't do something stupid.


    WH – 26

    Not much here, little character stuff, and set up for the next chapter, when Elayne does awesome stuffs,
     
  2. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    It still surprises me how calm Rand is when he speaks to her. I feel like when she first bonded him, I didn't realize exactly how bad it was and maybe neither did Rand, but by now we all know what a terrible thing she did. Yet Rand doesn't do a lot of threatening or bullying or anything else to try and get her to release the bond.
     
  3. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    Rand couldn't harm a woman if his life depended on it at that stage. And Min did tell him that she had a Viewing that Alanna was in his hand. She would serve him; and she did.

    I think that something else is important. Rand got certain advantages from the bond. All the warder benefits from the bond were his after Alanna bonded him. And I think he needed every bit of that to survive the many life-threatening situations he faced, including Fain's dagger slash. He didn't consent to the bond; but I think he needed it. And having said that, I don't absolve Alanna of her wrong-doing.

    As to Alanna's possessiveness attitude, it comes with the bond between spirits. She felt responsibility towards her warder. Heck she felt him in her head, his pain, his hardness, his pleasures, everything. I don't claim to understand how the bond works; but ..... he was her warder.
     
  4. Ryu Shadowborn

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    I would have stilled her right then and there.
     
  5. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    He couldn't risk any harm to her because he'll suffer more. If he stills her and she dies ....
     
  6. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    Well..he is a bit more calm about it than I am.

    I'da done it anyways..then locked her in a dungeon.
     
  7. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    Yeah; he was calmer about it than expected :) . ... Some warders drop dead on the spot when their Aes Sedai is stilled. I think that's what happened to Martine Jinata's (Setalle Anan) if I remember correctly from Path of Daggers.
     
  8. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 23-27

    I agree about Rand being weirdly calm when he's around Alanna. I feel like the readers get angrier at her than Rand does. :look Though I suppose he isn't showing a lot of emotion right now anyway, so that could be part of it.

    Chapter 8:

    -Kirstian and Garenia figure out that Adeleas’s killer has to be Merilille, Sareitha, or Careane. We know it’s Careane.
    -Elayne’s plan to convince the sul’dam that they can channel, then just send them back to the Seanchan is a good one. It’s just unexpectedly tough to convince the sul’dam they can channel, even when they can see the weaves.
    -A lot of the damane, whether Seanchan or not, are convinced that they need to be collared and deserve it.
    -Alivia eventually breaks through that, saying that she was just afraid she’d be taken again and didn’t want to be heard saying that she wanted the collar removed.
    -Alivia’s been collared for 300-400 years. :blink It’s impressive she’s as seemingly well-adjusted as she is.
    -Lan tells them what some of them are probably thinking: They can’t morally leave the damane collared when they want to be free. Then they’re just doing what the Seanchan did.
    -The newly captured damane’s behavior confuses people. Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome.
    -Tai’shar Manetheren. ^^ I love that.

    Chapter 9:
    -Elayne’s baffled by Elaida’s proclamation about Rand. She doesn’t think Elaida’s stupid enough to think Rand would accept that offer.
    -Elayne wants to start an Andoran post office.
    -Elayne thinks that surely Seanchan fighting Sea Folk at sea is just a rumor.
    -People are definitely noticing the disappearance of the Borderlander rulers.
    -Elayne impresses Master Norry.
    -There’s a Borderlander army seen in the Braem Wood.
    -Dyelin proves her loyalty to Elayne by fighting an assassin. :eek

    Chapter 10:
    -Whenever Aviendha insults Wetlanders, she then realizes that that includes Birgitte and get embarrassed. :lol I love how uncertain she is around Birgitte.
    -Doilan Mellar. :facepalm
    -Elayne still cherishes the feathers that Rand tried to make a bouquet out of awhile ago.
    -“As proud as a Shaido with one goat” :lol
    -Nynaeve imagines white in her hair in tel’aran’rhiod. She wants to appear older and more authoritative.
    -Sharina Melloy was in Nynaeve’s test for Accepted and now she’s a Novice at the rebel Tower. Interesting how the rings draw from life, even using people that none present at the test knew. (at least I assume none of them knew Sharina)
    -Nynaeve makes the excellent point that, if Halima’s massages were any good, Egwene would’ve stopped having her headaches by now. :|
    -Elayne and Egwene recognize Slayer (I believe) in tel’aran’rhiod and say he looks like Rand’s mean uncle.
    -Elayne has a plan here in regards to the Borderlander army. What is it? I can’t remember. :scratch She thinks that they can help her secure the Lion Throne.
    -Eldrith’s Warder is trying to find her, bent on killing her, even knowing that it’ll probably kill him. :(
    -The Black Ajah was in Samara, and they hid from Eldrith’s Warder, but otherwise just stayed their during the riots Galad caused.
    -There were three people (Slayer, Temaile, and one unknown man) spying on Elayne and Egwene in tel’aran’rhiod.
    -Asne is letting her Warders find her, even though only 1/4 of them is a Darkfriend. She’s confident the others will still listen to her, though, and she has a balefire rod left by Moghedien.

    Chapter 11:
    -Min’s enjoying Rand’s hiding as a suspicious man with information for Nynaeve. She calls him Nuli.
    -Nynaeve realizes what Egwene realized earlier about the importance of the Oath Rod to the image of an Aes Sedai when she’s about to get turned upside down by the Windfinders.
    -Nynaeve discovers soft points in the shield that Talaan puts on her. Points that get hard and more breakable when the shield is tied off.
    -Nynaeve regrets trying to teach the Kin to show some backbone. :rolleyes
    -Rand and Lan talk cryptically (at least to the women there). They talk about not being strong enough to send Nynaeve or Min/Elayne/Aviendha away.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  9. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    One of my favorite Mat scenes was in the reading this week! :joy

    He's SO completely stunned when he realizes who Tuon is. And leave it to the Seanchan to have some weird custom where just saying she's his wife three times is binding. :lol
     
  10. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Mafia Admin Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    Yeah, that was great. I finished it the other night and I enjoyed it a lot more than I remember the first time I read it! Mat's story throughout the book is good and I even enjoyed the Andor stuff.
     
  11. Ryu Shadowborn

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    WH : 27

    Elayne is awesome here, she manipulates the Borderlands Rulers in epic ways.

    WH : 28

    Woo Mat's escape! This is one of my favorite sequences in the series. I quite enjoy the original plan here, Thom being able to forge signatures is a great bit of awesomeness from him. I wonder if Seanchan have any concepts like The Game of Houses.

    WH : 29

    Well, Mat's luck saved him here. Giving him Sul'dam that he desperately needed when he really needed them.

    WH : 30

    And this is where Egeanin starts to fall apart as a character. Previously while a bit uptight she was savvy enough to be commanded by others when needed. Here she seems to assume that Mat is her servant and not a partner in this escapade.

    WH : 31

    I wonder if Noal knows who Tuon is here, It is obvious he knew what was going on. (he isn't stupid), and Mat is halfway married. Though it makes me wonder about the Aelfinn's visions. The only reason he ends up Marrying Tuon is because he knew he would marry her. Tuon plays along because of the fortelling she has heard.

    Also Goodbye Tylin, I am sorry I hate you so much if not for being a creepy Rapist you would have been a great character.

    WH : 32

    Oh Verin you are just the bestest. Seriously nobody but Ingtar is better than Verin. Is it just me or does Verin actually exemplify all of the Ajahs in her actions at one point or another, She focuses on one higher calling like the Blues, She Mediates between Cadsuane and Rand like a Grey, in Emmond's Field she acts like a Green, she uses Logic like a White. She helps to mend the split in the tower by allowing Egwene to clear out the Black Ajah which is sort of yellow, about the only thing she doesn't ever do is something in the Red Ajah domain.

    So how did Padan Fain get away from the 50 or so guards that were at the door of the house he was in?

    WH : 33

    Rand also refuses to Let Lan go, of course that doesn't help because they both fall and Rand very likely FELL ON LAN.
     
  12. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    Chapter 12:
    -Rand warns the women to stay away from all Asha’man without further explanation. Despite his certainty that something is going on in the Black Tower, he still doesn’t go deal with it yet. :rolleyes
    -Rand just assumes Mat is with the Band with Egwene’s army.
    -Rand still believes Alviarin’s letter and thinks he has hidden friends in the White Tower. Considering his mistrust of Aes Sedai, I’m impressed how long he continues to believe this.
    -Elayne can tell Nynaeve is up to something with Rand.
    -Elayne’s confused that Rand isn’t using the Power to do everyday tasks like pouring himself wine like he used to.
    -Min knows that Elayne’s going to get pregnant with twins from her sex with Rand.
    -Min sees something weird with Aviendha’s children, but can’t tell what.
    -I keep forgetting who has met whom. Min hasn’t met Birgitte yet, though she knew that Elayne’s Warder was a woman and the head of her Guards. She figures out on her own who Birgitte is.
    -Birgitte has an insane number of auras around her.
    -Elayne can block Birgitte from feeling everything Elayne does, but if she breaks concentration, it goes away. I do feel bad for Birgitte and Min here…
    -Alivia vanished to go with Nynaeve. This understandably worries everyone in Caemlyn considering how crazy powerful she is.
    -Nynaeve and Lan leave with powerful angreal and ter’angreal. They’re planning something big.

    Chapter 13:
    -Four Aes Sedai ask to serve Rand on the same day without consulting each other. It’s attributed to ta’veren, while actually Verin had something to do with it.
    -Cadsuane considers her failure to root out the Black Ajah her biggest failure, along with failing to know what Moiraine was up to in the Borderlands.
    -Cadsuane had to question Shalon and Ailil for days to learn what they were doing together, though it turned out to be harmless. (except that it allowed for blackmail)
    -Damer Flinn has learned to Heal Stilling, though unlike Nynaeve his first attempt didn’t result in a reduction in strength.
    -Neither Cadsuane nor Corele knows about Nynaeve being able to Heal Stilling and think that Damer’s Healing is the first time it’s been done. A man is the first person to figure out how to Heal a Stilled woman.
    -Demandred is scornful of the current level of technology.
    “The Great Lord only knows what else is crawling toward us by horse, or sheep, or whatever else these savages can find to carry a message.”
    -Cuendillar wineglass
    -Graendal is wearing a gold ring angreal
    -Moridin has a rat that he incinerates just to emphasize a point. (unless there’s some other reason I’m missing)
    -Only Moridin can use the True Power now and he uses it a lot.
    -Peaches are poisonous, and they possibly weren’t poisonous in the Age of Legends.
    -No one (besides Moridin) knows who Cyndane is. Demandred had initially thought she was Lanfear, but dismissed that when he realized she was much weaker than Lanfear had been. (due to her time on the other side of the doorframe ter’angreal)
    -

    Chapter 14:
    -The Seanchan are big on honor, similar to the Aiel.
    -Tuon was angry with a damane for giving a bad fortune, causing her to conceal her face with a veil and causing everyone to treat her as High Blood, rather than the daughter of the Empress. Ta’veren or just plain luck, this has a pretty large impact. Mat doesn’t realize who Tuon is until it’s much too late. (though his actions possibly would’ve still been the same)
    -In the White Tower, using the Power is referred to as weaving. In Seanchan, it’s referred to as spinning.
    -Tuon likes training damane as much as she does training horses. :desk Gah, I keep almost liking Tuon (I at least find her PoV fascinating), but stuff like this just really makes me despise her.
    -‘Mylen’, an Aes Sedai, is now Tuon’s favorite damane and her pride and joy. She considers her a perfect damane.
    -The Ogier in the Deathwatch Guard are still called Gardeners.
    -Ronde Macura is now in the service of Tuon.
    -According to Tuon, everyone knew damane could tell the future. Is this true? :scratch Is this some sort of Foretelling?
    -Truthspeakers only serve the royal family, though some of the Blood like to call their Voices Soe’feia and are thus confused at the liberty the royal family ‘allows’ their Soe’feia.
    -Tuon doesn’t like her new Soe’feia… Semirhage. Good instincts, Tuon.

    Chapter 15:
    -Aludra! :D
    -The Seancha made all the Illuminators da’covale. :blink Aludra is understandably pissed.
    -Luca doesn’t like Mat and, so, Mat doesn’t like Luca. Mat thinks Luca looks constantly smug and is constantly smirking at women and thinks they’re always looking at him, even though he’s married. Luca probably dislikes Mat for similar reasons.
    -Mat advises Olver to be reserved and shy to attract women. Coming from Mat, Olver doesn’t understand this advice at all.
    -The dice start tumbling in Mat’s head ahead of his meeting Tuon.

    Chapter 16:
    -The Return arrives for real. Seanchan come to settle the continent.
    -The gholam needs to avoid notice, though it’s weird that it takes the time to tell Mat this. It would make more sense to not divulge this to Mat since all it does is make Mat take more precautions to not be alone.
    -The gholam disappearing into a wall reminds Mat of Mordeth.
    -Noal! :joy

    Chapter 17:
    -There are a lot of Windfinder damane.
    -It is wise of the sul’dam to have a Seanchan-born damane to help the Windfinders adjust.
    -Mat sees Teslyn with a sul’dam. Even Mat, who hates Aes Sedai and Teslyn in particular, thinks that he would never wish this on her. Nor does he believe what he says that it’s at least better than being dead.
    -Noal recognizes Mat as a leader, someone others will follow.
    -Mat’s first impression of Tuon is that she’s a little girl with a shaved head… and the dice stop rolling in his head.
    -Andddd Tuon asks to buy Mat. :facepalm
    -Tuon seems to have a lot of affection for Sutoh and says that she’s like a sister to her and Suroth. She tries to sooth Tylin and assure her that she’s safe and destined for great things. Again, sometimes I really like Tuon and cheer for her… and then she starts talking about buying people.
    -Tylin doesn’t even know who Tuon is, just that she’s the High Lady Tuon.
     
  13. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Mafia Admin Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    Oh! I forgot to mention-- what the heck is up with the enforced pregnancy diet they put Elayne on? They barely let her eat. That seems super unhealthy. Also, when I was a teenager it was literally my worst nightmare to get pregnant the first time I had sex. D: Those are some pretty long odds, honestly. Is that the only time the have sex? I can't remember.
     
  14. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    Kassina, I agree, I like Tuon, except when it comes to her skewed world-view and her following actions :look She is a skilled politician and a good person who wants what is best for her people. But she has some very strange ideas about what that is :look
     
  15. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    Servants in The Wetlands are just daft. They all need a good boxing on their ears.
     
  16. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 28-33

    Yes, that was the only time they had sex (multiple times). It was their first meeting since Elayne left Tear to go to Tanchico after spending 4 days canoodling (short of sex) in the corners of the Stone of Tear, interrupted by lessons to Rand on how to rule Tear :arch .
     
  17. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    I had forgotten how much Mat is in this book, and I'm loving it.
     
  18. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Citizen

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    WH : 34

    This chapter is one of the big reasons that I loath Cadsuane. She continually moans about “not wanting to break this woman” while absolutely ignoring other options that she had. Instead of doing this garbage plan with using wells, mention that There are 11 Clans of Aiel who will show up around Far Madding and then Swoop in and say “Well I could take him, the Aiel know me and respect me.”

    However Cadsuane enjoys bullying people, it is why she does it to everyone even when there are better options.

    WH :35

    This is a long arse chapter.

    Rand – Rand's plan here is quite genius. He is using the fact that Mash'adar and The Taint are simliar enough to each other to attract each other like a magnet while The two halves of the power are like opposite poles and will push at each other.

    I do wonder how the taint was cleansed in other turnings of the wheel since Mordeth/Fain/Ordeith/whatever is supposedly something unique to this weaving of the wheel.

    Elza - Wouldn't it have been better for her to not be leading the circle? That way she can claim she had no power over if one of the Forsaken got killed?

    Lanfear – I hate being in Lanfear's head. It is not a happy place to be.

    Demandred – I wonder if Demandred had an idea of how Rand would cleanse the taint before he realized where Rand was doing it.

    Verin – I am surprised that Verin is dumb enough to not go for a killing blow against an enemy first thing. Sure she would not know about inverting weaves and the like, however she is savvy enough to not assume she knows more than she thinks she does.

    Eben – This is why proficiency with martial weapons should be a requirement among Aes Sedai. Linking and Circles are a thing. You know what happens if Eben had a sword and was close enough to do an Iai Draw? Halima would have been screwed.

    Lanfear – I enjoy the fast pace of POV switching and the “fog of war” that Jordan gives us by not giving much information in each scene but I wish we got to see more of this fight.

    Elza – Bye bye Osan'gar, Balefire gets trumped by at least one weave. The GIANTFIREBALLTOTHEFACE weave.

    Moghidean – I am surprised there was not some mention of Mashadar trying to approach the dome of taint.

    Cadsuane – I wonder what Lan did for the entire battle. It would have been great if Damedred and Lan had a preview fight as Damedred tried to hide and not use the power so he would have to fight Sword to Sword.

    And Said'ain is cleasned, the largest climax the series could have outside of Tarmon'gaiden itself.
     
  19. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    I have always had a hard time understanding the mechanics of this Cleansing... I mean, I understand the theory, but are they implying that Rand somehow channeled ALL of saidin? How can that be, when the Source is not a measurable thing?
     
  20. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    I really dislike the ending of this book. I enjoyed everything a lot until these last few chapters. I know it's mentioned a few times that Rand wants to cleanse saidin, but suddenly he's in Far Madding and then suddenly it's happening and there's a battle and it's done. :blink The first time I read the book years ago, I had to backup and reread a bit because it caught me so much by surprise that the cleansing was happening. This time wasn't much better, even though I knew it was coming.

    Maybe it's because I get so wrapped up in the Mat chapters that whatever Rand is doing is just not interesting to me at all. I have just barely enough time to start to enjoy the Far Madding plot, when suddenly they're gone from there. After the dramatic fall, we get a glimpse of Rand having a panic attack, Cadsuane does her thing, and they're GONE and on to the next plot.

    :tug

    This is the last book I read before I put down the series many years ago and didn't pick it up again until I got dragged along to meet Robert Jordan with a friend and decided he was so nice that I should give his series a second chance.