Amylia just got through books 7-8 and needs to squel (spoiler for books 7-8))

Amylia Lerato

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OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH. It's currently 5:30 in the morning I am hopped up on enough pain meds for my wisdom teeth recovery to knock out a rabbit and I just finished a crown of swords. I AM SCREAMING. (metaphorically of course, I am trying to be polite). I am about to go on a rand (autocorrected rant but thought I'd keep it because it's appropriate).
First:
This was probs the darkest of the books so far, I needed to take a number of short breaks to breath because it did become too much
One of the most disturbing parts of this book were the THREE instances of assault. Morgase, Mat and Moghedian.
Morgase was the most classic representation of SA and when reading it just felt disguisting. Her bodily autonomy being taken, the reaction from her maid telling her to grin and bear it, genuinely awful. And followed by the Seachan showing up it felt like blow after blow with no real respite. I had this absolutely visceral fear reading that they would try and turn her into a Damane which would have made that section so so much worse. I was almost rooting for her to kill herself so she could regain any sort of power.
Then, not a short while after Mat! Holy sh*t. This was almost worse. The level of victim blaming from everyone was genuinely ridiculous and the fact that Tylin was meant to be sympathetic! There was this line that stuck with me that drove the point home "he would never have pursued a woman who made it known she did not want it" and that made the rest of the characters reaction even more horrifying. My favourite character, Elayne, laughing at him, the fear he had to return to the palace and the fact that the incident repeated himself. Tylin telling him he must've enjoyed himself felt disgusting and then the final exchange between the two! That felt like such a betrayal, like we'd had so many clear points where what happened to mat was clearly rape. His horror when she pushes him against the bed post and he realises what is about to happen, the way he feels guilty the next day but then acknowledges that he didn't say yes and had no power to stop Tylin. And then him telling her he'd miss her and "he'd been the one doing the pursuing next time". There were few points that made me that angry in the series than that moment.
Then Mogehdian. This was so much more implied but that didn't make it any less disturbing. The implications of what her captor had done to her (I cant remember the quote but I believe it was about how hed done worse things to her body than kill her). My interpretation could be way off but it still stung to see a villain I'd loved to hate be in such an awful position. Slavery has always had a part in Wheel of time as a big theme but the slavery after a villain being violated felt horrible. I felt guilty for being sorry for her because SHES A FORSAKEN goddammit but no one deserves that.
Moving on to less depressing topics. I kinda love the sea folk, I don't know why but I confused them with the Seachan for a while and when I realised they were two different groups it kinda made them more awesome. Also the detail that talents are more common in different groups of people due to the enviroment was such a cool detail. Of course the seafolk can control the wind, thats so much more useful to them than healing would be.
Moving on to Min and Rand, oh my gosh adorable. I have not rooted for a Randmance previously, it felt like Elayne and Aviendha were kinda snogging him so he could get something out of it. Like, now he knows politics, now he knows the Aiel, but Min felt different. They had this amazing friendship that seemed to flow naturally into romance and it just felt right! I actually started liking Rand a lot more through this book, he stopped bejng whiny farmboy and was just a sweet idiot who just needed a hug. Yes he has all this power but he's trying his best. He is now in my list of characters I feel a bit protective of and would likely die for.
Speaking of fiercely protective of I am very protective of mat now. Single Dad Mat Cauthawn was not something I knew I needed but apparently I did. He may have become my favourite character in this book. Also his friendship with Brigitte is adorable. I was giggling along with both of them, the absolute best bit of the book I think.
Star Wars Meme GIF
(I couldn't find the originalso have this weird edited version)
Now for the 90s girl band that is Aviendha, Nynaeve, Elayne and Brigitte. This was my second favourite part of the series. Baby spice (Elayne) and grumpy spice (Nynaeve) having the issues with not being recognised as Aes Sedai had me cackling. Elayne being a little bit offended but trying to be calm and Nynaeve about to bite people is just cute. Such an adorable friendship. And Aviendha just fit into the group so well! I loved it so so much.
I never liked Egwene much, but she has started growing on me as Amylrin. She kinda felt like the Vanilla of all the characters, but as Amyrlin she SHINES. Her and Suin are such an interesting pair, I just adore it so much. Its almost this tiny bit jelous Aunt that likes her neice a little too much to be mad at her.
Now for the one not so glowing review. Perrin. Look I liked his storyline in book 6 but it's just gotten boring now. Like we get it, Him and Faile have a relationship that could buy their couples therapist a literal palace. He's become the whiny farm boy that Rand was in earlier books and I just want to punch him in the face. I liked Perrin before, since Faile it has been a downward slide that just annoys me.
Finally, before I move on to speculation and confusion, The final sequence was AWESOME. The mysterious dude showing up so cool, the crown of swords being real holy sh*t I freaking loved that sequence so so so much. Side note: don't quite know how I feel about Dashiva.
Speculation time, Cadsuane seems evil. Not sure why but I have a theory that she might be a dark friend very suspicious of her. Also the mysterious man, yeah I think thats the Dark one himself.
I am a little bit confused on what happened with Savanah Sammael and Graendal, I got a bit lost.
Anyway thanks for reading this incoherant mess so looking forward to book 8!
 
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Aduiavas Ida

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I agree with most of what you said. I am also not really a fan of early books Egwene, but I love her as the Amyrlin. I won't spoil anything, but I suspect you will like her more and more as you read on ;)
I agree that what happens to Mat is awful. It is extra awful because even the author doesn't seem to see it for what it is. It is by far the worst part of this book, just because of the way it is handled. To Elayne's credit, she does see how bad it is later on. She is tainted by how Nynaeve always describes him, which he doesn't completely deserve.

As for Perrin, I'm afraid that will only get worse :(
 

Anika Forsyn

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That book does stand out as avoiding the info dump which makes many of the books a bit of slog. On a podcast I listen to they call Nynaeve, Elayne, and Aviendha the Nynaeve detective agency but I love your nickname waaaayyy more :laugh:
 

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I very much feel that this is where RJ remembered he had a third lead character in Perrin. I also maintain that readers would be more accepting of the forces relationship friction if we got any pov time with Faile leading into Winters Heart.
 

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Love all of this review.
They had this amazing friendship that seemed to flow naturally into romance and it just felt right!
Especially connected with this.

And Matt, he truly is the best.
 

Satara al'Caelahn

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I agree that what happens to Mat is awful. It is extra awful because even the author doesn't seem to see it for what it is. It is by far the worst part of this book, just because of the way it is handled. To Elayne's credit, she does see how bad it is later on. She is tainted by how Nynaeve always describes him, which he doesn't completely deserve.
I disagree with this. The subject matter was something that, when the books were written, wasn't something that was ever really talked about or addressed, culturally speaking, especially when the victim is male. Robert Jordan included it precisely because of that. Because it was shining a bit of a light on something that people wouldn't even admit existed, and he did it in a way that both highlighted how absolutely horrible it is, but was "soft" enough for people to be able to read and still be in denial about it if they wanted. RJ was very forward thinking for his time in that regard. Not that he's not a flawed author, but I don't think this was one of those flaws.
 

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BABY SPICE AND GRUMPY SPICE :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 

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I agree with Satara that RJ often chose to shine a light on topics in a way that he could get people to tolerate or accept. In addition, one thing that you find, IMO, as you go on with the series, is that he consistently shows people as realistically flawed. They have both good and bad qualities, and just like real people, sometimes it's the case that a "good" person will attempt to justify doing some objectively awful things, and a "bad" person may have moments of humanity and heroism. There's very rarely anyone who is purely good or purely evil that isn't a straight-up construct or supernatural being...and I think even those could be debated. To me, the messiness and the shades of gray are really part of what I love about the world of the books, and what makes that world feel so real. It's not artificially sanitized into a strict good and evil binary. In fact, most of the binaries in the story really are artificial when you boil it down. That doesn't make the awful things that happen to characters any less awful, of course, but for me at least, it provides a sense of perspective.
 
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I very much feel that this is where RJ remembered he had a third lead character in Perrin. I also maintain that readers would be more accepting of the forces relationship friction if we got any pov time with Faile leading into Winters Heart.
I agree, Faile always came across as a spoiled brat sub, who just simply assumed Perrin would know what she wanted from him.

A lot of authors use the miscommunication troupe to "add conflict" in a relationship that would be close to perfect if they just TALKED to each other.
 

Boreas Silverfir

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I agree, Faile always came across as a spoiled brat sub, who just simply assumed Perrin would know what she wanted from him.
She really has all the potential to be a powerful foil for Elayne and just doesn't get any screentime to show she's competent at things or has relationship anxiety like Elayne dose.
 

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A lot of authors use the miscommunication troupe to "add conflict" in a relationship that would be close to perfect if they just TALKED to each other.
Agreed. It was particularly apparent with Faile. I like this insight. I remember that as one of the frustrating aspects during my reading..."C'mon guys, just talk" and then when I see it happen with myself in real life - I'm like, whoops...guess we should have just talked and not assumed each others intentions!
 
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Him and Faile have a relationship that could buy their couples therapist a literal palace
This is such a great way to describe it!! lol
Perrin was my fave of the three guys in the first book or two, and I didn't like Mat much (thought he was too whiney)...tho that completely changed over the rest of the books.
 

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I actually just finished this book maybe 3/4 months ago, and toward the end of it, I was like
OOOOOOOOOH He's going to go fight him!!!
Was so excited with how it concluded.
 

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So...14/15 year-old me, reading about the SA on all three of those...

Morgase...flew right over my head. Did not register. Whatsoever.

Mat...i kinda read him as a "player," and again, being the inexperienced child who didn't think about the dark side of relationships, i just read it as it was presented, as almost a joke, and didn't think past that.

Moghedien ... again... right over my head.

Now that I'm older, yup. I get mad every time i read those parts. I love this series, but there are things that just...
 

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I mean, that's true too. You can criticize something and still love it.
 

Ruslan Rynar

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RJ said he lived in the country and that he did not think country folk would just go along with someone that said they needed to go. I think due to Perrin returning home to the Two Rivers we see him revert a bit to his simpler way of life, or at least the influences of a simpler life become stronger. Thus, when he behaves less like a hero and more like a guy in over his head/a guy with a narrow focus, people find him annoying and/or boring.
 

Amylia Lerato

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The Path of daggers
So all through the path of daggers I took notes on what I wanted to discuss here so this will likely be a tad more coherant than last time. I am currently on holiday with my family at the beach and I've been reading on the beach almost every day. Hence why I'm chowing through the wheel of time like salt and vinegar chips. I also didn't want to make another thread and spam everyone considering the pace I'm going at. I changed the title to reflect that there's now spoilers for book 8.
Let's start with everyone's favourite character to hate on Faile.
we had a total of 2 and a half chapters of her perspective and Oh my gosh it changed everything. We got some insight into what the heck the wannabee Aeil were up to and damn our girl Faile is clever. She's so good at finding out how to use people to her advantage and play the politics, something which Perrin is remarkably sh*t at. Her biggest strength is the thing her husband is BLIND to, so every time we see her through Perrins eyes she seems ridiculous. We can only see her flaws, because Perrin isn't able to appreciate how good she is at politics. (Side note, are we certain Perrin actually likes Faile. Like it seems like he's put her on this pedestal and kinda doesn't actually understand who she is as a person. I'm pretty sure he just loves the idea of her.) The second problem in their relationship that makes Faile seem far far too bossy in their relationship is actually Faile's relationship with her Mum. Her Mum has brought her up with this expectation that she essentially needs to manipulate her husband like she would a political actor. "You must learn to manage your husband". This means Faile is in a position where she can't talk to ANYONE about her feelings, she always has to be playing the part. She has been brought up with an expectation that your partner is an obstacle to move around rather than a PARTNER. Another instance where this "manage your husband" view has really had a negative impact is her relationship with Berelain. There's this line where she talks about how she would have been friends with Berelain if Perrin didn't exist and I completely agree. Berelain and Faile are two women who have been put in a position where they expect everyone to constantly be manipulating them for political gain, neither can trust ANYONE. If Faile could trust Perrin enough to not cheat on her her and Berelain might be able to find common ground and improve both of their characterisation. Another issue that we get is this cultural differences between the Saldeans and Perrin. There's a few times that Faile mentions that not standing up to ypur partner is seen as you not respecting them. Perrin clearly believes that shouting at Faile would be him not respecting her. So you get that culture clash. We kind of saw this with Rand and Aviendha, but that relationship was actually able to explore the issues of an intercultural relationship because we saw Aviendha's culture. So we understood that this was a CULTURE thing not an Aviendha thing. Since we so rarely get to see Faile's perspective we assume it's a Faile issue rather looking further into it. I'm really excited to see Faile and Perrin seperated because maybe we get some time in Faile's head because I freaking loved her when I actually got to see her perspective. This strong independant clever woman who has been brought up to expect everyone to be lying to her. Tragic but so ripe for good character development.
Now for The spice girls.
I don't have a heap to say about them. Except for the battle between them and the Seanchan was nailbiting and so so good. One of the best battle sequences I've read. Sporty spice (Brigitte) figuring out strategy so ginger spice (Aviendha) could throw fireballs at them. Amazing just Amazing. I have also come to the conclusion that Ginger spice and Baby spice (Elayne) would be a better couple than 90% of the couples so far. They respect and genuinely like eachother as well as actually communicating. Elayne and Aviendha also put in effort to understand eachothers cultural differences something that Perrin is completly inept at. Also Wtf is up with Scary (Nynaeve). Dude you and Lan fell in love because ur the kind of people who dont have time for feeling and just want to get the job done. You had a healthy relationship before where you didn't need to spend 24/7 with him. WHAT IS HAPPENING????? Get your sh*t together girl. I do love that she recognised that and told Elayne to help her out. I love Alise and Mirelle is slowly becoming more and more awesome. Honestly love her.
Now for Egwene
I liked this sequene I just don't have alot to say about it. Some parts were a bit to exposition heavy for my liking. But I do get why they did that. The bit where she essentially flipped off the halll had me wanting to cheer, I am adoring Egwene at the moment. And the friendship between her and Suin is fantastic. Say what you will about the female characters in wot but the female friendships are just gold. I did enjoy Egwene and Suin talking about Gareth. They spent so much time strategising it was awesome when we got to have a bit of a break and just act like teenage girls at a sleepover. Don't know how I feel about Suin and Gareth yet.
Elaida
For some reason I thought Elaida was black Ajah, turns out she's power hungry to the point of just being stupid. I mean I get it but her decisions are just dumb at this point. The spanish inquisition was odd but worth it. Looking forward to the take over.
Rand
So the Rand storyline was definitely something. Someone get him a therapist ASAP, you'd expect with the madness stuff the Aes Sedai would have an Ajah dedicated to phsychology, might have been a bit of a better idea than the red Ajah just killing everyone. Probably would look better for PR aswell. Just a suggestion Egwene. Anyway, this bit did have a good discussion on what madness actually is. In the DSM5 definition of Schitzophrenia Paranoia is definately part of it. And I think Schitzophrenia is kind of what the madness from Saidin is modelled after.
I do have a question though. Can Rand bond someone, obviously he's bonded to Alanna but if he wasn't could he bond someone who wasn't a channeler. Women do that all the time, or does the warder bond have something to do with Saidar. If he can bond someone who isn't a channeller he needs to bond Bashere ASAP. Also can Alanna sense when he channels through the bond?
Min
Okay. My first question to do with the Min sequence is Do they not have locks in Randland? People keep walking in on her and Rand getting spicy but seriously GET A LOCK FOR YOUR BEDROOM. Also he should NOT have left the Aiel before going in to battle. VERY BAD CHOICE. Finally Min you need to go with him, he is making some very sh*tty decisions and cannot be left unsupervised.
Cadsuane and Sorilea
This is kind of a side not at the end here but these two are kind of awesome. I really want to see Cadsuane, Sorilea and Min have some interactions about why Rand needs to actually process his emotions. Cadsuane and Sorilea could be part of the therapy Ajah is what I'm saying.

Anyway thanks for reading again. On to book 9!!!
 

Boreas Silverfir

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Let's start with everyone's favourite character to hate on Faile
I love that you feel this way. I wholeheartedly agree. Perrin is my favorite and the one I identify with best. I really wish we got a better idea of both sides of every argument there with Faile. I too feel like if we got more of her perspective earlier in the series, Like in Dragon Reborn even, we'd recognize her as a perfect foil for Elayne. Faile's relationship with Perrin has the same socio-economic challenges Rand & Elayne have with the added twist that she's from a clear other country and culture. I would love it if in those sequences we could see her recognizing his steadfast nature as an admirable trait that anyone from the borderlands would love. I'd love for the anxiety chapters where she's fretting about "does he really like me as much as I like him" that could explain the hot jealousy she has at times.
People might not like her more if we got that, but I think they'd understand her more which could cool how venomous folks can get about her.
 

Ruslan Rynar

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Also Wtf is up with Scary (Nynaeve). Dude you and Lan fell in love because ur the kind of people who dont have time for feeling and just want to get the job done. You had a healthy relationship before where you didn't need to spend 24/7 with him. WHAT IS HAPPENING????? Get your sh*t together girl. I do love that she recognised that and told Elayne to help her out.

IMO, part of it is that Nynaeve was rarely ABLE to spend so much time with him. But I'm doing a reread now, and when they were in the Stone of Tear in book four before going their separate ways, there was a fair bit about how much time they spent together. They were essentially in a really messed up long-distance relationship so far.

Elaida
For some reason I thought Elaida was black Ajah, turns out she's power hungry to the point of just being stupid. I mean I get it but her decisions are just dumb at this point. The spanish inquisition was odd but worth it. Looking forward to the take over.
There is a long somewhere in the series where someone says that they thought she was too stupid/power-hungry even for the Black Ajah to want her—like she would be a threat rather than an asset to the BA if she were a part of it.

Min
Okay. My first question to do with the Min sequence is Do they not have locks in Randland? People keep walking in on her and Rand getting spicy but seriously GET A LOCK FOR YOUR BEDROOM.
The early books talk about how easy it is to pick a lock or open it with the OP. Another part of this is that Rand does a lot of leading/ruling from the bedroom of wherever he is. You kind of want to be like... dude, there are other rooms.
 
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