Rhed al'Tere
Aes Sedai
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- #381
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
Elaida fascinates me. I admire her in some ways.
Elaida fascinates me. I admire her in some ways.
2015 Re-Readalong: Eye of the World and The Great Hunt
- Thread starter Rhed al'Tere
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- #382
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
Elaida tries... Alviarin tries to mess it all up..
Alviarin is the most successful..
Elaida is still a douche though. That is one of the reasons it even worked :\
And we'll talk more about that when we get there...
Elaida tries... Alviarin tries to mess it all up..
Alviarin is the most successful..
Elaida is still a douche though. That is one of the reasons it even worked :\
And we'll talk more about that when we get there...
Imzadi Hopewind
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
In chapter 5 Lindarin think that she gotta do her orders, that one is done and more to come... So I guess it's the order she got earlier when all the darkfriends?
In chapter 5 Lindarin think that she gotta do her orders, that one is done and more to come... So I guess it's the order she got earlier when all the darkfriends?
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
@unseen eyes - onset of madness: Is Rand ever going mad - aside from his struggles with Lews Therin? I'd say no, not really.
But now some chapter notes:
Chs 2/3: Due to insufficient briefing, Rand panics and does things he'll come to regret. Blame on Moiraine, manipulating to the bone.
- Why did Siuan come to Fal Dara? OK, to talk to Moiraine and make plans. But this is just what we readers know. What reason did she give the hall without lying (which she can't)? The battle at the Gap?
There would certainly have been an opportunity for secure communication with Tar Valon during the four weeks, pigeon (encrypted), trusted messenger, you name it. Just saying "we found one of the seals" would have provided innocent reason for the visit. But Moiraine withheld all information.
- And why with that pomp, soldiers and 16 sisters? No answer available, except that it gives the author the opportunity to show us some of the women that will become important later - Liandrin, Verin, Anayia, Alanna ...
Ch 4/5: Egwene shows initiative, and that will take her far ... well, we thought so.
Everyone at the tower is nervous, has the feeling that "the tower is losing its grip on events". Umh, how much of it did the tower have? And how much was just fruitless meddling?
Elaida's foretelling and her accusations against Moiraine of course made the situation worse.
But what indicators are there for the nervousness? The Hunt called in Ilian; the Sea Folk agitated; false Dragons ("and there are always men to follow a Dragon"), "Darkfriends popping up like redbells after a rain", social unrest in some nations ...
We are trained to look for material causes for social unrest, no matter if it is dressed in a religious costume, as often was the case in RL history. E.g., what made people think they'd live better under the DO than under Morgase Trakand? There ought to be more than one bad harvest. No answer available; one thing, however, is certain: the Tower will always side with the powers-to-be and against all causes that threaten them, no matter how justified they are. Politically, it's as conservative and even reactionary as can be, and this is where its wealth and power come from.
- After the plans for the Dragon Reborn just have failed, Moiraine proposes a new one - which might have had disastrous consequences if it did not fail instantly, too - bless the Light.
@unseen eyes - onset of madness: Is Rand ever going mad - aside from his struggles with Lews Therin? I'd say no, not really.
But now some chapter notes:
Chs 2/3: Due to insufficient briefing, Rand panics and does things he'll come to regret. Blame on Moiraine, manipulating to the bone.
- Why did Siuan come to Fal Dara? OK, to talk to Moiraine and make plans. But this is just what we readers know. What reason did she give the hall without lying (which she can't)? The battle at the Gap?
There would certainly have been an opportunity for secure communication with Tar Valon during the four weeks, pigeon (encrypted), trusted messenger, you name it. Just saying "we found one of the seals" would have provided innocent reason for the visit. But Moiraine withheld all information.
Indeed there is trouble, and would that not have been a reason to stay there?
- And why with that pomp, soldiers and 16 sisters? No answer available, except that it gives the author the opportunity to show us some of the women that will become important later - Liandrin, Verin, Anayia, Alanna ...
Ch 4/5: Egwene shows initiative, and that will take her far ... well, we thought so.
Three or four months? Or let it be six ...
- What was Moiraine's position in the Tower / in the Blue Ajah? What among still nearly a thousand Aes Sedai made her so important? (Except perhaps the friendship with Siuan, which plenty of people have NOT forgotten. Hence bashing her may just be a proxy to get at Siuan.)
Everyone at the tower is nervous, has the feeling that "the tower is losing its grip on events". Umh, how much of it did the tower have? And how much was just fruitless meddling?
Elaida's foretelling and her accusations against Moiraine of course made the situation worse.
But what indicators are there for the nervousness? The Hunt called in Ilian; the Sea Folk agitated; false Dragons ("and there are always men to follow a Dragon"), "Darkfriends popping up like redbells after a rain", social unrest in some nations ...
We are trained to look for material causes for social unrest, no matter if it is dressed in a religious costume, as often was the case in RL history. E.g., what made people think they'd live better under the DO than under Morgase Trakand? There ought to be more than one bad harvest. No answer available; one thing, however, is certain: the Tower will always side with the powers-to-be and against all causes that threaten them, no matter how justified they are. Politically, it's as conservative and even reactionary as can be, and this is where its wealth and power come from.
- After the plans for the Dragon Reborn just have failed, Moiraine proposes a new one - which might have had disastrous consequences if it did not fail instantly, too - bless the Light.
Oh, Moiraine ... :arch
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Megana Vallentin
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
I'm halfway through this week's readings.
Chapter 2:
I was wondering, why wait until NOW to replace all the boys' clothes? If she had done it sooner, they'd have just probably accepted it reluctantly and been fine. Doing it with the arrival of the Amyrlin just causes chaos.
Chapter 3:
This chapter had so much stupid. Rand driving his friends away. Egwene SITTING on Rand when they fight. Visiting Fain. And so on. They are SO young and silly!
Chapter 4:
I feel like I should stop and read New Spring right here. When we get inside Moiraine's head, there is still NO indication that she and Siuan are friends! It still shocks me when they finally get to be alone and suddenly they're hugging. WHAT!
Chapter 5:
Okay now the clothes make more sense. She wanted to get rid of the old things and leave no time for anyone to have acquired bits of the new things. Glad that got explained, though it never bothered me until now.
What is up with the Whitecloaks? I don't even remember them being here. What a random breakaway.
Liandrin is reminding me a lot of Elaida right now.
I'm halfway through this week's readings.
Chapter 2:
I was wondering, why wait until NOW to replace all the boys' clothes? If she had done it sooner, they'd have just probably accepted it reluctantly and been fine. Doing it with the arrival of the Amyrlin just causes chaos.
Chapter 3:
This chapter had so much stupid. Rand driving his friends away. Egwene SITTING on Rand when they fight. Visiting Fain. And so on. They are SO young and silly!
Chapter 4:
I feel like I should stop and read New Spring right here. When we get inside Moiraine's head, there is still NO indication that she and Siuan are friends! It still shocks me when they finally get to be alone and suddenly they're hugging. WHAT!
Chapter 5:
Okay now the clothes make more sense. She wanted to get rid of the old things and leave no time for anyone to have acquired bits of the new things. Glad that got explained, though it never bothered me until now.
What is up with the Whitecloaks? I don't even remember them being here. What a random breakaway.
Liandrin is reminding me a lot of Elaida right now.
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, Chapter 42 - Chapter 48
Just wanted to pop in real fast and say I'm going to join in the re-reading. But I just started so I'm only on chapter 17 of EoTW. I'll catch up and join in the fun!
Just wanted to pop in real fast and say I'm going to join in the re-reading. But I just started so I'm only on chapter 17 of EoTW. I'll catch up and join in the fun!
Ashlyn Sindal
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
In The Dragon Reborn, Rand kills a bunch of people who may be darkfriends but may also just a merchant and her guards who his paranoid mind assumes are darkfriends (the text is not at all clear on which is actually true) and then uses the OP to make their corpses kneel to him while he monologues about being the Dragon Reborn. No sane person makes corpses kneel to them.
In The Dragon Reborn, Rand kills a bunch of people who may be darkfriends but may also just a merchant and her guards who his paranoid mind assumes are darkfriends (the text is not at all clear on which is actually true) and then uses the OP to make their corpses kneel to him while he monologues about being the Dragon Reborn. No sane person makes corpses kneel to them.
Imzadi Hopewind
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, Chapter 42 - Chapter 48
Yay! More people! More fun
Yay! More people! More fun
Ealandrelle Melyma
Aes Sedai
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
I took the unseen eyes to be some kind of offshoot of the fact that Fain was there. They had the same kind of sensation in Shadar Logoth - the watchers from within the buildings. Combine that with the wind blowing from the Blight...
I took the unseen eyes to be some kind of offshoot of the fact that Fain was there. They had the same kind of sensation in Shadar Logoth - the watchers from within the buildings. Combine that with the wind blowing from the Blight...
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
Yes, I rembember that episode well (and RJ had to quieten concerned readers in an interview by declaring they were all DFs all right, not just the Grey Man among them). But yours is a very special criterion of mental sanity - angry men sometimes do amazing / apalling things.
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- #391
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
We see here a lot of Siuan's troubles with the Hall. Two Greens and two Whites both treated Siuan as a Blue (as well as Leanne). they aren't named, but are probably Saroiya, Velina, Rubinde and Talene (assuming there were no changes in the Hall between this and when Suian is deposed). Rubinde, Talene and Velina because they voted to depose her, Saroiya because she is more likely than Seaine.
Moiraine's comment to Anaiya, that she leaves the Hall of the Tower to her was also odd, as neither were sitters
I agree with Murun as well - what was Moiraine up to that the Hall wanted to get her hands on her so much? Lots of Aes Sedai are out of the Tower on their own business. could it simply be because she was loaned an angreal and hadn't reported back enough?
It's also interesting that Siuan claims the talent of seeing Ta'veren is rarer than Ta'veren themselves. She is almost certainly wrong here (as with so many other things), but it does mean there have been other ta'veren she has seen that we never learn about - maybe people who were just ta'veren for a few weeks?
Next we get a bit of Forshadowing "I supose the Blacksmith will wear a crown and speak high chant"
After that we see what seems to be an effort to get the Seal from Bayle Domon, though how they know he has it is a mystery, or why they have no interest in the one in Tarabon
We then learn about the Aiel and how they won't touch a sword - which brings to mind the Green Man calling Rand a Child of the Dragon and asking about the Aiel returning to the first covenant - we could probably work out at this point that the Aiel are indeed the People of the Dragon from prophecy and that their ancestors in the Age of Legends didn't use weapons, but now will only not use swords.
It's also interesting that Rand spent so long looking at maps he knew of Almoth, Haredo and Caralain, but wasn't interested enough in his own home to notice it was part of Andor
We see here a lot of Siuan's troubles with the Hall. Two Greens and two Whites both treated Siuan as a Blue (as well as Leanne). they aren't named, but are probably Saroiya, Velina, Rubinde and Talene (assuming there were no changes in the Hall between this and when Suian is deposed). Rubinde, Talene and Velina because they voted to depose her, Saroiya because she is more likely than Seaine.
Moiraine's comment to Anaiya, that she leaves the Hall of the Tower to her was also odd, as neither were sitters
I agree with Murun as well - what was Moiraine up to that the Hall wanted to get her hands on her so much? Lots of Aes Sedai are out of the Tower on their own business. could it simply be because she was loaned an angreal and hadn't reported back enough?
It's also interesting that Siuan claims the talent of seeing Ta'veren is rarer than Ta'veren themselves. She is almost certainly wrong here (as with so many other things), but it does mean there have been other ta'veren she has seen that we never learn about - maybe people who were just ta'veren for a few weeks?
Next we get a bit of Forshadowing "I supose the Blacksmith will wear a crown and speak high chant"
After that we see what seems to be an effort to get the Seal from Bayle Domon, though how they know he has it is a mystery, or why they have no interest in the one in Tarabon
We then learn about the Aiel and how they won't touch a sword - which brings to mind the Green Man calling Rand a Child of the Dragon and asking about the Aiel returning to the first covenant - we could probably work out at this point that the Aiel are indeed the People of the Dragon from prophecy and that their ancestors in the Age of Legends didn't use weapons, but now will only not use swords.
It's also interesting that Rand spent so long looking at maps he knew of Almoth, Haredo and Caralain, but wasn't interested enough in his own home to notice it was part of Andor
Ashlyn Sindal
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
I don't think it's particularly "special" to consider using human corpses as puppets while talking to them a sign of mental instability. Even if you want to argue it's some kind of temporary thing brought on by anger, dude's nuttier than a fruitcake in that scene.
Gotta love that ironic foreshadowing. I've always wondered what happened between Ingtar and that Fade after Rand left.
Yes, I rembember that episode well (and RJ had to quieten concerned readers in an interview by declaring they were all DFs all right, not just the Grey Man among them). But yours is a very special criterion of mental sanity - angry men sometimes do amazing / apalling things.
I don't think it's particularly "special" to consider using human corpses as puppets while talking to them a sign of mental instability. Even if you want to argue it's some kind of temporary thing brought on by anger, dude's nuttier than a fruitcake in that scene.
Rand's internal monologue said:
Gotta love that ironic foreshadowing. I've always wondered what happened between Ingtar and that Fade after Rand left.
Imzadi Hopewind
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
Yeah, just finished that chapter and this stood out for me as well. Did Ingtar pretending fighting with the Fade, and once Rand were gone, the Fade walked away?
Was it Ingtar that let the Trollocs in and Fain out? Or?
Yeah, just finished that chapter and this stood out for me as well. Did Ingtar pretending fighting with the Fade, and once Rand were gone, the Fade walked away?
Was it Ingtar that let the Trollocs in and Fain out? Or?
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
This scene is rather muddled (with Eg and Mat left alive but conveniently unable to remember anything), but let it be so. RJ said in an interview Ingtar freed Fain and brought the fade and the trollocs to the dungeon, and we better believe him instead of starting a discussion that must remain inconclusive. Other scenarios might still fit as well or better.
And things continue in this somewhat improbable way, with Rand having just enough time to delete the text pointing at him, then Liandrin comes up, puts a nasty weave on him, and just when he is on the threshold to striking back with the Power, Moiraine comes to the scene ...
This scene is rather muddled (with Eg and Mat left alive but conveniently unable to remember anything), but let it be so. RJ said in an interview Ingtar freed Fain and brought the fade and the trollocs to the dungeon, and we better believe him instead of starting a discussion that must remain inconclusive. Other scenarios might still fit as well or better.
And things continue in this somewhat improbable way, with Rand having just enough time to delete the text pointing at him, then Liandrin comes up, puts a nasty weave on him, and just when he is on the threshold to striking back with the Power, Moiraine comes to the scene ...
Imzadi Hopewind
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
Ah, thanks! Didn't know about that fact RJ told about
Ah, thanks! Didn't know about that fact RJ told about
Megana Vallentin
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 2-9
Yes thanks Murun! I didn't know that either.
Remaining chapters for this week...
Chapter 6:
This reads SO much differently knowing about Ingtar.
Chapter 7:
I feel like there are a lot of names here that I should pay attention to. Pretty sure that every other time, I've kinda ignored or immediately forgotten them. Luc and Isam. Hawkwing's sons. And so on. So many pieces my brain never assembled. (Wow I could re-read these books forever and still be figuring this out I think.)
Verin scenes also read totally differently now.
Chapter 8:
Tam's history! I forgot this was in here! Again, something that means a lot more than it did before.
And a bit of Moiraine's past too. I definitely think in the future I will read the prequel book in between books 1 and 2. It's too much knowledge to read before book 1, but they reference so many things in book 2 that I'd rather have them more fully explained before I jump in here. I may take a quick break at some point to run through the prequel anyway.
Yes thanks Murun! I didn't know that either.
Remaining chapters for this week...
Chapter 6:
This reads SO much differently knowing about Ingtar.
Chapter 7:
I feel like there are a lot of names here that I should pay attention to. Pretty sure that every other time, I've kinda ignored or immediately forgotten them. Luc and Isam. Hawkwing's sons. And so on. So many pieces my brain never assembled. (Wow I could re-read these books forever and still be figuring this out I think.)
Verin scenes also read totally differently now.
Chapter 8:
Tam's history! I forgot this was in here! Again, something that means a lot more than it did before.
And a bit of Moiraine's past too. I definitely think in the future I will read the prequel book in between books 1 and 2. It's too much knowledge to read before book 1, but they reference so many things in book 2 that I'd rather have them more fully explained before I jump in here. I may take a quick break at some point to run through the prequel anyway.
Kassina Tendar
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 10-16
Thoughts from last week:
-We see Mat being lucky at dice!
-Fain is really creepy.
Maybe it's just that it's been so long since I've read these early books that I'm more used to the Red Ajah as they are when the series ends, but I'm continually surprised when I see quotes like this in these first couple books.
-Wow, Moiraine and Siuan are very lucky that Verin isn't a normal Black Ajah member. I'd forgotten how much she learns directly from them! (Even though she'd had her suspicions beforehand) And then she was present when Rand came to see the Amyrlin. (even though they didn't directly talk about him being the Dragon)
-We get a first hint that Leane is going to go Green later.
-I love Siuan just flat-out saying "I know you can channel." Way to catch him off guard. And I actually got chills when she told him "Because you are the Dragon Reborn." That's got to be quite a shock to hear that sort of thing and from the Amyrlin Seat herself. Though I find it really frustrating that Rand's already going on so much about how he can't trust any Aes Sedai. :rolleyes I realize he's been led to think that from all the stories he heard growing up and there's certainly truth to the stories of Aes Sedai manipulation... but come on, you can at least trust Moiraine! :facepalm She's saved your life so many times already. It's especially annoying this time around knowing Moiraine and Siuan so much better so I really want him to trust them. :\
They really can't win with Nynaeve or Rand. Either they gentle him and prove everything Nynaeve and Rand feared... or they do as they did and let him leave on his own without harming him and Nynaeve and Rand accuse them of plotting something because they didn't gentle him. :rolleyes
-I love Moiraine! :joy She and Nynaeve crack me up. "If your own use of the Power is not schooled, you will never be able to use it against me."
-That's quite daunting that Lan felt he had to tell Rand about Sheathing the Sword before he left. It's like "Hey, I know you have to leave, but before you go, let me just tell you. You may have to stab yourself at some point."
-It's quite scary to think of the Horn of Valere being used for the Shadow. :eek
-Who tried to shoot Rand? Presumably it was the same 'watcher' who seemed to be following him around earlier.
After Liandrin intimidates Amalisa, she goes back into the hall and:
And what is Moiraine keeping from Siuan? :scratch She told her everything about the boys and what they found at the Eye... What does she know about what's going on with the Seanchan that she doesn't want to tell Siuan?
Also, what did Moiraine, Siuan and Verin do in their meeting with Rand?? After he leaves, Siuan says "I cannot make myself like what we just did. It was necessary, but... Did it work, Daughters?" What is she referring to? Did they do something to him with the Power?
Thoughts from last week:
-We see Mat being lucky at dice!
-Fain is really creepy.
Some fun foreshadowing here.Moiraine said:
Maybe it's just that it's been so long since I've read these early books that I'm more used to the Red Ajah as they are when the series ends, but I'm continually surprised when I see quotes like this in these first couple books.-Wow, Moiraine and Siuan are very lucky that Verin isn't a normal Black Ajah member.
I'd forgotten how much she learns directly from them! (Even though she'd had her suspicions beforehand) And then she was present when Rand came to see the Amyrlin. (even though they didn't directly talk about him being the Dragon)-We get a first hint that Leane is going to go Green later.
-I love Siuan just flat-out saying "I know you can channel."
Way to catch him off guard. And I actually got chills when she told him "Because you are the Dragon Reborn." That's got to be quite a shock to hear that sort of thing and from the Amyrlin Seat herself. Though I find it really frustrating that Rand's already going on so much about how he can't trust any Aes Sedai. :rolleyes I realize he's been led to think that from all the stories he heard growing up and there's certainly truth to the stories of Aes Sedai manipulation... but come on, you can at least trust Moiraine! :facepalm She's saved your life so many times already. It's especially annoying this time around knowing Moiraine and Siuan so much better so I really want him to trust them. :\They really can't win with Nynaeve or Rand. Either they gentle him and prove everything Nynaeve and Rand feared... or they do as they did and let him leave on his own without harming him and Nynaeve and Rand accuse them of plotting something because they didn't gentle him. :rolleyes
-I love Moiraine! :joy She and Nynaeve crack me up.
"If your own use of the Power is not schooled, you will never be able to use it against me."-That's quite daunting that Lan felt he had to tell Rand about Sheathing the Sword before he left.
It's like "Hey, I know you have to leave, but before you go, let me just tell you. You may have to stab yourself at some point."-It's quite scary to think of the Horn of Valere being used for the Shadow. :eek
-Who tried to shoot Rand? Presumably it was the same 'watcher' who seemed to be following him around earlier.
After Liandrin intimidates Amalisa, she goes back into the hall and:
What was this? :scratch Was someone spying on her with the Power or something?
And what is Moiraine keeping from Siuan? :scratch She told her everything about the boys and what they found at the Eye... What does she know about what's going on with the Seanchan that she doesn't want to tell Siuan?
Also, what did Moiraine, Siuan and Verin do in their meeting with Rand?? After he leaves, Siuan says "I cannot make myself like what we just did. It was necessary, but... Did it work, Daughters?" What is she referring to? Did they do something to him with the Power?
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 10-16
As always, I'm annoyed at the strength of the effect it has on Rand, but the interweaving of their story with his memories of what Tam told him is well done.
She's a nice one, all through the series. That encounter with Perrin is good fun.
She did not tell her about meeting the two forsaken. Or at least we don't read about it. She doen't know about the Seanchan yet. - For me, this thought is just the hallmark of her manipulating mindframe. Respect her? Of course. Love? No.
No, nothing with the Power, just psychological manipulation. "We know who you are (better than you know it yourself), but we will let you do as you please, just take care of yourself and don't tell nobody about it."
As always, I'm annoyed at the strength of the effect it has on Rand, but the interweaving of their story with his memories of what Tam told him is well done.
Megana Vallentin
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 10-16
I was wondering if they were trying to convince him they were allies and trusted advisers who would help him but let him make his own decisions, because they want to have a lot of influence over him but knew if they tried to control him flat-out it would backfire and they'd end up with no control over him at all. So yes, manipulation.
I was wondering if they were trying to convince him they were allies and trusted advisers who would help him but let him make his own decisions, because they want to have a lot of influence over him but knew if they tried to control him flat-out it would backfire and they'd end up with no control over him at all. So yes, manipulation.
Imzadi Hopewind
Aes Sedai
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: TGH Chapters 10-16
*nodnods* That what I think too, they tried to do plain simple manipulation. Because they didn't want him to run in wrong directions.
*nodnods* That what I think too, they tried to do plain simple manipulation. Because they didn't want him to run in wrong directions.