So, About the Forsaken...

[Halbert Al'Kintion]

Yes he threw it off relitivly quickly all things considered but no one ever said he wasn't like a master stratagist and whatnot just that he is freaking crazier then all get out and since being made Nae'blis and becoming permently addicted to the TP he has gotten even loonier and everyone agrees on this. And the rule of thumb in a situation like this is the more folk who say a thing the more likely that thing is to be true at least in part. Also something a lotta u folk tend ta ferget is that Ishy is massivily addicted to useing the TP so addicted in fact he has completely abanded the OP and turned exclusivly to useing the TP as is evident by the massive increase in the Saa the Forsaken especially Demandred make a note of on multiple occasions. Now we all know the Tp itself come directly from the essence of the DO therefor if Ishy would turn back to the Light for any reason the loss of the use of the TP itself would almost certainly kill him in some way shape or form or at least destroy what little is left of his mind in the aftermath of what can only be called a cold turkey serious addiction recovery.. Again i repeat I don't think Ishy can turn away from the DO at this point. It is far to risky and nothing the Creater or the forces of the Light could offer him can equal the risk he would take doing so.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

And the rule of thumb in a situation like this is the more folk who say a thing the more likely that thing is to be true at least in part.

Everyone *knew* that Verin wasn't Black Ajah. If Rand was going to win & Ishy saw the logic of flipping, then I think that he would take the small, calculated risk. After all, with his *boss* out of commission he wouldn't have much backlash with which to contend. I think his usage of the TP is more about using the tactical advantage of being able to do stuff with it that cannot be done with the OP rather than being addicted.

Since the connection between Rand & Moridin must be severed (or else I'LL go completely mad), I think they both will *die*. Rand was told by the Finns that to live he must die. In so doing, I think Moridin will have the opportunity to go Light again. In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow." I'd like to see Moridin "reborn" as the next Green Man. I like my long shots.

 

[Halbert Al'Kintion]

Again I don't deny that what you say MiLady Morrighan is possible but again I think the likelyhood of Moridin/Ishy actually turning is small to none. I just think between Ishy's use/addiction to the TP, his obvious madness and his dedication to the Shadow and the DO that his turning away won't hapen. But again I state I could just as easily be wrong.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I think what some of us have argued is that Ishy is the most likely to turn. That doesn't mean it's likely that he will. But given the atrocities all of the other Forsaken have committed for nothing more than pure selfishness, hatred and sadism, I find it even more unlikely that anybody else would have a real change of heart. I can see another Forsaken surrendering, even betraying the DO, but that's not "turning", in the sense of starting to follow the Light. I think all other Forsaken are beyond redemption, and I honestly can't see anyone else sincerely returning to the Light. Ishamael is the only one who could justify his actions with logic and reason, and while he's certainly done his share of evil, he didn't turn for selfish reasons. And that sets him apart from the rest.

 

[Davorian]

Well...I don't know if selfish is the right word to use. Ishamael was certainly aware that as the most powerful channeler in the world barring his equal Lews Therin, that he would be fairly high ranked in the Shadow's forces and, therefore would be highly ranked in the new world order if it existed (Note that he's probably well aware in a way that no one else is that the Dark One truly winning will likely mean that absolute annihilation of everyone and no one will actually get to rule a new world). But it's more that Ishamael doesn't hate the other side the way all the others do, he just wants this damn repetitive game over with.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

That's what I meant. Ishamael didn't turn for purely selfish reasons. He turned because he was convinced that the Shadow would win, and fighting for the light was pointless. Compare that to Semirhage who wanted to hurt people, Lanfear who was jealous of Lews Therin and Ilyena, Demandred and Sammael who were Jealous of Lews Therin's skills, Mesaana who turned because she didn't get a research position, Aginor who turned because he wanted no ethical limits imposed on his experiments ... Those are seriously selfish reasons to turn, only hatred and spite and self-indulgement. Ishamael's reasons were philosophical and, if you look at things from his point of view, the outcome of a logical reasoning.

Like you say, Davorian: Ishamael doesn't seem to hate the other side in the same way the others do.

 

[Ashlyn Sindal]

See, I think that's exactly what makes it really unlikely that Ishamael would turn. When someone chooses a side for selfish reasons, there's always a chance that selfish reasons could cause them to change sides again, but Ishamael's decision is based on solid reasoning. Unless it is absolutely impossible for the Dark One to win, eventually the Light is going to lose and that will be the end of time. The only way I can really see him changing sides is if someone could convince him that playing for the long-term winning side is a bad idea.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

See, I think that's exactly what makes it really unlikely that Ishamael would turn. When someone chooses a side for selfish reasons, there's always a chance that selfish reasons could cause them to change sides again, but Ishamael's decision is based on solid reasoning. Unless it is absolutely impossible for the Dark One to win, eventually the Light is going to lose and that will be the end of time. The only way I can really see him changing sides is if someone could convince him that playing for the long-term winning side is a bad idea.

Well that really depends on the strength of the argument.

Which currently to be honest, is a little weak. Rand is gonna need a little more than "love makes it worthwhile" to convince Elan Morin that fighting a never ending grinding war of attrition a good path.

He's gonna need a plan to end the "cycle" to really turn him back I should think.


The rest of the forsaken went to the dark side because they like the "evil"...... I think they'd fight pretty strongly to keep that way of life. They might surrender to save their life, but they could never "be on the lights side" again the way Ishy could possibly be again.

(assuming he can get past the TP addiction that is of course).

 

[Tazren Talamar]

The rest of the forsaken went to the dark side because they like the "evil"...... I think they'd fight pretty strongly to keep that way of life. They might surrender to save their life, but they could never "be on the lights side" again the way Ishy could possibly be again.

Yes! That's precisely what I mean. If the argumentet presented to Ishamael was strong enough, he could faithfully serve the Light again, hypothetically. None of the others could, for other reasons than pure survival.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Well...you know I have a soft spot for Mierin. Yes, she was crazy obsessed with a man. But jealousy isn't as terrible as the reasons for the others to turn, except for Ishamael. I hope that there's a way for the mind trap to be released & she can at least "pull an Ingtar".

 

[Ashlyn Sindal]

The thing is, as far as we are aware, all of the premises on which Ishamael based his conclusion are true. Unless we've all been really misled about how the struggle between the Light and Dark work, then there is no sound argument to refute his position. That makes it vanishingly unlikely that someone would be able to present him with an argument strong enough to change his position.

As far as the other Forsaken are concerned, the argument that they can't turn back to the Light because they like "evil" things just doesn't hold water based on some of the other characters we've seen in the books. It's been made clear that a person can be a truly horrible person and enjoy making others suffer without being a Darkfriend. A shining example of this would be Sevanna.

 

[Davorian]

See, I've always read the series as moving towards the end of the Wheel in a good way...if it just ended with "and the wheel just keeps spinning and all of this gets repeated over and over again in different permuations", even if we learn the dark one will NEVER win, that seems lame.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

The thing is, as far as we are aware, all of the premises on which Ishamael based his conclusion are true. Unless we've all been really misled about how the struggle between the Light and Dark work, then there is no sound argument to refute his position. That makes it vanishingly unlikely that someone would be able to present him with an argument strong enough to change his position.

In all likelihood that is correct, I don't think Ishy will agree with Rand that the "journey is worth it, even if you fail in the end."

As far as the other Forsaken are concerned, the argument that they can't turn back to the Light because they like "evil" things just doesn't hold water based on some of the other characters we've seen in the books. It's been made clear that a person can be a truly horrible person and enjoy making others suffer without being a Darkfriend. A shining example of this would be Sevanna.

True...... however being a dark friend means you can be free to be as horrible as you like and suffer as many people as you want.

That mindset means you are far more likely to want to stick with it.

It's those kinds of mindsets which end up swearing to the DO in the first place, and even in case of a not being a "darkfriend" per se, I wouldn't call being a "horrible person and enjoying making others suffer" working for the light.

 

[Ashlyn Sindal]

It's those kinds of mindsets which end up swearing to the DO in the first place, and even in case of a not being a "darkfriend" per se, I wouldn't call being a "horrible person and enjoying making others suffer" working for the light.

Certainly those attributes themselves wouldn't be working for the Light, but I can imagine someone inclined that way deciding to, nominally at least, work for the Light if he or she thought it was in his or her best interest to do so. In fact, the only two Forsaken who are in it for selfish reasons that I can't see potentially agreeing to switch sides if they thought it would benefit them to do so are Semirhage and Demandred. But someone like Lanfear or Greandal, for instance? I could see either of them switching sides if they thought they'd get a better deal out of it.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

[quote="Axis m'Troutilas":4geyeh7i]It's those kinds of mindsets which end up swearing to the DO in the first place, and even in case of a not being a "darkfriend" per se, I wouldn't call being a "horrible person and enjoying making others suffer" working for the light.

Certainly those attributes themselves wouldn't be working for the Light, but I can imagine someone inclined that way deciding to, nominally at least, work for the Light if he or she thought it was in his or her best interest to do so. In fact, the only two Forsaken who are in it for selfish reasons that I can't see potentially agreeing to switch sides if they thought it would benefit them to do so are Semirhage and Demandred. But someone like Lanfear or Greandal, for instance? I could see either of them switching sides if they thought they'd get a better deal out of it.[/quote:4geyeh7i]

Yes, but they wouldn't be serving the Light so much as their own interests then, would they? If they just helped defeat the DO to get a pardon, or something, after which Graendal would probably set up a dozen new harems of human toys. Covertly, if need be. And Lanfear would keep obsessing over LTT to the point of vengeful slaughter.

 

[Ashlyn Sindal]

[quote="Ashlyn Sindal":1v36i5vy]Yes, but they wouldn't be serving the Light so much as their own interests then, would they? If they just helped defeat the DO to get a pardon, or something, after which Graendal would probably set up a dozen new harems of human toys. Covertly, if need be. And Lanfear would keep obsessing over LTT to the point of vengeful slaughter.

[/quote:1v36i5vy]

Of course they'd be serving their own interests, just like pretty much everyone else on both sides of the conflict is. That doesn't automatically put them on the side of the Dark.

I mean, RJ talked about how part of him inspiration for the series was reading fantasy epics where people were all invested in The Greater Good and he found it unrealistic, so he wanted to write about characters that acted more human and did things for selfish reasons. In my opinion, he did a really good job of doing exactly that. Pretty much all of the "good guys" are acting out of self-interest.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

[quote="Tazren Talamar":26vhts00][quote="Ashlyn Sindal":26vhts00]Yes, but they wouldn't be serving the Light so much as their own interests then, would they? If they just helped defeat the DO to get a pardon, or something, after which Graendal would probably set up a dozen new harems of human toys. Covertly, if need be. And Lanfear would keep obsessing over LTT to the point of vengeful slaughter.

[/quote:26vhts00]

Of course they'd be serving their own interests, just like pretty much everyone else on both sides of the conflict is. That doesn't automatically put them on the side of the Dark.

I mean, RJ talked about how part of him inspiration for the series was reading fantasy epics where people were all invested in The Greater Good and he found it unrealistic, so he wanted to write about characters that acted more human and did things for selfish reasons. In my opinion, he did a really good job of doing exactly that. Pretty much all of the "good guys" are acting out of self-interest.[/quote:26vhts00]

Yes, they are. But the good guys don't get off on torturing, tormenting and literally twisting the minds of everyone they want. The Forsaken do that. I agree that they might stop serving the Shadow if they thought for sure there was a better deal somewhere. But they wouldn't actively serve the Light, in all sincerity. They won't ever become "good".

 

[Halbert Al'Kintion]

Again as far as Mierin is concerned I believe that if the mindtrap can be released and she can be convinced to abandon her pursuit of LTT, I.E. it was demonstrated to her irrevocably that it's futile, I believe she can be brought back to the light. The main reason I believe this is because again Mierin turned only for jeloues reasons not selfish or based on things such as hatred or self indulagance or inferiority complexs or other such things as that. Again gettin back to Ishy/Moridin yes again I agree his original reason for turning was based on what he feels is solid logic. Not sure I agree with it and the reason I don't is because honestly I do not think either the Light or the Shadow can ever truely win this eternal struggle. Seriously what fun would it be to live in a world ruled entirly by Good or Evil? In that case your truely left with two choices to either become a slobbering moronic follower or start a revolution for the opposeing side in which case this whole thing just starts up again. I truely believe there cannot be Shadow without Light and vice versa. Thereofr there cannot be an agruement made string enough to sway Ishy back to the side of the Light. On top of that there is his severe insanity to consider and his addiction to the Tp to consider as well which either alone would cause his thinking to be, to be nice about it, different then the rest of us both combined plus the reasons he originally turned to begin with really cause me to believe he can't be turned back ever again.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Paragraph breaks dude, that block of text is next to impossible to read.


Lanfear maybe might turn back, although she's seemed to enjoy her fair share of "evil actions" sending people insane in their sleep and so on.

She's not in Semirhages league of course mind you.

 

[Halbert Al'Kintion]

True enough I grant you Semirhage and Lanfear have both enjoyed commiting great acts of evil but their motivations for such were completely different one acts out of hate and one out of jelousy. I truely think that of all the Forsaken left living Lanfear is the most likely to turn to the Light once more