So, About the Forsaken...

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Davorian

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So, of the Forsaken, Balthamel, Be'lal, Rahvin, Semhirage have been balefired, Mesaana is totally incapacitated (maybe if an assassin could get to her she could be reincarnated, but she might be snapped too far). Asmodean and Sammael seem to be dead for good. Aginor might be coming back, although he still managed to get killed a second time, and Egwene saw something that renders that unlikely IIRC. The three remaining women are all being punished in some way, leaving the only Forsaken from the AoL still free and in play as Demandred and Ishamael.

But what I really want to talk about is the psychology of the forsaken and the Last Battle. I'm not entirely convinced they're all going to fight for the Shadow.

Demandred: He joined the shadow because he was always forced to play second fiddle to LTT. He is almost as powerful as LTT, and therefore almost as powerful as Ishamael. He was one of the possible candidates to become Nae'Blis, but then Ishamael, who we should note had already gotten himself killed, was appointed to the position. In other words, the path of his life after release seems to be insulting him the same way he was insulted before. He might well turn again...

Ishamael: Although he's the first of the Forsaken, he seems to only have turned because of a logical argument in his head that the Light would eventually lose. I think his name (Betrayer of Hope) has symbolic significance not only in that he betrayed the world's hope, but that he never had any himself. If he could be convinced that there was a way for the world to move forward, or that there was meaning to it all...

Lanfear is of course an obvious candidate for some sort of Salvation, or just as a trap.
 
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As to Ishameal I doubt theres a chance in hell of his ever being redeemed he is to far into the Shadow for such a thing and he knows he would die if he ever betrayed the DO. On top of which he enjoys the privlages and power that come with being Forsaken. Demandred I do see as a possibility for redemption though not to likely again for the reasons stated above. As to Mairin aka Lanfear i also see her as possibly being redeemed but that redemption is gonna be one long hard twisted road. I am not 100% sure its possible. Plus I think her redemption would have to start with LTT and there previous love affair before LTT found his Illyeana. Moghedian I see being released to also fight the LB for the Shadow under extremely limiuted conditions. The one I worry bout most makin his comeback and doing some serious damage is whats his name that for a while was Rand's prisinor and teacher. Y'all know who I mean. Plus what about new Forsaken rising in the face of this new Shadow War? Anyone who doesn't think thats whats gonna happen raise ur hands!!!! Come on hordes of Trollocs, DreadLords and Forsaken and Gods know what else comin at the forces of the light all equals a new Shadow war to me.
 
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I seriously doubt that Asmo will come back. I cant quote anything from the books, but for some reason I believe he was balefired. Even if he wasn't, I don't think the DO would have him back after his betrayal, albeit forced.

I never thought about the death/resurrection of Mesaana. First thought is that it is possible though also unsure if her scrambled eggs brains would be carried over or not. I am thinking it would because the other reincarnated forsaken all seem to have their prior memories.

As far as betraying the shadow, I am going to go for Ishy. Logic dictated that he turn the first time. If he thinks his chances run better with the Light, he may well turn again. He was a greedy, powerhungry, immortality seeking opportunist and always will be.
 

Vendri al'Varrak

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I really don't think Moridin is going to turn back, he is too steep in the Shadow. I know the old saying "No one is ever too far gone in the Shadow to return to the Light" (or something like that) but for channeler's it is different. Besides, Moridin is quite obviously mad. He was mad as Ishamael in the prologue of The Eye of the World and he is mad now as Moridin. He and Rand are tied and meant to fight at the Last Battle, Moridin himself says this in the books more than once I think.

As for Moridin's logic, it makes a twisted kind of sense. Even if the DO loses in this age, he will just keep trying again and again and again and eventually he will win. Add to that the fact that the DO is known as the Lord of the Grave because he can reincarnate those of his servants that serves him well (unless they have known Balefire) and Moridin practically is already immortal. He has already been brought back once, and now he is Nae'blis. I am sure that he believes that even if he and the DO are defeated in this age that the DO will just bring him back again at the right time. It's not like souls have an expiration date on them.

Also, Moridin isn't as foolish as the other Forsaken. They believe that when the Dark One reigns that they will be given kingdoms and power and immortality. Moridin knows that this "immortality" is only temporary, to keep being brought back into the world of the living until the Dark One wins over the Light, because when this happens the Dark One will shroud the pattern in darkness and the Wheel will stop spinning. Moridin knows this, he also knows it is inevitable. The difference between he and those who fight for the Light is that he has given up on the Light prevailing.
 
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I've always seen Ishamael as the only one remotely likely to turn. He turned for philosophical, intellectual reasons. As mentioned, if he believes that the Light will indeed win, he might turn. If he reaches the conclusion that that is how things must be. I don't think it'll happen, but I think he has the potential to turn within him. The others turned for purely selfish reasons. I don't see them redeeming themselves. They weren't doing what they thought was required; they didn't turn because of the inevitable victory of the Dark One. They wanted power, revenge, the freedom to express their sadistic tendencies ...

I can't see anyone else turning, for anything but fear. I could certainly see Moghedien, for instance, fighting for the Light, if she's offered that or death (or severing). But I don't see her turning to the Light for real. Not in her heart. Because she, like the rest of them, is much too selfish.
 
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Davorian

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Yeah, realistically I think Moridin is the only one likely to turn, I was pondering Demandred, but then again he more seems set up to take control if Moridin turns. I've never thought of Ishamael/Moridin as being incredibly evil, more just an addict to the TP, who turned because he was logical and came to the hopeless conclusion. Note that Moghedien and Cyndane might be forced to fight for the light if Moridin turns since we don't really know how much power TDO exerts over a mindtrap once it's been given to a handler.
 

Morrighan Daghdera

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I'm in the "I don't think Mierin's plea to Rand is a trap" camp. Color me optimistic. If there's any way to be freed from the mind trap, then I think she'll go for Team Light. I also (finally) agree that Moridin could turn if logic were to dictate as such; I just don't see it happening. There is so much balance in these books, I see Moridin as being Rand's counterpoint. I don't see any of the others as being candidates to walk in the Light again.
 
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Love is at least to me a far more powerful incentive then fear or hatred or any of the other reasons any of the Forsaken turned from the Light. As to the possibility of Ishy ever turning back to the Light I honestly doubt it. For 1 he is far to steeped in the Shadow and for 2 that guys so looney he makes insane criminals seem sane. Yes ishy turned away for reasons that seemed justified and logical at the time but not how often in the books he is said to be so mad its ridiculas by pretty much everyone. If anyone turns and I mean truely turns back to the Light I think it will be Mierin/Lanfear/Cyndine. She only went to the Shadow because of a jelious rage fueled by love and I believe love can bring her back. My question I must pose is who do you folks see as possibly becoming the new forsaken?
 
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Davorian

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Well, Taim is either Moridin, a New Forsaken, or as I read on theoryland a while ago: one of the old Chosen who survived in stasis.
 

Aduiavas Ida

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Also, remember that Rand and Moridin/Ishamael is now "linked" in some way. I truly believe that that will have some significance in TG, or I will feel quite lost. That may be another reason for Moridin to turn back, to save his own and Rands life.
 
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I haven't forgotten about Moridins link to Rand at all but what does it mean in the greater scheme of things?
 
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Aduiavas Ida said:
Also, remember that Rand and Moridin/Ishamael is now "linked" in some way. I truly believe that that will have some significance in TG, or I will feel quite lost. That may be another reason for Moridin to turn back, to save his own and Rands life.


If anyone is a candidate for turning back to the Light, its Moridin.

He only turned to the dark in the first place because he decided based upon the nature of the wheel that the dark ones triumph is inevitable. He made a logical decision to ensure his best survival to join up

(Rand almost came to the very same conclusion himself, and if Rand can convince him otherwise. Then Moridin flipping is extremely likely.
 
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But again Axis I come back to Ishy/Moridins madness I get the distinctive feeling that he is so insane by now he couldnt turn back even if he wished to
 
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I dunno,

I've never been terribly convinced Elan Morin was ever insane to be honest.

I know its the "common knowledge", but it rubs me wrong for some odd reason.

Weird of me I know, but I can't shake it for some reason.
 
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But remember the more often something like this is said to be truth especially by those closest to the person in question the more likely it is true my friend and I say Ishy is crazier then a bag fulla Mexican Jumping Beans on a hot grille
 
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Probably, I'm almost certain I'm wrong.

But Ishy spent hundreds of years manipulating the course of history, pretending to be various people over the years.

I'm not saying he's "totally sane", he's clearly got an anger problem at the very least.

But I just can't shake the itchy feeling that he's not as insane as he seems to be making out to be.
 
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I don't know man Ishy seems madder then a wet hen with a fox in the henyard
 
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Davorian

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Ishy seems depressed, addicted and mildly insane. If he's linked with Rand, it's not improbable that those last two have been getting better as Rand has finally found the Light. Honestly, I don't think Moridin will live happily ever after...he'll kill himself killing the Dark One or in some other heroic act.
 
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I'm not saying that what all of you are saying about Ishy isn't possible it certainly is. After all at this point durn near anything is possible. But I'm sorry if I have to continue to disagree with you folks about Ishy. He was nuts before his death and rebirth and as previously stated already addicted to the TP which is known to negitivly affect ones mind and behavior. Now the loon is Nae'Blis and totally and utterly addicted and devoted to the TP and through that to the DO. I really doubt he will ever turn back to the Light. He likes to live and he knows if he betrays the DO not only will he completely lose access to the TP but he will also die quickly and horribly because the DO wob't let one of his top servents betray him and go to the Light at such a critical moment as this.
 
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Oh I agree with you, its almost certain that is true.


Just niggles at the back of my mind for some reason though.

I mean you read a lot of what Ishy says, and he sounds crazy sure, but most of what he says is actually true. A little exaggerated sometimes and overly dramatic, but even in the early days he very rarely lied to Rand.

The part that jumps out at me though, is how quickly he threw off the Ba'alzamon persona when it was clearly no longer working for him. Like a scheme he no longer needed.

Just bugs me.
 
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