Something Demandred said that confused me?

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by smcskim12, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. smcskim12

    smcskim12

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    It was when he was fighting Lan. "Demandred blocked Lan’s attack, but he breathed hoarsely. “Who are you?” Demandred whispered again. “No one of this Age has such skill. Asmodean? No, no. He couldn’t have fought me like this. Lews Therin? Itis you behind that face, isn’t it?”

    So I read this and I paused. First of all, I don't remember ever reading that Asmodean was some incredible blademaster? When we was Rand's captive he was teaching Rand more about things to do with the power but never anything with the sword. Rand become so good with the sword because of Lan and I guess Tam. So I am curious, because we got tidbits about each Forsaken and their skills / personality when they turned to the shadow all throughout the books, why this was never mentioned?

    Furthermore, why would Demandred suspect that Lan was somehow Asmodean? I am fairly certain that all of the Forsaken know who has been killed and so on and so forth. They each had their plans and schemes but always seemed to have eyes and ears about what was happening in the world and certainly what Rand was up to. Secondly, even if Demandred had no idea that he was dead, and not to be returning because of his betrayal, why would he be fighting Demandred in the last battle.
     
  2. Kiranthus Solaron

    Kiranthus Solaron

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    Demandred like all of the forsaken view the 3rd agers as inferior in every which way to themselves. So when Lan faces him he immediately assumes that only someone from his own age would have the skill to match him. First he assumes Asmodean, as he was on team Rand for a bit, but quickly shoots it down because Asmodean was not nearly that good at swordmanship and should be dead (also he uses couldnt instead of cant to show that it was just a quick thought he shoots down). Then he assumes its LTT. That little bit of consufion probably puts him just off balance enough.
     
  3. Baph Na'tiel

    Baph Na'tiel

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    I also doubt that Demandred knew or cared about Asmodean being killed. Since Demandred had been apparently spending most of his time hanging out in Shara, I'd bet he was only cursorily aware of Asmodean's death. That, along with Kiranthus' explaination of Forsaken's opinion of 3rd agers, would explain why Demandred would quickly think of Asmodean, him being someone from the Age of Legends who Demandred could still think is alive.
     
  4. Halan Leion

    Halan Leion

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    That got me as well, my initial reaction was WTF? :scratch
     
  5. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    I think it's quite possible that Asmodean was simply a very solid swordsman, but not close to Demandred, which is why he discarded the idea immediately. I don't think the would've jumped straight to Asmodean if Asmodean hadn't had any skills in that area at all. Feels like Sammael or somebody else of the Forsaken, who seem much more like fighters, would've been a better spontaneous guess otherwise.
     
  6. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    I don't think we ever saw anything to suggest Asmodean had a talent as a swordsman. But Demandred knew that Asmodean was dead. the Dark One told him.
     
  7. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    well he sort of did, he wasn't really clear about it to be honest.

    he specifically says Rahvin is dead, but his comment about Asmodean.............. it's a bit waffly. Dem could have interpreted that to mean he's just been kicked out of the chosen.

     
  8. Jodea Kegan

    Jodea Kegan Aes Sedai

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    Frankly, everything Demandred said confused me. He was the worst thing about this book.
     
  9. Laurelin Allendra

    Laurelin Allendra

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    That was my assumption, as well - the rest of the Chosen were, from Demandred's perspective, solidly accounted for, so Asmodean was the one that came to mind first in his moment of shock at fighting someone so skilled. Obviously this was shot down quickly, but this line of thought makes sense considering the circumstances.

    I agree that he wasn't anything great. There was so much buildup to the inevitable confrontation with Demandred that I was a bit disappointed with how it ended up. He turned out totally consumed with his desire to beat LTT that it negated any other traits that he had and made him very one-dimensional. I can see why it happened that way, and I understand BS/RJ's reasoning behind it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it!
     
  10. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    We never saw anything to indicate that he couldn't have been a skilled swordsman. Before the War of Shadow, fencing was just a sport. Basically everything we know about Asmodean is that he was a musician, joined the Shadow for that sake, and severed his own mother.
     
  11. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    We also know that he was basically lazy, and that despite being a child prodigy and gaining the third name, he never fulfilled the early promise. It seems unlikely that he would have put in the time and effort to become an expert swordsman.
     
  12. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    He wouldn't have to have been an expert, just "good". I think Demandred would consider just a "good" swordsman from the AoL as better than most from the third age. You can be good without being a renowned master.
     
  13. Taika Vinh

    Taika Vinh Aes Sedai

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    This is what confuses me. Why does Demandred expect a good swordsman from his age to be better than a good swordsman would be "now"? The Forsaken are much more advanced channelers than people "now", so I always assumed their fighting would mostly have been with the Powers, and tactical maneuvering. Plus that they lived most of their lives during peaceful times, and then got sealed in the Bore, so the practice time would have been just the War of the Shadow (plus possible hobby fencing, like you said). Is it just because Demandred and most of the other Forsaken are arrogant, and assume they're better than the channelers "today" in all skills, not just with channeling?
     
  14. Laurelin Allendra

    Laurelin Allendra

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    I think that's exactly what it is - precisely because they are (assumed to be) better channelers than those of the Third Age, in his arrogance Demandred relates that to being better in EVERY aspect, not just in skill with the Power.

    (Edit) He doesn't just do it with Lan - he struggles with Mat, too, he refuses to accept that someone from the Third Age is able to hold their own when leading in battle against him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  15. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    That also seemed pretty silly, as they hadn't had that much experience of war. I think there may have been some before the actual War of the Shadow, but not enough so that Demandred would have far more experience than anyone from the third age.
     
  16. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Remember The Collapse from the time of the drilling of the bore to the break out of the War of Power was 100-110 years, and then the War itself was ten years.

    Long time for them to take up swordplay, and turn it into a bloodsport, and master it. And not just hobby fencing, remember fights to the death became common place in the 50 years leading up to the war.

    At all this time in peak physical condition, in a channeler slowed body, with access to healing for washing away tiredness and injuries.

    Given enough talent, the ability they could have picked up in decades of practice is mind boggling. Lan must be something pretty special to be able to take him down, even considering that Demandred had had a long day and fought multiple duels already.

    Quite a few of the Forsaken were "blademasters", Be'lal, Sammael, even LTT.
     
  17. Kaldam Luciere

    Kaldam Luciere Watson Gaidin Gaidin

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    Lan certainly wouldn't have bested Sammael. He was an acknowleged world champion in swordplay and probably the best of all of them.
     
  18. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Agreed.

    Rand was lucky he didn't try to take it blade to blade with Sammael, that wouldn't have ended as well as most of his other fights I suspect.
     
  19. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Demandred, like a few of the Forsaken, was already "old" (compared even to modern Aes Sedai), since he was over 300 years. It's no wonder he sees himself as superior to anyone from this age. Even though most of that experience came from a time of peace, it's a whole lot of experience.
     
  20. Taika Vinh

    Taika Vinh Aes Sedai

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    Yeah, I always forget how long time it was from the bore to the sealing of it... So it would be much more time to practice for them than Lan or any other contemporary blademaster. I still wonder at the necessity of it for the AoL folks, though. Why would they need to be so good at fighting with a sword? Being a master channeler seems enough, and more practical to me. Just for the fun of it? Or was there some real reason? Or just because there should be swordplay in fantasy books? :p