Rafe Judkins and Sara Nakamura Q&A

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Hi,
Rafe (the showrunner) and Sara (the show lore expert) did Q&A in Twitter to celebrate the end of WGA strike:

Rafe's answers: https://pastebin.com/mTTNWLhC

Q: Will we find out why Loial survived?

A: We all have scars we bear from COVID. Loial has one applied right to his chest whenever he shoots without a shirt.

Q: what episode did you KNOW would land well with fans, and what episode did you think might push a few buttons or test a few people?

A: I thought 206 would land well even though it’s mostly just one paragraph expanded out, and I think 207 will push some buttons as it has some of the most iconic scenes from the books mixed with some storytelling required for the show version of the story.

Q: Does Josha do facial acting exercises in the mirror? Because damn. He’s so good.

A: I know he did with the prosthetics…

Q: Congratulations! Everyone I’ve spoken to think the writing in S2 is stronger and gives the actors more chance to shine. I’d love to know what you and the writers learned from the experience of doing season 1 that changed how you approached writing seasons 2 and 3 of #WheelOfTime.

A: It’s most of the same writers for both seasons, but we were given freedom to have longer episodes in season 2 which I think really makes a huge difference to our ability to tell the story from an emotional character driven POV

Q: What is the one thing you've been dying to talk about or refer to that you've not been able to while all this has been going on?

A: More than anything to praise the work of our amazing writers and actors. Even just this last week, both Rammy Park and Maddy Madden delivered at such unbelievably high levels. The show couldn’t be what it is without them

Q: I just wonder if you still continued to push the boundaries for the scope as the story progress?

A: I’ve always said that people grew up with the books. That the tone and storytelling and emotions of the first book progress and mature until you reach the incredible depths of the final books. I hope the show is the same. S3 is even more sophisticated and rich and deep than S2

Q: Does Barthanes REALLY make the best sandwiches? Asking for a darkf- erm… friend.

A: Only Rosamund knows

Q: Is the One Power still two distinct separate halves (Saidar/Saidin) that work together to balance the pattern and turn the wheel itself? Will this be explained in the show with the same terminology as the books?

A: We are trying to explain the one power as it’s emotionally relevant to the characters and go deeper visually simultaneous to that explanation. The two halves of the one power get more time the deeper the series goes

Q: What part of the 6 episodes that we have already seen have you the most excitement or interest in how it will link into future plot lines from the books due to changes in the show?

A: Anvaere

Q: Will Moridin be In the show? I know. The Ishamael fella is more sane, but Moridin was a completely different character that presented a different set of challenges to the good guys?

A: We wove a lot of Moridin and his philosophy into Ishamael this season

Q: Lanfear and Ishy are positively delicious this season. Which other/next Chosen are you most looking forward to fleshing out?

A: I love them all equally except for my favorite

Q: When will S4 be approved by Amazon?

A: Ask the Bez! I'm ready whenever :)

Q: who is your favorite character from season 2 and why is Hopper the bestest of boys

A: Don’t even. Hoppers performance in 208 is best performance by an animal. Makes me so happy we had real animals instead of CG

Q: what’s your favourite moiraine scene from s2 and why?

A: My favorite is in 208. But I love the one in 206 in the attic with Anvaere. Her wish to be someone other than who she had to be. She and Rand share a lot in the destiny they were burdened with, and her heroism in pursuing it is really inspiring I think

Q: Are we introducing some fallibility to Min’s visions in comparison with the books?

A: No. Only in her interpretations

Q: You said Egwene-Renna was your favorite 2-person scene. What was the approach to creating that whole interaction? How did you & the writers decide to structure it all around that one paragraph in TGH where Egwene talks about the pitcher?

A: I just read that paragraph prepping for S2 and it felt like an entire story. It was one of the most impactful stories to me when I first read the books and I wanted to figure out how best to do it in this medium

Q: LOVING S2 so far... but definitely missing WOT Origins... were they an exclusive S1 thing or might they come back at some point?

A: I miss them too!!

Q: When you saw all of the new actors in their first scenes as fan-fave characters—we’re talking Selene, Elyas, Verin, Elayne, Mat, Aviendha, Lanfear—how did it feel? Any favorite moments/scenes with the newbies?

A: Mat has a scene in 208 that brings happy tears to my eyes every time

Q: Obviously Liandrin’s excellent character and story arc for the show has been expanded from the book. Is she also being written as an amalgamation of any other book characters or does she stand alone for the show?

A: Liandrin stands alone

Q: this is important for me personally: are the Finn in or out?

A: Which Finn are in?

Q: Rafe, are you going to make us fall in love with the messiest queen of all, Elaida aka Messaida?

A: I’ve fallen in love with her.

Q: Loving the hell out of this season. 206 hit like a ton of bricks. Can't wait to see what comes next. And now that I've laid some praise on could you do me a solid and just kinda write Ryma free? And maybe let my boys Rand and Mat bro out for a bit in peace? Thanks <3

A: My biggest sadness of S2 is that we couldn’t do the boys on the Hunt for The Horn. I love those three together

Q: It's obvious the S2 production quality is higher than S1. Was that a result of not being handcuffed by COVID restrictions, criticism, or both?

A: S2 shot before S1 aired. Our teams are just incredible

Q: Do you feel like this season put you back on track to where you thought you'd be (and where you wanted to take the story) before COVID and all the interruptions?

A: Yeah. And also beyond Covid. We knew right up front we’d have to do books 2 and 3 combined, because they have the same arc. So the end of 108 required us to throw a bunch of juggling balls up in the air and we need to very carefully land them all in their correct place by end of 208. So that all the characters have had the necessary experiences they need to do the story of Book 4. I think we achieve that, even including some of the unexpected swerves and gusts of wind we had to tackle.

Q: How did it feel to drop Ji’e’toh, Car’a’carn and Tel’aran’rhiod all in one episode?

A: Felt even better that random watchers were able to follow them seamlessly haha

Q: Is there a scene in this week’s episode that you know fans will love? Any hint for your favourite scene in this episode?

A: Cat crosses the courtyard. Finally

Q: How confident are you the show will become the major hit it deserves to be and get the EIGHT seasons arc you envisioned?

A: The worlds very difficult right now and we’ve had to be the one of the only shows to premiere without actor publicity. It’s incredibly damaging to viewership numbers to not have Rosamund Daniel and the others out there, so I anticipate we will need to build and build this season

Q: Mat calls Min, “Mini-Min-Min” in episode 6. Was that written in the script or is that something Dónal added? Love all the nicknames (Ishy! Two rivers!)

A: That’s 100% Dónal and 100% gold

Sara's answers: https://pastebin.com/ZcccZyxq

Q: What was the reasoning behind the decision to still Moiraine? Never happened to her in the books - most of us know who it happens to. I’ll be curious to see if Moiraine’s storyline follows that of our lovable fisherlady or if this is just an original arc for Moiraine.

A: WAFO

Q: I noticed storylines are being interchanged between characters - makes sense, given the massive list of characters in WoT! Aviendha’s intro was very reminiscent of the scene in Book 3 when Perrin releases Gaul from his cage. Does this mean we won’t be seeing Gaul as a character?

A: Not necessarily

Q: Will all Aiel have Captain American level of power/combat skills as Aviendha has been shown to have?

A: Lol. She doesn’t need a fancy shield with kinetic absorbent capabilities. Aviendha IS the force & energy itself ;)

Q: Have we seen Lanfear’s dream interference more than has been explicitly shown? #TwitterOfTime #TheWheelOfTime #WoTSeason2

A: WAFO

Q: Xelia and Madeleine did an incredible job!!! Did the actors get a really big hug after the scenes in episode 6?

A: Absolutely, yes. I give the best mama hugs too so we all held space for them to feel all of the things and I just held & hugged (Maddie) super tight to reinforce her xoxo

Q: I wanna know when will Galad show up

A: shrug emoji

Q: What do you think of Liandrin? Where will her story go next? Will she receive the redemption arch, or will she go deeper into the darkness and never find her way to the light again?

A: One of the most conflicting aspects of this season for me is that I feel so much empathy for Liandrin! Speculate away as to her arch!! Looking forward to hearing the theories!!

Q: I'd like to ask how Ryma, Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah was able to use the power as a weapon when she wasn't in the "last desperate defense of her life"? i.e. what did she convince herself?

also: Why was "against shadowspawn" left out of the third oath?

A: Wasn’t she? The mere existence of the a’dam is a threat to her life for Ryma. She’d planned to have Basan kill her rather than allowing herself to be collared. I believe she felt her life threatened at every moment she was in Falme. The 3 Oaths are subjective to the individual

Q: - what are the rules for sensing/seeing channelers/the power?

does the camera operate from specific POVs along those rules?

was the war of power still a thing?

do y’all intend for certain things to be “ta’veren effects?”

what are the Rings ishy etc wear?

A: Re: Channeling - we’ve had to make some changes fundamentally to the mechanics of the OP, in the case of women sensing/seeing etc we’re saying that if a woman is embracing other channelers can sense the power & strength but they can’t if a channeler is not actively embracing. We’re saying the ability to sense a channeler who is not active is a Talent with a capital T. Logain has this Talent & could see Rand by way of an aura around him (the size/brightness was a creative decision I wasn’t in on so I can’t speak to the specifics on that one). We are not currently doing pov perspective in regards to the weaves being visible etc as getting the right coverage for scenes is already challenging with the effects we do so it’s an added layer that isn’t top of the “I want, I need” lists ;). Yes the WoP is still a thing..I don’t know if we’ll get to “see” it as it happens offscreen in the books :) as our characters learn about the world & forces within it hopefully we’ll have opportunities to organically integrate them without it being too expositionie..

Q: What is the hardest 'battle' you had to fight in the writers room as book expert this season?

A: We can talk about battles after the season ends (maybe) but the biggest challenge was introducing the Seanchan AND the Aiel to the team, working through the big notable things about their cultures as well as the nuances of each & providing as much historical context as possible

Q: Ok here’s my biggest question: WHOMST told Fares Fares to make Ishy so homoerotic in his scenes with the boys?? I need to thank them. He has been SO MUCH FUN to watch this season. And thank whoever wrote “Ishy, dear,” we LOVED that fan service.

A: I believe in my soul that he just lives in that space and we all exist within it..

Q: Why is Avi like 5' 4"?

A: Uhh she’s 5’10 & nearly 6’ in boots but when standing next to Ragga who is 6’3 in boots and Marcus who is over 6’6 in boots, I guess optics are at play? I guess? You can cast a net for “tall” when casting but I’d rather have performance over aesthetics. Thankfully we get both [update: View: https://i.imgur.com/MvKgLdK.png
]

Q: RJ previously said stilling severs the bond. So why is Lan only masked not cut off? Why obfuscate so much of still vs shield? Surely Mo would know difference. She writes stilled on the paper. Are you leading us that she might just be shielded?

A: Actually there isn’t a ton of information on stilled channelers known the the Tower. Most Aes Sedai are too uncomfortable studying the effects. As a result Mo is coping with her situation as best as she can.



(Answers copied from reddit)
 
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Megana Vallentin

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I couldn't get the link for Sara to work but the reddit link was good for it. Thank you for sharing these, so much good info!

Q: what episode did you KNOW would land well with fans, and what episode did you think might push a few buttons or test a few people?

A: I thought 206 would land well even though it’s mostly just one paragraph expanded out, and I think 207 will push some buttons as it has some of the most iconic scenes from the books mixed with some storytelling required for the show version of the story.
(emphasis mine)

Ohhhh boy I am so hype!

Mat has a scene in 208 that brings happy tears to my eyes every time
So I'm going to be a sobbing puddle.

Q: Is there a scene in this week’s episode that you know fans will love? Any hint for your favourite scene in this episode?

A: Cat crosses the courtyard. Finally
:yes:

Re: Channeling - we’ve had to make some changes fundamentally to the mechanics of the OP, in the case of women sensing/seeing etc we’re saying that if a woman is embracing other channelers can sense the power & strength but they can’t if a channeler is not actively embracing. We’re saying the ability to sense a channeler who is not active is a Talent with a capital T. Logain has this Talent & could see Rand by way of an aura around him (the size/brightness was a creative decision I wasn’t in on so I can’t speak to the specifics on that one).

Oh this is fascinating!
 
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Apparently Rafe would make an excellent politician by the amount of non-answers or deflections he gave to those questions.
 

Morrighan Daghdera

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Thank you for the links.

Mat has a scene in 208 that brings happy tears to my eyes every time

I really hope I start enjoying Mat in the next episode. I’m struggling with Rafe’s interpretation more than Brandon’s. :laugh:
 
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Rafe Judkins gave interview with Decider before the Finale

I’m excited that the whole world is now as in love with Lanfear as the writers’ room of The Wheel of Time has been for the last few years since we started working on her,” Judkins said with an enthusiastic laugh. (Maybe even a cackle?) “She’s such an incredible character in the books.”

“I do think that Lanfear and Ishamael, we really tried to infuse the characters with a lot of what you learn about them from the end of the books right at the beginning so that their characters feel complete

You know, Rand only gets these kind of bare glimpses of them in the early books and you as a reader aren’t able to fully understand how complex and how real these people are and that’s what makes them interesting to us as writers,” Judkins said. “They’re not just capital ‘E’ Evil. Like they’re doing what they do for a reason and they’re extremely human faces of evil in The Wheel of Time.

“And, you know, so really infusing both Ishamael and Lanfear with the most human aspects of their characters that you realize by the end of the book series right in the beginning was really important to us.

As Moiraine says, she chooses her words very carefully. So who did “order” Verin to take Rand’s shield?
Was it one of Moiraine’s allies? Or could it be Lanfear?

It’s supposed to be a mystery,” Judkins said, choosing his own words carefully. “But she says it was an order. So someone gave it to her.”

When Decider suggested Lanfear, Judkins demurred. “But, yeah, I leave it up to the fan theories of the world.”

“But [Verin], you know, she does not lie when she comes in that room.”


on Instagram/facebook

What was the biggest risk you took in Season 2?

"We shot in Dakhla, Morocco, where no one had shot a TV show or movie before, to pick up a lot of beach scenes in Episode 8. But I think the reward is huge because you really feel those locations on the show. "

What new character were you most excited to introduce this season?

"I can't decide between Elayne, Aviendha, and Verin, they're all incredible."

Are there any Easter eggs the fans haven't picked up on yet?

"There's an incredibly important weave in Episode 7 that allows channelers to move distances and if you pay attention the nod is there."

What's your favorite costume?

"If I were to go as someone for Halloween, it would probably be High Lady Suroth."

What's the wolf's name that plays Hopper?

"Ka Lapinka. She does something incredibly impressive in Episode 8 that is not CGI."

What was the outstanding moment of the season for you as a WoT fan?

"I can't say because it would be a spoiler, but I think there's a couple that are pretty outstanding."

What are you most excited for fans to see in the finale?

"Without spoilers, a certain moment with Mat Cauthon and a musical instrument."
 
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Another interview with Rafe by ScreeRant

Rafe Judkins: It was a complete rewrite of the entire season. We always wanted to tell the story in season 2 of, “Mat is a hero who doesn't think he's a hero,” and I would have loved to tell the story of the three boys on the hunt for the Horn of Valere, but we didn't get to tell that story. In TV, you can never be apologetic about the story you're telling. so [since] we couldn't do that story, we wanted to lean in fully to the story of the five of the Emond’s Field Five being separate for the first time, [with] each of them on their own path.

Screen Rant: Does that mean Rand making his choice at the end of season 1 was building toward keeping them apart as a result of Mat?
Rafe Judkins: Yeah. That was a big part of it; committing to this idea of all of them being separate was something we needed to do, and so we did, and I think we told really effective storylines of each of them on their own.
 
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And after the last episode with nerdist:
https://nerdist.com/article/wheel-o...ns-interview-forsaken-dragon-reborn-prophecy/

Nerdist: We have so much to discuss. But first, let’s talk about the rings we see Lanfear, Ishamael, Lews Therin, and more wear. What can you say about those?

Rafe Judkins
: We did want to give this hint of the idea that these people used to be Aes Sedai, too. They had their own ring. It’s not something from the books. But it’s something that is just hopefully a subtle thing the audience can pick up on. All of them were the same once. They were all Aes Sedai. They left to join the Dark One. We like things that push you back in the direction of thinking of the better times of Ishamael, Lanfear, and Lews Therin.


Speaking of Lanfear and Ishamael! It seems like the series is focusing on eight Forsaken rather than the 13 in the books. We saw eight statues on Stepin’s altar in season one, we see six seals in Ishamael’s room. Why only eight?

Judkins
: A lot of times, you’ll see us take the 13 and make it eight because 13 is such a repeated number in The Wheel of Time series. A lot of times, we’re taking it and making it eight just because it’s simpler to produce eight clans of Aiel. It’s easier than 13. Eight Forsaken could be easier than 13 Forsaken. But I will neither confirm nor deny that there are eight Forsaken.

A real Aes Sedai answer. Let’s jump ahead towards the end of the episode. Egwene kills Renna, and it’s a huge moment for her. Tell me about taking her down this path of revenge.

Judkins
: In the books, Nynaeve is there at the final moment with Egwene and Renna. For the room, we started to think about what if Nynaeve wasn’t there. We’re deep enough into the show. We need to start to show the audience who these characters are on their way to becoming. Egwene is someone who is, throughout the book series, able to make incredibly tough decisions that have incredibly severe consequences. Starting to show that here was important for us in the overall storytelling of that character. We felt like if Nynaeve wasn’t there, Egwene might do something different than if she was. This is our version of it and something that hopefully lets the audience start to really understand who Egwene will eventually become in the series.

And Rand… there’s so much to dig into, but I want to ask about his confrontation with Turak. Instead of engaging in a swordfight with a blademaster, he uses the One Power against Turak. How did you develop this scene?

Judkins
: For us, we haven’t really told the story of Rand and Lan training together yet. It is coming. But we hadn’t told it yet. But we still needed to pull off this Rand/Turak confrontation. I think it’s just one of those scenes that’s etched into your mind from the second book that we had to do.

What we tried to do is combine it with a scene in the third book with Rand where he kills all these men who are attacking him and they all fall to their knees with the One Power. It’s a very disturbing, unsettling scene in book three that puts a question mark in your mind of what path Rand is headed on and gives the audience its first real glimpse of the amount of power he wields, which I think is really important. That’s what we were trying to do with that scene. We wanted to deliver the iconic scene from the books. But Rand hasn’t had that storyline with Lan yet, so this is a way we could bring it to the show.

Throughout the season, people have talked about the prophecy of the Dragon Reborn proclaiming himself in Falme. Ultimately, Moiraine helps make it happen. How do you view the role of prophecy and how it can be deterministic?

Judkins
: One of the big things in the books is this idea of destiny and what it means and how much of it is what the Pattern has woven for you and how much of it is you weaving through the Pattern. Moiraine and Rand are obviously the two characters where that comes most to a head in their character arc. We wanted to give the two of them a really definitive moment at the end of this season that tackled that thematically and, I think, also have this glorious scene of Moiraine channeling again after a season without it.

We combine that together to make this banner moment that should feel really heroic and ecstatic. But also, it’s not Rand’s choice. It’s Moiraine’s choice. That sets them up very well for the storyline that they have moving forward in the books. I think it’s a really important moment for those two characters in the relationship they’re going to be building moving forward.



tvinsider interview:
Oh man, what a great season.

Rafe Judkins:
Oh, thank you. No, we love it.

There was just no stopping. And I’m still not a full book reader, but you got to synthesize a bunch of stuff from different books to really push this story forward, right?

Oh, yeah. The big challenge of Season 2 was figuring out how to combine the key moments from books two and three (The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn), using mostly the spine of book two to really punch home for the audience. And the finale is fun. We get to give all of these iconic moments from the books, and we just try to infuse them with as much emotional content for the characters as we can, so that you really feel like you’re there in Falme with them and feeling what they’re feeling. It’s fun to get to make TV like this.


I’m not going to run any spoilers, but there is a moment at the end at the top of the tower where I swear…absolute chills. I think fans have been waiting for this, and to see Rand and who falls in behind him, it’s like “This is our story now.”

We really wanted the audience to connect to those [characters] and their connection to each other. By separating them for the whole season, it could really build to this moment when they finally come together where you’re just like, “All I want is you all together.” And that’s what you have to feel about those five the whole way through the series. So hopefully we got to achieve that in Season 2.


Also, LOVE Elayne. Oh, My. God.

Ya gotta have Elayne! [Laughs]

And then you give us a perfectly framed shot of her that feels like it’s telling us something.

That was really the signal to the audience. Hopefully you’ve already liked her this season, but pay attention. This is the last member of this core group.

Daniel Henney hinted during an interview way before the SAG strike that the Moiraine-Lan journey wouldn’t get back together immediately, but the way they earned that reunion was gorgeous.

Oh, yeah. I love that scene. It was on the most remote place that we’ve ever shot on the show in Dakhla, on this beach. No one’s ever shot there before. You can only be there during three hours, once a month for the tide, like it was insane. [Laughs] But it was also one of the most special days of filming I’ve ever had, with the two of them doing that scene.

The previous episode with the smirk, just Daniel’s smirk? I was like, “Oh, yeah, it’s on.”


He can speak volumes with the smirk! [Laughs]

There is a massive moment for Mat that I had to look up and WOW.

That is one of the moments we just worked and worked and worked for literally years to be like, “OK, how can we pull this off? How can we do this? How can we do this justice?” We really put everything we had into it for the audience, because when you read that in the books, really it was one of the things that made people forever A Wheel of Time fans. And so we had to figure out a way to pull that off.

And you achieved a potent rehabilitation of Mat.

Mat is this big character through the whole series. He is the hero that doesn’t believe he’s a hero and we need the audience to know that that’s the core of him by the end of this season. And so hopefully you come away from that [moment] understanding Mat in a more fundamental way than you ever have.

So much fun. And of course, we need to discuss the Seanchan stuff, first because they were absolutely terrifying, and secondly, because their costumes were spectacular.

Oh, Sharon Gilham and Davina Lamont, who do the costumes and hair-and-makeup, just ate it up and down with the Seanchan. It’s incredible because when we started it, I was like, “This is one of the most different and special things in the Wheel of Time books. It’s one of those things that, even now 30 years later, there aren’t characters like the Seanchan in any other fantasy book. We have to make them so unique and so interesting on screen that it matches up with what they are in the books.” And that is a hard brief. You know, “Can you just make them so incredible that people have never seen anything like it?” And they achieved it! They’re really, really, really amazing.

Absolutely. There’s the aquatic lines, the military looks, and sort of like a darkly fetishist kind of vibe.

And they got the insect stuff from the books in there! They were like, “Oh…?” but they did it. You can see that beetle hump on their back.

So you have them as really the driving Big Bad, but then White Cloaks get back into the game and remind us that they’re also awful.

[Laughs] A lot of bad guys! We have the Forsaken, Seanchan, Liandrin [Kate Fleetwood], the White Cloaks.

I’m glad you mention Liandrin. Because, no spoilers, but she isn’t even a factor in the finale, which means she’s off somewhere else.

Yeah, she’s off somewhere that you’ll see in Season 3 in, I think, a very exciting way.

You really got to develop her as a true villain. I did not expect the Black Ajah to be revealed this early into this story. I also didn’t expect to be so moved by her backstory — you humanized her in a way we can sympathize with her a little bit, to feel like maybe she’s trapped in a deal that she regretted from the get-go.

When you have Kate Fleetwood, you’ve got to give her every scene you can give her. She’s so incredible. And it’s really important to us on the show that you understand the human side of all of the so-called “bad,” that you really see that they have reasons for doing what they’re doing, and that maybe you could even agree with them. Because if the big concern is whether any of our characters ever swear to the shadow, you have to see that there’s something in the shadow worth swearing to. So that’s what we’re always trying to do. And Kate’s such an incredible actor that to be able to do that with Liandrin, it really sets her up, hopefully, well, for…let’s say she plays a massive role in what happens next in the books. And so hopefully we’ve laid the groundwork for that for her.

The show really has made me such a fan of this WoT world that I’m constantly looking things up. I’m constantly verifying connections, going to the books. And I do know you have made a very big shift in the story with Egwene and Renna.

We did.

And how do you feel fans are going to feel about that?

I think that they’ll hopefully feel feelings about it because it is a change from what’s in the books. But what we are trying to do is give glimpses here at the end of Season 2 of who these characters are, long-term — that Mat is the hero who doesn’t believe he’s a hero, that you see Egwene and know she’s the person who can make the hard choices. She’s the one who has to make the darkest choices for the most correct reasons as the books go on and on. And so having this moment with Renna, I think, is really important for that.

I think that was part of the fun of the season, watching these characters grow up and own their s**t. Because Moiraine in Season 1 was really there holding all of their hands. This time, they were literally on their own. And every member of the ensemble seems to have brought their A-games. They all killed it.

That was really important to us because while the show has been very centered on Moiraine, the ultimate story of the books is about these five and who they really are. So we wanted, by the end of Season 2, for you to come away from this finale and look at each of those five and know who they are, what the core of their character is, and who they’re going to eventually become in the books. Having that separation at the beginning of the season and then that moment where they’ll all come back together at the end hopefully gives the audience that good feeling you get in the books when the characters come back together.

You introduce someone at the very end of the episode…

Damian, [they] are going to be your new obsession in Season 3, I promise.

They seem a little deranged.

More than a little deranged. [Laughs]

So excited. Can you tell me a location that we’ll be seeing more of?

I can tell you that you should get ready for the desert of the Aiel Waste. The cast is going to be really, really, really hot for the next few months.
 
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Megana Vallentin

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I love that every time Rafe does one of these interviews, he really validates some of the things I'd been thinking about myself. In this case, Egwene saving herself and Rand's "fight" with Turak, among other things. Thank you for sharing them here!
 
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Another interview with Rafe with EW (original link here)

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: In addition to being the showrunner, you're also the co-writer on the season 2 finale. What's the difference for you between leading the room throughout the season and actually being in the writer's seat for such a big episode?

RAFE JUDKINS:
Yeah, I mean, I love writing. That's why I got into this gig and I love all the pieces that I get to do as a showrunner, but I love to write scenes. I love to just be alone with a computer working on a script. And so it was great to get to do that with this finale and make sure that I could tie together all of the pieces that we've been trying to build toward all season. We have a complicated job in terms of adapting two books into one season and pulling in certain things from later in the books, but also holding other things for later in the show. We've got a complicated juggling act going on right now. Our job by the end of season 2 was making sure that when you see those five characters up on the tower at the end, you understand who each of them are and what the core crux of their character is. You may have favorites and lesser favorites amongst those five, but you know who they are and you know what they stand for.


Totally. And not only are you combining books two and three, but you're also bringing stuff in from the first book since we didn't really touch on Perrin's wolf stuff in the first season and that had to come in here too — and obviously that plays a big role in the finale.

Yeah, I'm always viewing my job as adapting the entire series of Wheel of Time, not just each book individually. Because the series is so massive — it fills my whole wall behind me — we have to think of it holistically. Especially in these early stages, we really have to set up correctly what people need to understand because the books start to go into storylines that more cleanly adapt to television the later we go on as well.


When we talked about season 1, you mentioned that the first book, The Eye of the World, is very different from the rest of the series. It starts out by seeming like a standard fantasy quest, but then at the end of that story it becomes clear that The Wheel of Time has only just begun. What was fun about diving deeper into Robert Jordan's world in season 2?

I think that's one of the best things about The Wheel of Time is the deeper you get into it, the more interesting things happen, the more unique cultures you meet, the more unusual characters and conflicts that still feel so fresh even decades later. I think the books really do that. When you read them, you feel like you grow up with them, you feel like they become more sophisticated and deep. I hope the show does the same, so that by the time you get to season 3, you're just rattling off things about the One Power and the Black Ajah. You just become fluent in the world of Wheel of Time the deeper you get into it.


Speaking of the unique cultures of Wheel of Time, the Seanchan are such a big element of season 2. What was fun about bringing them to the screen, and also making them feel so dangerous? One of the reasons this finale feels so triumphant is that there were several episodes this season where it felt like the Seanchan were just steamrolling everything. In season 1 it's like, "There are troll soldiers, there's a Dark Lord and his minions, I know how this goes." But with the Seanchan you just feel like, "Wait, I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen anything like this before."

One of the things that really excited me about taking on this adaptation was that memory of getting to the second book and meeting the Seanchan. I remember getting there when I was younger and feeling like, "I don't know where this story is going, and that makes me excited!" That makes you lean in, and I feel like we had to achieve that in the show too. Everyone worked so hard across every department, from the writers to the costumes to the dialect team to the production design to make sure that the Seanchan really come in and just absolutely sideswipe you and drive every story in a direction that you never saw coming. I think for the show to really work, we needed the Seanchan to work because it could give that audience the feeling of, "I don't know what's going to happen next in this show and I need to watch to find out."


In particular, their threat feels so real because they really beat down Egwene (Madeleine Madden). So her breaking free and working together with everyone to defeat the Seanchan in this finale feels so exciting and triumphant because it really did seem like they were walking away with it for a little bit there.

We really wanted her personal journey this season to feel impossible to get out of. As a logical person, you're putting yourself in her mind and you're like, "There is no way out. We cannot escape from this." She feels like our sort of representation for the Seanchan writ large: How do our leads get out of this? And I feel like the best finales that any movie or TV show have are something where you as the audience feel like your lead is up against impossible odds and you don't know how they can overcome them. And then when they do, it's surprising and amazing. The Seanchan really give us that story, where it's really satisfying for the audience to follow Egwene on that journey and then see all of our characters overcoming the Seanchan in a similar way.


I wanted to ask you about that climactic scene with the five Two Rivers characters on the tower and the fiery dragon in the sky behind them. We spent season 1 wondering which of them was the Dragon Reborn, and we eventually learned that Rand (Josha Stradowski) was the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon. Throughout season 2, Moiraine (Rosamund Pike) has been reciting this prophecy of how the Dragon Reborn will declare himself to the world on that tower. But I just couldn't help but notice that if Rand had been on his own up there, it would not have gone down like that. He would've been gentled by the Seanchan and killed by Ishamael (Fares Fares). Their triumph was only possible because they were all there together. Doesn't it feel like "The Dragon," this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about, is really all of them?

Yeah, one of the most famous quotes of the final book is it wasn't a story about him, it was about all of them. That's what we're trying to represent in that scene on top of the tower: This is not a Chosen One story just about him, it's a Chosen One story that's about all of them, and they each fit into it in their own different way. That makes it a much more interesting story. You don't know where it's going to go. Also it makes you think, was it about all of them last time? Were Lanfear and Ishamael similar or dissimilar to Mat and Egwene? That cyclical nature of time and how it repeats itself opens up really interesting ideas.


Interview with Rafe and Decider

“It is a season so much about what it means for them to be separated from each other and each of them on their own journey. So I think the whole season hopefully really builds well to that final moment of them reunited,” Judkins said.

...

“So I think in the books, you get this sense of the characters all coming back together when they’re on the page together and they’re in the same city together. But like, they don’t actually all stand side by side in Falme at the end of the books,” The Wheel of Time showrunner Rafe Judkins admitted to Decider. “I think for the visual medium of television, it’s really important that we build to that visual of the five of them truly together in the same frame because that’s the only way you as an audience feel that reconnection of this group that you feel when you read the books. That’s the way we had to convey it.”

“From the beginning of the season, we planned that the first time that all five of them are back together is right there on the top of the tower at the end of the season.”

...

“Well, we talked about Aviendha’s character in this moment. The important thing for her is seeing the proclamation of Rand and what he is and what that drives for her into the next season,” Judkins said. “But, you know, I think there’s a good chance that those characters do all three [Elayne, Rand, Aviendha] meet in the future…”

Another interview

“Moghedien becomes one of the biggest and most important Forsaken in the book that immediately follows this one. So we really wanted her to be the first insight that you get to this world of Forsaken,” Rafe Judkins told Decider. “I mean, I love Fares Fares and Natasha O’Keeffe, so much who play Ishamael and Lanfear, and I think it’s hard to even in your mind imagine Forsaken that might be more interesting than those two are. So we wanted someone who came in and in one scene made you go, ‘Oh my God, what is going to happen in Season 3 now that all of these people are out?'”

Rafe Judkins added that they also wanted Moghedien to provide a promise that there’s an incredible backstory behind each of the Forsaken. “Because each of them are just as messed up and just as interesting and just as, like, lovably evil as Lanfear and as Ishamael are,” he said. “So I think Laia’s version of Moghedien just like perfectly gives you the dose of that at the end of the season where you can’t wait to meet the rest of the Forsaken.”

...

“The main thing we wanted to do with Mat’s moment of blowing the Horn of Valere was try to make sure that it was tied as much as we could emotionally to his character arc this season on the show.”

“One of the most iconic things about Mat in the books is that he is constantly and consistently struggling with believing that he’s a hero. He never thinks that of himself. I think it’s really important to bring that to the screen in a clear way and show the audience that. And so I think that this storyline really sets you up to understand what Mat thinks about himself and what’s really inside him.”

...

“There’s a lot of characters in the books that just sort of continue forever and it’s very happy that they all make it to the Last Battle, but we can’t really carry a cast that large,” Judkins said. “So we try to, as much as we can, give people a big chunk of time where they’re really involved in the show and then bring their time to a close and really give them a good payoff.”

“I think that people will notice that we have combined Uno with another character by the weapons that he’s using when he’s a Hero of the Horn helping Perrin. If that, if that’s not too much of a spoiler,” Judkins said.

...

“We are kind of obsessed with her and we’re obsessed with the actress who played Amaresu. She’s just incredible in the fight. You just wanted each of those heroes to feel iconic in their own way,” he said.

“We showed Birgitte, but also, as you know, Birgitte plays a really large role in the books to come,” Judkins said. “So we want to someday cast an actress to play Birgitte who can really, you know, bring Birgitte to life in the way that she has to function in the show.”


...
Is the villainous Seanchan Darkfriend High Lady Suroth dead?
A cagey Judkins teased, “I mean, unless you see a body, Meghan.”

Why turn the banner into a fiery dragon?
“In terms of Moiraine, one of the things we really wanted to do is have this exuberant outpouring of the One Power from her in the finale because we’ve had to spend a whole season of her unable to use the One Power,” Judkins said. “So to have Moiraine destroy the Seanchan fleet and then take that same fire that she used to save Rand and basically lock in his future with it in a way that, you know, would he have wanted that? I don’t know, we’ll find out.”

“But it’s Moiraine pushing her own agenda at the end with her own power. I think keeping her as a character that has her own drives, her own agenda to match up with Rand, who is his own character, who has his own drives and own agenda. That beat at the end of this season sets that relationship up really well for who’s in really in control of what the world knows about the Dragon River reborn.”
 
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Interview with Rafe at https://www.tor.com/2023/10/06/the-...ins-talks-season-2-finale-among-other-things/

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.

I noticed with the finale, that it starts out with Ishamael in the past, but there’s also a circle motif similar to what we saw in the very beginning of the first episode with the Darkfriend social. Was that intentional, to have that circular wheel imagery, so to speak, at the beginning and end of the season?

We try to use a lot of circular motifs, both visually and storytelling-wise, where you see something and then you come back around to it at the beginning or end of an episode or season, or even sometimes across two seasons. That feeling of repetition and the circular nature of time—I think it gives something subconscious to the audience that lets them get some of that Wheel of Timephilosophy as they’re watching the show.

Is there any particular use of that during season two that you were especially proud to get into the season?

I like that we had those two scenes at the beginning. It was purposeful to have the cold opens of episode one and episode eight, and also to have the cold open of episode eight of season two be back to the Age of Legends the same way the cold open of episode eight of season one was—these are the two times we see Lews Therin, and we have this circularity continuing to come back to them.


Another character I am excited to talk to you about is Liandrin. I don’t know what it says about me but she’s one of my favorite characters in the season. Her character and what we know about her background has been expanded from the books. When you were creating season two, what was behind the decision to give her more of that depth in her background, including specifically the decision to give her a son?

There were a couple of things at play in expanding Liandrin’s character. First and foremost, she just has a lot of action in the books and when that comes to screen, she does a lot of the bad guy things that get done across these next few seasons. So really understanding who she is and why she’s doing the things she does was really important to us. We’re also building towards where, in the books, there’s a big confrontation between Nynaeve and Liandrin, in terms of Nynaeve spending an entire two books hunting for Liandrin and trying to find her. So we wanted to give emotional underpinning to that as well—what is the relationship between these two women before Nynaeve is sent to hunt her? I see her as a mentor figure for Nynaeve within the Tower where we can learn a little bit about what she’s learning too.

And then the final piece we expanded with Liandrin was seeing her son. We tried a couple different times this season to give very clear visual storytelling to the idea that Aes Sedai age more slowly than other people, both with Liandrin and her son and Moiraine and her little sister. I think it’s really important when you’re adapting something like that—that’s something that you can say, but unless you see it and experience it emotionally through characters that are dealing with something because of this aging, that piece of mythology won’t really sink into the audience’s mind until they get a story about that. And it also simultaneously gives us more context on Liandrin and who she is and why she does what she does.


Another thing that we have in season two that’s new from the books, is Moiraine being stilled. What was the thought around having her go through that and also, how did you come up with the mechanism to do so?

In the books, Moiraine and Lan disappear for book two almost entirely. They have one chapter where they’re at Tifan’s Well with two retired Aes Sedai who are working on their history of the world since the breaking, and they’re struggling, with Moiraine trying to drive Lan away and him saying he’s not going to leave her, and they have a really big fight in that scene.

We tried to take all the seeds that were planted in that chapter in book two and figure out ways to expand them out to make a season two story, because you have Rosamund Pike and Daniel Henney, and you can’t really just drop them for a season, after the first season.

We really tried to look at what’s there in the books and take that and then expand outwards. And Moiraine is really feeling a sense of powerlessness in the face of what she’s up against. She’s feeling unprepared to take on the Dark One, unprepared for the Last Battle, she feels that she doesn’t have all the knowledge that she needs in that chapter in the book. And so what we really tried to do in season two was take that and make it even bigger in the show, to really understand that Moiraine is stripped of everything that we identify as who she is. She’s stripped out of being an Aes Sedai. She’s stripped of her power. She’s stripped of her relationship with Lan, her Warder. You really take the character down to bare bones, see what really exists there at the core, and then start to build her back up. And we’re lucky that we have an actress like Rosamund Pike, who can give you all those levels. And so when you see her restored to herself at the end of the season, you actually look at that character and understand her in a much deeper way than you did in season one.


In the finale, we see Rand use his powers with intent and with deadliness. I’m thinking of the scene where he goes to rescue Egwene and faces the Seanchan leader. It’s very ominous because he uses the One Power to kill them all except one. I would love to hear the thought behind creating that scene, because it is so ominous and impactful. And I also realized, a bit after watching, that it reminds me of the Indiana Jones scene where Indy is facing off a guy with a sword and he just shoots him. Was that in your head as well when you were creating that scene?

One of the most iconic scenes in book two is the face-off between Rand and Turak. But we haven’t done the storyline of Rand doing the sword forms with Lan… yet. It’s a story that’s coming. And so, in order to deliver on that scene, what we tried to do was find another scene to pair it up with and there’s this really great scene in book three.

Season two is a lot of books two and three combined. You have the iconic fight between Rand and Turak in book two and then—there’s not very many scenes of Rand in book three, but in one of them, he kills all these bandits, and they all bow to him at the end of the scene. And it’s quite disturbing in the books, and it’s quite unsettling. And so finding a way to put those two scenes together was what we intended at the beginning of the scene. It gives this dual life to Rand—we really need the audience to see the amount of power he has, even when he doesn’t really know how to use it, so that you can start to fear him as much as admire him.


In season two, Elayne and Rand aren’t together until a little moment at the end of the finale. And just knowing what happens in the books, what was the thought of putting that little hint of what’s to come with those characters in there?

It was something that was really important to us to just connect those two characters. They obviously have a huge arc in the books coming in front of them, and so to give them a moment that really signals to the audience who doesn’t know the books: “Hey, watch the relationship between these two because there’s something going on here.” I think that we succeeded in that and we also did a little hint to their meeting in the first book because Elayne is actually helping Rand after he hurts himself in their very first meeting in The Eye of the World. And so having her help him after he’s been hurt in their first meeting here, we thought it was like a nice touchstone for that.


And on twitter Sara Nakmura

Twit
In writers rooms story beats usually will go up on a white board - you do a season broad strokes first, then story arc, then character development. The Heroes beat was up day 1

Sure! Not all Writers Rooms are run the same but ours tend to follow the same general process each season. We sit down & discuss broad strokes as I mentioned, next we talk about storylines (usually by way of geographical location) after that an episode is assigned to a writer whose style & strength best suits whatever is happening in the story be it drama or action, world building or relationship building it all depends! We start at the first episode working in specific beats according to timeline & character development evolves. As we move onto the nexts eps the writer working on the 1st will be simultaneously working on their 1st draft. There are lots of moving parts & creative energy just flies around :) there is much to keep track of! It’s truly a blast.
View: https://twitter.com/sarahenakamura/status/1712907857208004810

twit
Q:
So far I love the adaptation, but I’m on the fence with the dagger storyline… maybe if Mat just finds another +1 magic spear on a side quest and returns the dagger to its rightful owner

A:
🫢
😉
(face with open eyes and hand over mouth) (winking face)


twit
Q: Thanks for all the insight on the Writing Room process! Loved S2 QQ: The biggest concern from S2 for many fans is Rand’s lack of displays of power. His power is crucial for the story as it is why he is both feared AND key to defeating the DO Will this be addressed in S3?

A: I gotta WAFO but consider this for me - how much power was Rand displaying by the end of book 2? You & I have the benefit of knowing the complete version of Rand but we’ve got to keep in mind how much he’s truly developed & the level of control he has at this point of the story.

The poster was raising a concern about his “power” so that is specifically what my response is directed towards! Rand says it in the LB - it’s never just about him - it’s about them all. The LB couldn’t be won without them all working together. It’s a theme that needs setting up.

Rand says this during the LB & he needs to go on a journey to discover this lesson but you’ve got to set things up. From a book perspective this is the last time we see all of them together so it’s important that we see a victory with them all working together as a reference point. A place in time that can be looked upon to validate the lesson he should’ve be aware of the whole time but due to “power” & madness he loses sight of everything. Including his friends & their support.
 
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A new interview with Rafe - Season 3 will focus on Fourth Book. Will expore Sea Folk culture and the Aiel . Will visit Two Rivers, Tanchico, Rhuidean.

Rafe Judkins revealed that audiences can expect that season three will focus more on Rand and Perrin, and that characters will visit places both familiar and previously unseen in the series. That includes a return to the Two Rivers and fan-favorite cities like Tanchico and Rhuidean. The show will be visiting the Aiel Waste, offering the chance to dig into Aiel culture, as well as the reveal that the show will also showcase the Sea Folk, a seafaring people known for trading

We really felt like the Forsaken are such an incredible part of the books, and we wanted to bring them to the forefront in season two, earlier than they really are forefronted in the books,” he said. “I’ve seen some very serious commentary online about the Forsaken and who may not be in the show, but I can confirm that we have cast and put that set [of] Forsaken you have not seen in the show as of yet.”

One of the other cool things that we get to explore is the culture of these incredible warriors in The Wheel of Time world,” he continued. “We get to go really meet them and see them go to where they’re from. We also get to explore with some of our characters the world of dreams and dreamwalking, and I think that’s a really cool thing to get to do in season three because it is one of those unique elements in Wheel of Time that no other book series really has. So we really explore that world and season three


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnr7Kp2IUUI
 
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Here is recording of full Rafe's Q&A interview after Episode 208 -

ew.com interview

"Once they're all out, you get two really fun things," Judkins tells EW. "One, each of these characters is an immortal person of incredible power that has three thousand years of history behind them. Hopefully that scene with Moghedien is a real signal to the audience that you may love Ishamael and Lanfear, but also each of these people is totally unique and crazy in their own way."


Judkins reveals fans will also get to see the "fun, 'who's a Cylon' storyline" when episodes return. "Are there any Forsaken hiding in our world that we're meeting in season 3? In the books, each of them appears in their own way that's unique to that Forsaken. And so it's a really fun thing to unravel in the show because they're almost like representatives of these different versions of evil. Moghedien's fun because she is not driven by love in the way that Lanfear and Ishamael are, and she is a much more dangerous character because of that."


The last time all 13 Forsaken were alive in the world, the Dragon was incarnated as Lews Therin Telamon (Alexander Karim). That was thousands of years ago, but what happened back then is still a driving force in what they do and what they want.


"Both Ishamael and Lanfear get another shot with this person that they were very close with and ended up becoming mortal enemies of," Judkins says. "So with Lanfear it's like, is she trying to recapture love with this man she loved three thousand years ago? Is she starting to fall for Rand, or does she hate Rand and only love the pieces of him that are Lews? That is so interesting and complicated, and that's a relationship that can sustain a lot of seasons of interest because both of their perspectives on it are f—ed up and unique in a way that is very cool for the show. We get to explore something that you don't get to explore very often."

"In the books. I don't know if you ever believe Rand's going to be with Lanfear," Judkins says. "But we felt like for that character to work in the visual medium of television, you needed to be able to believe that there's some chance that those two could end up together. So one of the things we did right up front was in the casting process, we did chemistry reads with Josha and potential Lanfears because we were like, you have to feel that there's something real between these two."


Judkins continues, "we just tried to humanize her in every way we could because a lot of her stuff in the books is a little bit more straight-down-the-middle evil early on. By the end of the book series, you really come to understand who she is as a woman, which makes her lovable even when she's doing horrible things. We tried to bring that and put it all in season 2."
 
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