Oaths, Aes Sedai, and Damane

[Jorell al'Racha]

Please direct me to the existing discussion if this already exists.

A thought occurred to me: An Aes Sedai swears on the oath rod to never use the power as a weapon. But we know that Aes Sedai are captured and made damane when the Seanchan attack the White Tower, and other times. But damane use the power as a weapon. I sense a conflict of Ter'angreal here: on one hand, an oath preventing the Aes Seday damane from using the power in such a way, and another allowing the sul'dam to control the damane and force her.

Or maybe there is no real conflict, and some poor woman is going to get a whole lot of punishment from her Sul'dam. Or maybe the oath is circumvented somehow?

What are your theories or thoughts on this?

 

[Teavin Calayna]

The a'dam was crafted by an Aes Sedai as an indsidious tool to be used against other Aes Sedai to I'd say the oaths are something she might have taken into consideration when crafting it and how to get around it. Anyone, Aes Sedai or not, is punished if they try to attack the Sul'dam while they're leashed because that is a concious choice of their own will. But, when the Sul'dam dictates the Aes Sedai to use the one power to attack others it's not an act of their free will. They're forced into doing this and the lines of whether they are breaking the oaths becomes blurred even more when the torture and conditioning they're put through warps their minds to point they don't even remember who they are. Nothing of who they were remains to the point where they're just damane and not even Aes Sedai any more but a slave

 

[Arinna Katal]

Aes Sedai who are made damane cannot use the Power as a weapon, even when compelled by the a'dam. There's a mention of one of Tuon's damane who had been Aes Sedai being very upset that she couldn't help rescue Tuon on account of being unable to use the Power as a weapon. A sul'dam needed to console her by telling her how good she was at other things, like Sky Lights and Healing.

 

[Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum]

Aes Sedai who are made damane cannot use the Power as a weapon, even when compelled by the a'dam. There's a mention of one of Tuon's damane who had been Aes Sedai being very upset that she couldn't help rescue Tuon on account of being unable to use the Power as a weapon. A sul'dam needed to console her by telling her how good she was at other things, like Sky Lights and Healing.

Yes, that. The a'dam cannot supcede the Oaths

 

[Ephrem Elpidius]

ugh the Seanchan and Tuon are literally the only two things I disliked about the Wheel of Time. sigh. wish they played less of a role in the series. its one of the reasons I keep dnf'ing my re-read, i just can't get past the Seanchan being introduced so early in the series, triggers me

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

The Aes Sedai in Seanchan, the ones who made the a'dam wasn't bound my the oaths. That is purely a Tar Valon thing, not something others do.
And as mentioned above, Aes Sedai who are made into damane cannot be used in battle. Nor can they lie, as Suroth tested on "Pura" by punishing her when she couldn't say that a red cloth was green

 

[Satara al'Caelahn]

Aes Sedai who are made damane cannot use the Power as a weapon, even when compelled by the a'dam. There's a mention of one of Tuon's damane who had been Aes Sedai being very upset that she couldn't help rescue Tuon on account of being unable to use the Power as a weapon. A sul'dam needed to console her by telling her how good she was at other things, like Sky Lights and Healing.

Yes, that. The a'dam cannot supcede the Oaths

This is true... to their knowledge. Let's not forget that WoT is a series that plays heavily into the incorrect narrator trope.

We know that the Oaths are subjective based upon the Aes Sedai. We see this in the battle for the Two Rivers when, I believe Alanna channels against the trollocs first, but Verin doesn't feel in danger yet, and has to wait until the trollocs are closer before she can feel as though she's acting in defense of her life.

I think if an Aes Sedai really, truly believes that the a'dam means that it's the sul'dam using the OP as a weapon and not themselves using it, the Oaths would allow it. But the Aes Sedai would really have to believe that to be true.

 

[Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum]

This is true... to their knowledge. Let's not forget that WoT is a series that plays heavily into the incorrect narrator trope.

We know that the Oaths are subjective based upon the Aes Sedai. We see this in the battle for the Two Rivers when, I believe Alanna channels against the trollocs first, but Verin doesn't feel in danger yet, and has to wait until the trollocs are closer before she can feel as though she's acting in defense of her life.

I think if an Aes Sedai really, truly believes that the a'dam means that it's the sul'dam using the OP as a weapon and not themselves using it, the Oaths would allow it. But the Aes Sedai would really have to believe that to be true.

From what I understood, from my reading of it, the sul'dam had tried to break the Oaths and couldn't. Some, and possibly many, sul'dam can actually channel and just use damane as conduits for control, like a human ter'angreal. With so many Aes Sedai captured, and so many different sul'dam with different styles of training and use of the a'dam, it's safe to say that the Oaths have yet another hold on a collared Aes Sedai.

And with channeling being such a physical thing, and the Oaths being described as something settling on their skin that they feel for the rest of their lives (and they just kind of get used to), the Oaths are physically a part of them, and the a'dam can be taken off eventually.

 

[Boreas Silverfir]

The Aes Sedai in Seanchan, the ones who made the a'dam wasn't bound my the oaths. That is purely a Tar Valon thing, not something others do.

My understanding is that the first a'dam was created before Hawkwing sent his armies over the sea. I recall, can't remember which book, that a Red gave it to him during his conquest. She was then surprised when he collared her during the siege of Tar Valon

 

[Arinna Katal]

My understanding is that the first a'dam was created before Hawkwing sent his armies over the sea. I recall, can't remember which book, that a Red gave it to him during his conquest. She was then surprised when he collared her during the siege of Tar Valon

This statement is not accurate. According to Renna, the first a'dam was made by Deain (https://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Deain). Because she was from Seanchan and not Tar Valon, she had no Ajah and never swore the Oaths, both of which were developed in Tar Valon after the Breaking.

 

[Boreas Silverfir]

This statement is not accurate. According to Renna, the first a'dam was made by Deain (https://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Deain). Because she was from Seanchan and not Tar Valon, she had no Ajah and never swore the Oaths, both of which were developed in Tar Valon after the Breaking.

faulty memory doesn't only affect computers. I did remember correctly that the creator was then collared herself at least.

 

[Jorell al'Racha]

This is true... to their knowledge. Let's not forget that WoT is a series that plays heavily into the incorrect narrator trope.

We know that the Oaths are subjective based upon the Aes Sedai. We see this in the battle for the Two Rivers when, I believe Alanna channels against the trollocs first, but Verin doesn't feel in danger yet, and has to wait until the trollocs are closer before she can feel as though she's acting in defense of her life.

This is not correct. The third oath states:

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai.

So, Verin didn't need to wait to to attack the trollocs and nor did Alanna. Verin is a darkfriend, though we did not know this yet, so it could be that she had other reasons to wait. In my third time through the series, I'm really paying attention to Verin's behaviors.

 

[Jorell al'Racha]

Aes Sedai who are made damane cannot use the Power as a weapon, even when compelled by the a'dam. There's a mention of one of Tuon's damane who had been Aes Sedai being very upset that she couldn't help rescue Tuon on account of being unable to use the Power as a weapon. A sul'dam needed to console her by telling her how good she was at other things, like Sky Lights and Healing.

Thank you for pointing this out. I will keep my eyes open for it when Tuon enters the story. That's a few books away, however.

 

[Jorell al'Racha]

They're forced into doing this and the lines of whether they are breaking the oaths becomes blurred even more when the torture and conditioning they're put through warps their minds to point they don't even remember who they are. Nothing of who they were remains to the point where they're just damane and not even Aes Sedai any more but a slave

I think this was the crux of the question I had, which @Arinna Katal has mostly settled: Is it the individual's belief that powers the oath and prevents them from using the power as a weapon, or is it the One Power itself, via the oath rod, that prevents them from using it as a weapon? It's definitely the latter.

Thanks for the great discussion!

And @Ephrem Elpidius , I really dislike the Seanchan, too. But it's part of the pattern so.....yeah. Also, I love the Tuon/Mat story, so there's that to look forward to.

 

[Satara al'Caelahn]

This is not correct. The third oath states:

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai.

So, Verin didn't need to wait to to attack the trollocs and nor did Alanna. Verin is a darkfriend, though we did not know this yet, so it could be that she had other reasons to wait. In my third time through the series, I'm really paying attention to Verin's behaviors.

I'm aware of what the third Oath states. It's also stated multiple times in the books that what "last extreme defense" entails. So the example that I used of Verin was just the first thing that I thought of, but it was only one example. Being a Darkfriend herself and free from the Oaths, she could do whatever she wanted, but that doesn't change the principle shown by her actions. Each Aes Sedai would feel endangered at different points. A good showcase of this is actually the battle at Dumai's Wells. The Aes Sedai venture into the battle simply so that they would be in danger, so that they could use the One Power as a weapon to "defend themselves."

The same is true of convincing themselves that they are or aren't in control of the power. The Oaths themselves have the same loopholes as the Oath for lying being to "say no word that is not true." If they believe it to be true they can say it, even if it's not true. Because to them, it's not a lie. That extends to their use of the One Power as a weapon. If they truly, honestly believe that they aren't the one in control of the power, they could reason with themselves in their own mind that they aren't actually using it as a weapon, the sul'dam is. If they really honestly believe that the people they're using the OP against are Darkfriends, they could do it. If they believe themselves to be in mortal danger, they could do it.

So while Verin maybe wasn't the best example, the principle behind it stands true.

 

[Ruslan Rynar]

Also, those Aes Sedai fight with Mat and talk about not feeling afraid enough to start hurling fire. He was fighting Seanchan, that was, if I remember correctly, after Tuon.