I am disappointed (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Corwin Matheos, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    I mean - c'mon!

    There are so many loose ends and inconsistencies in the ending that it hurts.

    For example, we go through the whole Aviendha at Ruidean story - for what? So they do two things differently and now everything is OK, the future is going to change? And who the hell is Nakomi? Why did Rhuarc die? Because they changed the document about Dragon peace? Because that was about the only thing that changed, and it doesn't make sense.

    Perrin SURVIVES? What about the prophecies about fallen wolf?

    Alivia will help Rand die? WTH??? She gets him a horse and a bag of coins and that was that great role she had to play?

    Demandred being with Sharans is another disappointment. Typical DEUS EX MACHINA, this was cliche even back in Roman times. So, he wasn't playing some big game, big plot in a known universe, he was just off the grid? Ridiculous.

    And what the hell was Taim doing with the seals? DO entrusted the most important items in universe to new Chosen for keeping who was just carrying them in a pouch, and was doing that so stupidly so that anyone can mug him? This doesn't make any sense at all.

    And what the hell happened with everybody after the battle was over? We are supposed to guess? We read 14 books and now we are left to guess what happened with everyone? Was Greandal still serving Aviendha? Perhaps they could make her WO apprentice...

    There are many more things, but these are just from the top of my head.
     
  2. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    I dunno. Who should he have trusted? Look what Lanfear did. And Asmodean. Heck, anyone would betray the DO, given the right incentive.

    Would've been nice. But it would've been another book entirely to cover all characters ...
     
  3. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    It would have been more ridiculous if the forsaken had completely left the Sharans alone. We know they set up power bases in the Westlands, the White Tower and the corenne, it was too much of a resource to ignore

    I don't know what to make of that. If Perrin is the Broken Wolf, how has death known him? What are the midnight Towers?

    Taim had the seals because he was the one to steal them, or at least his agents.
     
  4. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    I agree, but there was so much build up about Demandred. So this was way to simple, IMO.

    And about the prophecy, just like many others, this one does not make any sense, which is thoroughly disappointing.

    And about Taim... It still doesn't make sense to me that he wasn't required to surrender them immediately either to Moridin, which would make the most sense, or to Demandred. If they were on Moridin, that could have made another thing make sense - Moraine's vital role for Rand's success, for example (which was lacking, imo). If they were on Demandred, getting them would be harder at least. I mean pickpocketing the seals from an idiot's pouch, seals that were discussed through all 14 books, seals that hold the DO from reaching the world, that is just bad idea, if you ask me. And do we have any sensible explanation why DO's minions didn't break them immediately? I think not.
     
  5. Raeviendha al'Toma

    Raeviendha al'Toma Resident Citizen

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    I agree Corwin Matheos. I was left hanging on several points.... Aviendha being one. I was not satisfied with the ending. There is more to know, know what I mean? I would gladly read another whole book that would finish things off..... give an explanation of who's doing what, how the Last Battle affected them, and the outcome of it all. Gah.
     
  6. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    We don't know when Demandred recruited Taim. Remember, he gave Rand one of the Seals when he met him, it's possible he was already a darkfriend then I can't think of a reason why they weren't broken, but it cuold be that just as the Light required them to be broken at the right moment, the Shadow had the same - many of the ways of the Shadow are complex, for example Moridin saving Rand at Shayol Ghul and saying if Rand died it would affect many plans.
     
  7. Sorcha Al'Verdan

    Sorcha Al'Verdan Aes Sedai

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    It occurs to me that Taim might have passed off a fake seal to Rand, just to see if he could tell the difference... When he didn't get called on it, he knew his forgeries were good enough and he proceeded to swipe the rest...

    For me, if we see another book I'd prefer it to be several hundred years removed...
     
  8. Brandon Tataru

    Brandon Tataru Gaidin Master of Accepted & Soldiers

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    I have a theory of the Broken Wolf and the Midnight Towers. Slayer was the broken wolf. He was like a wolf brother but not one. He was broken in that aspect. And since the DO knew of him and did something to him. There is the death part of it. Now the Midnight Towers I see as the wolf dream and the real world. Seeing as Slayer was killed going back and forth between the two worlds/towers he was consumed by them. Just a theory but it works for me.
     
  9. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    I don't see why it's too simple. Why would there have to be some sort of massive, complex plan at work behind Demandred? We only knew that Demandred had been gathering an army. Shara has always been one of the main theories (by elimination), along with Murandy.

    What, honestly, did you expect?


    The Dark One obviously holds Taim in a very high regard, considering the promotion to Chosen. The only 3rd-Ager to receive that honor. If Taim managed to steal them, why would he be any less qualified than Demandred to keep them safe? Or perhaps that was the entire idea - that if the theft was discovered, they'd assume that the seals would be held by either Moridin or Demandred.

    The reason for not breaking them right away ... The Dark One seemed to be a big fan of the whole fighting-the-champion-of-the-Light-thing. Perhaps The Dark One needed them to be broken at a specific time to get what it wanted.
     
  10. Laurelin Allendra

    Laurelin Allendra

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    Better theory than I've been able to come up with, but I'm still not sure we have it right. What is the "Fallen Blacksmith's pride"? There's some connection between Perrin and the Broken Wolf, if he isn't the wolf, and I suppose Slayer has that connection, but most people didn't even know about him - his destruction certainly didn't bring them fear or sorrow or any of that.

    I just don't know who else it would be. Jain? He died in the Towers, and I suppose now he knows Death as he's one of the Heroes, but he doesn't have any wolf connection. Lan? Again no wolf connection, and no Towers, either. Mat knows Death in several different contexts and went through the Towers, but it doesn't fit him either. I dunno, I can't figure it out, but who knows. Maybe it hasn't happened yet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  11. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito

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    I remain firmly convinced that Taim was written to be Demandred in LOC, then RJ changed his mind at some point during the writing of ACOS and denied it ever after. There are substantial inconsistencies in ACOS (Graendal's out of character meddling in Shara right under Demandred's nose, the Black Tower prophecy) that I suspect slipped through editing, and weak plot lines later on that don't have to happen under the Taimandred scenario.

    The seals have to be someplace where somebody can get them. I think we can pin the specific plot line on Sanderson since that's his character, but the ultimate responsibility for the underlying problem lies with RJ. My suspicion is that Sanderson inherited the fallout from the Taimandred problem and resolved it the best he could. The Elaida Foretelling makes a lot more sense if Rand realizes he's an idiot after the epiphany and the Great Purge, explains that he's an idiot to Egwene, leads a White Tower sortie with circles of 72 to smash Taim & Company and discovers that Taimandred has the seals.

    Here's the problem. Suppose Demandred is carrying the seals around with him. Rand balefires him, because he now knows that's the only solution to the Forsaken. Trouble is, the seals are vulnerable, and Rand blows both Demandred and the seals out of existence an hour back. So Rand drops dead, because the Last Battle started an hour ago without him and Rand got killed while defenseless. Except then Rand can't balefire Demandred, and so he doesn't die, except now he balefires Demandred, so he dies...and the DO says, "I WIN AGAIN, LEWS THERIN" except Rand isn't around to hear because the universe exploded from the paradox. The Creator replies, "STALEMATE. THIS SUCKS. MULLIGAN?" and after some discussion they hit upon a solution. They agree to separate Demandred and the seals by dividing Taimandred into Taim and Demandred, exile Demandred to Shara and tell him never to show his face in Randland again for fear of another universe-shattering balefire catastrophe.

    Moridin. The Creator can't or won't give Moridin what he wants (oblivion). Neither can his servants. Moridin is therefore guaranteed to be 100% loyal to the DO. Trouble is, Rand and Moridin are both going to end up at Shayol Ghul, so you have to send the seals somewhere else. Obvious candidate solutions are a stasis box in the Blight, Demandred and Taim. If I'm the DO, I'm taking the stasis box hands down any day of the week. I retain Shaidar Haran, and only I know where the stasis box is. Much less chance for human idiocy that way, and I can always instantaneously access them via Myrddraal-teleport when the time is right if the spot is underground or otherwise permanently in shadow.
     
  12. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Yes, I agree with everything you wrote, Martin. I believe we are victims of poor writer's planning here.

    And to be honest, and I don't mean to offend anyone, I am amazed with capacities and willingness of some people to come up with "theories" and guesses in order to make up for failed writing. This happens often, I still remember people defending "Matrix" series and coming up with all sorts of whacky theories to make senseless writing make sense.

    Lot of plots were solved abruptly and superficially, which leaves a very bitter taste after so much build up. Also, we have no idea about destinies of some of the characters we followed for a long time. I believe we should be honest here, even though it hurts, and admit that this was a bad ending to the series and an example of failed planning and poor writing. I had big hopes for Sanderson, especially because both GS and ToM were good books. This book is not good, and as an ending to the series I would say it is a fail and that I feel let down.

    The only book in the series I really didn't like was PoD. It was too long, many pages were lost on unimportant bickering, planning and actions without long term consequences. Exactly the opposite is true for MoL. MoL should have been longer by some 300 pages. This way, at least not so many questions would be left unanswered.

    Now I feel exactly the way I felt after the last episode of Battlestar: Galactica. But I wont use harsh words here. Sapienti sat.
     
  13. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    I do agree that some things are bad writing, or inconsistent because there was no good way for Sanderson to wrap them up. That is why i didn't reply to everything you wrote.

    But to say that people are "willing to make up theories" to excuse "failed writing" just because they don't agree with you is insulting.
     
  14. Taika Vinh

    Taika Vinh Aes Sedai

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    I find this hilarious, if it's indeed her great role! :lol They all fretted SO much over this particular viewing of Min (herself included), that it would just be so ... deflating. :giggle
    Alivia, in all her great strength of wielding the Power, prepared the horse and supplies, and thus helped him "die" (i.e. disappear from all of the other people except his three wives). A great reminder that not all Min's viewings are on a large scale, and definitely not all interpreted right.
     
  15. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    It was not meant to be insulting, that's just my observation regarding not only WoT but also other book series/TV shows/movie series which have a large base of followers.

    It's an observation about social phenomenon and my personal opinion, it has nothing to do with anyone agreeing or disagreeing with me about particular book or "theory".
     
  16. Syera Faelron

    Syera Faelron Aes Sedai

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    MOD NOTE:
    Hi there,

    Keep it friendly, so many people with have different theories and opinions. Enjoy the book and ideas..
     
  17. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Alright, thanks.

    In some instances, I would agree with you. I do agree that some things feel like they're based on bad writing, here. But I also believe that some things that aren't made clear, weren't supposed to. We don't know why the Dark One didn't break the Seals at once. We don't know everything concerning Demandred. We don't know why The Dark One entrusted the Seals to Taim.

    But that has always been RJ's style. We never knew who killed Asmodean, even though there were many guesses, and the Graendal theory was one of the more popular ones. RJ, though, felt that he had left us enough clues (which he apparently had as well). Same is true for Mesaana's secret identity.
     
  18. Keirune

    Keirune

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    I appreciate that they wanted to keep Jordan's ending purely Jordan, but they failed to think about the fact that Mr. Jordan had intended prequels and sequels to explain them. I think they did the series a huge disservice by not tying the various loose ends, since Harriet has made it clear she does not want more books written. I felt horrible that I was so disappointed at the end. It's good to see I'm not the only one. I still loved the book, it's just immensely frustrating.
     
  19. AnAnonymousWOTFan

    AnAnonymousWOTFan

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    Agreed. I loved the ending and though it was great, but it would be nice to have a follow-up on what comes after. I understand Harriet's rationale behind not wanting mroe books, but the series is so huge and ToM and even AMoL itself opened so many "after TG" questions that it is crazy that Team Jordan is not addressing them. If anything, it would make them a lot more money.
     
  20. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    And here I thought one of the main complains was against WoT was that RJ had, supposedly, milked them for as much money as possible? Should they just make up new stuff that Jordan hasn't taken part of, just to continue the franchise?