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- #661
We see her again In the final book
The Wheel of Time Re-read (currently reading - Lord of Chaos)
- Thread starter Ilverin Matriam
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- #662
Prologue
Elaida has an inner circle who have sworn to obey her – does she mean this literally
Danelle is there, seemingly lost in a dream, though she does pass on the information about Shienarans fighting each other
Davram Bashere has set out with an army – Elaida assumes this is to capture Taim
The ones mentioned are Teslyn, Javindhra, Joline, Evanalllein, Danelle, Shemerin, Andaya
Elaida is obsessively blaming Siuan for everything
Fain is there. Corrupting Elaida, though there isn’t much need. He is trying to use her to get to Rand
Graendal, Sammael and Lanfear come to visit Rahvin. An old man in a wrinkled coat is pointed out as one of Graendal’s pets – Jain Charin I assume
Demandred apparently thinks he is all but the Great lord’s heir
Lanfear claims one of the other Forsaken is trying to control or kill Rand
Chapter 1
Leane has decided to take up flirting – She tried on Bryne first
Min apparently knows that the oath rod binds Aes Sedai
Byrne is able to tell that Leane is Domani and Leane is Tairen
There is a water shortage
Min has another viewing of Logain – glory to come
Logain knocks out Joni to rescue them, but surprisingly shows concern over him
Bryne decides to follow after them – mostly because Siuan had an effect on him
Alteima has fled Tear to Andor – does anything ever come of this?
Alteima tells Morgase of how Rand has little respect for a person’s position, but it sounds entirely reasonable. Morgase assumed that Rand brought the Aiel with him, and Alteima agrees
Rahvin uses compulsion on Alteima to make her worhsip him – for little cause really, other than he is evil
Chapter 2
Apparently the dragon tattoos on Rand’s arms aren’t tattos – they are something else
He thinks the time that he would have avoided the name “dragon reborn” is long past. A month or two is hardly “long past”
Moiraine is organising the transport of the ter’angreal back to the Tower- I wonder how many there are compared to how many were in Tear, or were already in the White Tower
Avendesora has been burnt – I tried reading his fight with Asmodean carefully, and though a fireball was mentioned, there was no mention of this, even though Rand did survey the damage.
Six clan chiefs have come to follow Rand
The Aiel now know what the sin was that sent them to the Waste. It always surprises me just how many shrug their shoulders and basically say “meh”
Bael and Jheran keep agreeing with each other and are not amused by this. I however do find this amusing.
Egwene, after some growth in the last book is back to being an insufferable child
Another of the seals has been found. This makes two that were never in the White Tower (the one in Seandar likely wasn’t, but it is feasible)
Moiraine reveals she will have to leave Rand eventually
Egwene thinks Rand is being unreasonably arrogant and stubbborn, but he is right and it is her and Moiraine that are being arrogant and somewhat deluded here.
Egwene basically throws a tantrum because he catches her out revealing something she didn’t want to reveal and is embarrassed.
Rand has a memory of Ilyena – is this a real one,or just a madness image?
Elaida has an inner circle who have sworn to obey her – does she mean this literally
Danelle is there, seemingly lost in a dream, though she does pass on the information about Shienarans fighting each other
Davram Bashere has set out with an army – Elaida assumes this is to capture Taim
The ones mentioned are Teslyn, Javindhra, Joline, Evanalllein, Danelle, Shemerin, Andaya
Elaida is obsessively blaming Siuan for everything
Fain is there. Corrupting Elaida, though there isn’t much need. He is trying to use her to get to Rand
Graendal, Sammael and Lanfear come to visit Rahvin. An old man in a wrinkled coat is pointed out as one of Graendal’s pets – Jain Charin I assume
Demandred apparently thinks he is all but the Great lord’s heir
Lanfear claims one of the other Forsaken is trying to control or kill Rand
Chapter 1
Leane has decided to take up flirting – She tried on Bryne first
Min apparently knows that the oath rod binds Aes Sedai
Byrne is able to tell that Leane is Domani and Leane is Tairen
There is a water shortage
Min has another viewing of Logain – glory to come
Logain knocks out Joni to rescue them, but surprisingly shows concern over him
Bryne decides to follow after them – mostly because Siuan had an effect on him
Alteima has fled Tear to Andor – does anything ever come of this?
Alteima tells Morgase of how Rand has little respect for a person’s position, but it sounds entirely reasonable. Morgase assumed that Rand brought the Aiel with him, and Alteima agrees
Rahvin uses compulsion on Alteima to make her worhsip him – for little cause really, other than he is evil
Chapter 2
Apparently the dragon tattoos on Rand’s arms aren’t tattos – they are something else
He thinks the time that he would have avoided the name “dragon reborn” is long past. A month or two is hardly “long past”
Moiraine is organising the transport of the ter’angreal back to the Tower- I wonder how many there are compared to how many were in Tear, or were already in the White Tower
Avendesora has been burnt – I tried reading his fight with Asmodean carefully, and though a fireball was mentioned, there was no mention of this, even though Rand did survey the damage.
Six clan chiefs have come to follow Rand
The Aiel now know what the sin was that sent them to the Waste. It always surprises me just how many shrug their shoulders and basically say “meh”
Bael and Jheran keep agreeing with each other and are not amused by this. I however do find this amusing.
Egwene, after some growth in the last book is back to being an insufferable child
Another of the seals has been found. This makes two that were never in the White Tower (the one in Seandar likely wasn’t, but it is feasible)
Moiraine reveals she will have to leave Rand eventually
Egwene thinks Rand is being unreasonably arrogant and stubbborn, but he is right and it is her and Moiraine that are being arrogant and somewhat deluded here.
Egwene basically throws a tantrum because he catches her out revealing something she didn’t want to reveal and is embarrassed.
Rand has a memory of Ilyena – is this a real one,or just a madness image?
- Moderator
- #663
Chapter 2 has a lot of talking and not a lot of things happening. The few important things though, are hidden in all the words...
This will sadly be a trend in coming books
We are getting closer and closer to the slump now
This will sadly be a trend in coming books
We are getting closer and closer to the slump now
- Admin
- #664
Yeah, the trend of needing to show things that previously happened entirely off screen is only going to get stronger. Would we really have lost anything important if we didn’t have that Elaida scene for example?
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- #665
Ugh, at least we didn't have Pedron Niall this time...
The Elaida scene is a little important because it shows us what is happening in the Tower, but the scene is too long and mainly used for recap...
The Elaida scene is a little important because it shows us what is happening in the Tower, but the scene is too long and mainly used for recap...
- Admin
- #666
And the rest of week one
Chapter 3
We learn that lanfear did puta partial sheild around Asmodean, and also that weaves can be inverted so they can’t be seen – could someone disguise their own strength in the Power in a similar way?
Rand has learned very quickly – he canalsways seize saidin, tell the flows apart and not to things by accident
Asmodean points out that Moiraine only has to believe a thing is true – it doesn’t mean it actually is
Rahvin has a queen for a pet- this should narrow it down to Saldaea, Kandor or Andor
One of the Maidens guarding Rand gave up to marry – he thinks this is a ta’veren effect, as there are many doing it.
Rand has discovered a weave that only effects men who can channel
Mat is gambling with the aiel and peddlars – he is able to feel when he is about to be extremely lucky
He danced in the court of Tarmandewin – person or place. We have it in the library as a place, but that might be an assumption
Mat meets Melindhra and accidentally gives her a regard gift
Chapter 4
Rand thinks it is now hard to control his temper
Aviendha thinks Wetlander women just stand about for men to look at
She tells him that she hates him with all her heart and always well. It’s absolutely clear that this isn’t totally honest
She refers to Elayne as her near sister – previously she didn’t care for Elayne at all and was only watchng Rand as a favour to Egwene
Rand’s obsession with not hurting women comes out here
Chapter 5
Egwene is reflecting on her own faults, but misses out being jealous of Rand
Moiraine argues with the Aiel that he will turn all the Westlands against him. I have no idea why she thinks they will care other than she is Aes sedai and she thinks that is enough
Aviendha has been switched for lying – she didn’t say what, but it’s obviously her claim to hate Rand
Some of the fleeing Aiel are going to the Tua’athon. Which makes sense
Apparently it is possible to partially enter someone’s dreams
Aviendha asks Egwene if a woman from her lands could accept a sister wife – not even trying to be subtle here
Again, Egwene’s loyalty is to Elayne, and though she thinks she loves him like a brother, in reality, she sees Rand as a thing to be given to whoever of her friends wil be made happy.
Chapter 6
How were the Darkhounds sent? There are no waygates, so it must be through a portal stone, unless they marched for miles
These Darkhounds don’t die for anything less than balefire
Moiraine is unable to heal Mat with his Medallion on
Lan is offended that Moiraine begs Rand and asks “Is this how a man acts”- in my opinion, yes it is.
We learn of balefire and the problems it causes
Asmodean isn’t strong enough to shield his dreams – Lanfear occasionally watches them, why don’t the Wise Ones?
Lanfear tells him Rahvin is in Andor
Lanfear has also being watching the Wise Ones dreams – it seems she does know more than they do
Egwene dreams of Gawyn and Galad, though more often of Gawyn for some reason
Chapter 3
We learn that lanfear did puta partial sheild around Asmodean, and also that weaves can be inverted so they can’t be seen – could someone disguise their own strength in the Power in a similar way?
Rand has learned very quickly – he canalsways seize saidin, tell the flows apart and not to things by accident
Asmodean points out that Moiraine only has to believe a thing is true – it doesn’t mean it actually is
Rahvin has a queen for a pet- this should narrow it down to Saldaea, Kandor or Andor
One of the Maidens guarding Rand gave up to marry – he thinks this is a ta’veren effect, as there are many doing it.
Rand has discovered a weave that only effects men who can channel
Mat is gambling with the aiel and peddlars – he is able to feel when he is about to be extremely lucky
He danced in the court of Tarmandewin – person or place. We have it in the library as a place, but that might be an assumption
Mat meets Melindhra and accidentally gives her a regard gift
Chapter 4
Rand thinks it is now hard to control his temper
Aviendha thinks Wetlander women just stand about for men to look at
She tells him that she hates him with all her heart and always well. It’s absolutely clear that this isn’t totally honest
She refers to Elayne as her near sister – previously she didn’t care for Elayne at all and was only watchng Rand as a favour to Egwene
Rand’s obsession with not hurting women comes out here
Chapter 5
Egwene is reflecting on her own faults, but misses out being jealous of Rand
Moiraine argues with the Aiel that he will turn all the Westlands against him. I have no idea why she thinks they will care other than she is Aes sedai and she thinks that is enough
Aviendha has been switched for lying – she didn’t say what, but it’s obviously her claim to hate Rand
Some of the fleeing Aiel are going to the Tua’athon. Which makes sense
Apparently it is possible to partially enter someone’s dreams
Aviendha asks Egwene if a woman from her lands could accept a sister wife – not even trying to be subtle here
Again, Egwene’s loyalty is to Elayne, and though she thinks she loves him like a brother, in reality, she sees Rand as a thing to be given to whoever of her friends wil be made happy.
Chapter 6
How were the Darkhounds sent? There are no waygates, so it must be through a portal stone, unless they marched for miles
These Darkhounds don’t die for anything less than balefire
Moiraine is unable to heal Mat with his Medallion on
Lan is offended that Moiraine begs Rand and asks “Is this how a man acts”- in my opinion, yes it is.
We learn of balefire and the problems it causes
Asmodean isn’t strong enough to shield his dreams – Lanfear occasionally watches them, why don’t the Wise Ones?
Lanfear tells him Rahvin is in Andor
Lanfear has also being watching the Wise Ones dreams – it seems she does know more than they do
Egwene dreams of Gawyn and Galad, though more often of Gawyn for some reason
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Just to plug this in here too: If anyone wants to join me Satuday Jan 15th for a re-read discussion party is welcome to our discord server!
https://www.tarvalon.net/index.php?...-discussion-party-january-15th-3pm-est.48476/
https://www.tarvalon.net/index.php?...-discussion-party-january-15th-3pm-est.48476/
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- #668
Thoughts on the next two. Very little happens here, Rand gets ready to move and Nynaeve meets some Whitecloaks
Chapter 7
Egwene has been watching Isendre’s dreams. They are unpleasant but not obviously a Darkfriend. She doesn’t seem to have been trying to watch Asmodean’s dreams.
She has also been spying on Aviendha’s dreams
Egwene is very judgemental about Mat and Melisendre
Aviendha lies about being afraid of Rand. The bracelet he gave her is weighing heavily on her
She wonders why Rand lets such a bootlicker as Natael stay with him – I’m a little surprised she doesn’t expect this, given how much she goes on about his swollen head.
Moiraine thinks she would have taken all the objects of the power if she could, but only managed a fraction.
We learn about what happens when the Apprentices go to Rhuidean for the first time – Is this the first time? They learn of their possible futures. This gives a further clue to why Aviendha is so antagonistic to Rand – I think we can probably work out that she has seen she is destined to be with him
Saying “A redbird in Seleisin” –
Apparently, there was a possible future where she took Rand to her bed
Lan makes a joke – Moiraine thinks he never did in the past
Chapter 8
Nynaeve and Elayne left Tanchico in disguise, to avoid the attention of the Black Ajah – where did they learn such caution?
Elayne is flirting with Thom. Before she was merely annoying, but this really marks her move into “I can’t stand that character”
Elayne asks the Whitecloak if they have come to move the border – even a little common sense should tell her a merchant wouldn’t ask that kind of question. She seems to do it at least in part because she is annoyed that Nynaeve is too subservient.
They have been travelling nearly a month – this might give us some idea of the size of the land, asthey don’t seem to have moved particularly far.
Chapter 7
Egwene has been watching Isendre’s dreams. They are unpleasant but not obviously a Darkfriend. She doesn’t seem to have been trying to watch Asmodean’s dreams.
She has also been spying on Aviendha’s dreams
Egwene is very judgemental about Mat and Melisendre
Aviendha lies about being afraid of Rand. The bracelet he gave her is weighing heavily on her
She wonders why Rand lets such a bootlicker as Natael stay with him – I’m a little surprised she doesn’t expect this, given how much she goes on about his swollen head.
Moiraine thinks she would have taken all the objects of the power if she could, but only managed a fraction.
We learn about what happens when the Apprentices go to Rhuidean for the first time – Is this the first time? They learn of their possible futures. This gives a further clue to why Aviendha is so antagonistic to Rand – I think we can probably work out that she has seen she is destined to be with him
Saying “A redbird in Seleisin” –
Apparently, there was a possible future where she took Rand to her bed
Lan makes a joke – Moiraine thinks he never did in the past
Chapter 8
Nynaeve and Elayne left Tanchico in disguise, to avoid the attention of the Black Ajah – where did they learn such caution?
Elayne is flirting with Thom. Before she was merely annoying, but this really marks her move into “I can’t stand that character”
Elayne asks the Whitecloak if they have come to move the border – even a little common sense should tell her a merchant wouldn’t ask that kind of question. She seems to do it at least in part because she is annoyed that Nynaeve is too subservient.
They have been travelling nearly a month – this might give us some idea of the size of the land, asthey don’t seem to have moved particularly far.
- Admin
- #669
Chapter 9
Nynaeve is no longer thinking her prime aim is to protect the Two Rivers folk. She has even started to sympathise with Moiraine, though she is not happy about this.
Her reason for wanting to be Aes Sedai is now to learn more of Healing
Nynaeve still thinks Thom is an ordinary gleeman
Nynaeve thinks being concerned about Moghedien is cowardice – what is it with the women and thinking not being reckless is the same as being a coward?
Elayne mentions that sometimes when she dreams she has the feeling that someone is watching them – The dismissal of the idea that it is Moghedien seems foolish
Elayne knows that her flirting with Thom is extremely unwelcome, but can’t help herself
They blame the men for not bringing back vegetables, but it turns out that when they go to try and buy them, there are hardly any
Shemerin is the one who told Nynaeve of the signal. Nynaeve thinks she is fluttery – how did she ever get raised
A bit of excitement at the end of the chapter – Nynaeve and Elayne are drugged
Chapter 10
How did Mistress Macura actually find out about Forkroot?
Elayne is whining about how weak she is
Juilin intimidating Ronde is pretty amusing – cooking oil and salt. She is terrified of the salt
Nynaeve actually thanks Thom and Juilin, which surprises all of them
They decide to disguise themselves until they know why the order for Elayne’s capture was put out (this leads to a really dreary storyline)
Who is Avi spying for (I don’t think we ever find out)
Chapter 11
Suian learns that being a strong woman is well enough, but without power to back this up, she can’t just intimidate people
We learn the Aes Sedai who fled are gathering in Salidar
That’s pretty much all of note in this chapter
Chapter 12
Apparently the Whitecloaks are asking after Siuan – no idea why
Gareth is still following them
Another chapter where not much happens, and really, we could have lost the whole thing
Chapter 13
Nynaeve is behaving like a complete brat, because she is the one acting like the maid instead of Elayne
They encounter the menagarie
Nynaeve enters Tel’aran’rhiod
Nynaeve is no longer thinking her prime aim is to protect the Two Rivers folk. She has even started to sympathise with Moiraine, though she is not happy about this.
Her reason for wanting to be Aes Sedai is now to learn more of Healing
Nynaeve still thinks Thom is an ordinary gleeman
Nynaeve thinks being concerned about Moghedien is cowardice – what is it with the women and thinking not being reckless is the same as being a coward?
Elayne mentions that sometimes when she dreams she has the feeling that someone is watching them – The dismissal of the idea that it is Moghedien seems foolish
Elayne knows that her flirting with Thom is extremely unwelcome, but can’t help herself
They blame the men for not bringing back vegetables, but it turns out that when they go to try and buy them, there are hardly any
Shemerin is the one who told Nynaeve of the signal. Nynaeve thinks she is fluttery – how did she ever get raised
A bit of excitement at the end of the chapter – Nynaeve and Elayne are drugged
Chapter 10
How did Mistress Macura actually find out about Forkroot?
Elayne is whining about how weak she is
Juilin intimidating Ronde is pretty amusing – cooking oil and salt. She is terrified of the salt
Nynaeve actually thanks Thom and Juilin, which surprises all of them
They decide to disguise themselves until they know why the order for Elayne’s capture was put out (this leads to a really dreary storyline)
Who is Avi spying for (I don’t think we ever find out)
Chapter 11
Suian learns that being a strong woman is well enough, but without power to back this up, she can’t just intimidate people
We learn the Aes Sedai who fled are gathering in Salidar
That’s pretty much all of note in this chapter
Chapter 12
Apparently the Whitecloaks are asking after Siuan – no idea why
Gareth is still following them
Another chapter where not much happens, and really, we could have lost the whole thing
Chapter 13
Nynaeve is behaving like a complete brat, because she is the one acting like the maid instead of Elayne
They encounter the menagarie
Nynaeve enters Tel’aran’rhiod
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- #670
That is a good tactic, I can’t really do that anymore, it confuses me and I might mix things up lol. The other books any good? yeah I tried joining in on the re-read, but it wasn’t what I was looking for. I was more on the outlook for a place to analyze and discuss details you wouldn’t necessarily have noticed first time around..maybe someone would share the difference between their older self point of view versus their first time around, that sort of thing.. so here I am mainly talking to myself (like usual lol) until you came along
Bringing this over to re-read, so we can spoiler as necessary....
@Chiema Purvene'Caba , so speaking to things that I didn't really pick up on during earlier reads. Nynaeve recognizing the Yellow symbol hanging in the window. As I look at it now, it speaks to me that she (Nynaeve) did a lot of specialized study and relationship building while at the Tower. When I consider how briefly she was there and yet how deep some of the "secrets" that were shared (like coded messages); it's a bit amazing. Either the Tower really is a sieve of information or she as a person was able to develop some deep close connections relatively quickly. I think it was the later and so for me it makes her character much more mature and personable. (IOW, she couldn't be pissing off all the Aes Sedai if they were willing to share those level of secrets with a "mere" Accepted.). For me this really helps explain her successes in Salidar and later in the book dealing with other Aes Sedai.
As for the other books, The Silk Roads is a fascinating cultural and historical cross comparison. I've often studied various history (e.g. Roman, Persian, Turks, Islam, Christian, etc.) without necessarily putting them next to each other. This book does that and has revealed for me (fascinating tidbits, like the role of the Jewish community in the success of Islam). As for "Natives Discover America" its not really well written; but it does provide a nice (and not necessarily flattering) perspective of "White Man" culture.
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- #671
Chapter 14
Nynaeve thinks of Verin as “Verin Sedai”
Nyaeve meets Birgitte and asks to be released of the oath not to tell anyone of her. Birgitte refuses
She meets Egwene and Melaine and lies that she recognised forkroot
She thinksRand has to hold to sanity until the last battleand then that her priorities have changed and are no longer just protecting the Two Rivers Folks
She also thinks it is not proper that Moiraine follows Rand’s orders
Melaine says that Nynaeve should not have been tought and she basically throws a tantrum, insisting that she was able to teach herself to channel, so Tel’aran’rhiod shouldn’t be any different.
She is unreasonably stubborn here
Chapter 15
After Melaine leaves, she meets Egwene who tells her off. Nynaeve mistakenly thinks this is because she lost the highground over a lie
They learn that Elaida is Amyrlin and the Tower has split
Egwene says to her “If you fell headfirst into a pigsty, you’d try to convince everyone you did it on purpose”
When Egwene wakes, she is afraid she might see a Wise One, not so much out of fear of punishemnt, but that they would refuse to teach her any more
Egwene realises that Moiraine and the Wise Ones rarely shout, and resolves to speak more calmly in future
She asks Moiraine if she was eavesdropping on Rand, and Moiraine doesn’t deny it, only that she isn’t doingit for the Wise Ones
Moiraine says she started foing everything Rand tells her because she remembered how to control Saidar. But of course, Rand is not saidar
Chapter 16
Nynaeve is annoyed by Elayne’s tone and the fact that Elayne knows more of the world then she does
Nynaeve finds Elayne’s haughty manner offensive, though he realises it is how Lords and Ladies generally speak to common folk
Galad has joined the children of the light. Given their attitude to women who can channel, this seems a little incongruous – If Elayne was raised Aes Sedai for example, there is no way he would let any of the lay a hand on one. Even calling her a darkfriend would risk his ire
He is dissapointed when it is revealed Egwene is not with them and says Gawyn cares for her too
He offers to take them to Caemlyn, which seems a good offer
Elayne thinks that Galad might turn them over because it is illegal to be in Amadicia if someone has trained in the Tower. She is an idiot. There was zero chance that he would ever do anything to hurt her.
They decide to hide with Luca’s menagarie
Nynaeve thinks of Verin as “Verin Sedai”
Nyaeve meets Birgitte and asks to be released of the oath not to tell anyone of her. Birgitte refuses
She meets Egwene and Melaine and lies that she recognised forkroot
She thinksRand has to hold to sanity until the last battleand then that her priorities have changed and are no longer just protecting the Two Rivers Folks
She also thinks it is not proper that Moiraine follows Rand’s orders
Melaine says that Nynaeve should not have been tought and she basically throws a tantrum, insisting that she was able to teach herself to channel, so Tel’aran’rhiod shouldn’t be any different.
She is unreasonably stubborn here
Chapter 15
After Melaine leaves, she meets Egwene who tells her off. Nynaeve mistakenly thinks this is because she lost the highground over a lie
They learn that Elaida is Amyrlin and the Tower has split
Egwene says to her “If you fell headfirst into a pigsty, you’d try to convince everyone you did it on purpose”
When Egwene wakes, she is afraid she might see a Wise One, not so much out of fear of punishemnt, but that they would refuse to teach her any more
Egwene realises that Moiraine and the Wise Ones rarely shout, and resolves to speak more calmly in future
She asks Moiraine if she was eavesdropping on Rand, and Moiraine doesn’t deny it, only that she isn’t doingit for the Wise Ones
Moiraine says she started foing everything Rand tells her because she remembered how to control Saidar. But of course, Rand is not saidar
Chapter 16
Nynaeve is annoyed by Elayne’s tone and the fact that Elayne knows more of the world then she does
Nynaeve finds Elayne’s haughty manner offensive, though he realises it is how Lords and Ladies generally speak to common folk
Galad has joined the children of the light. Given their attitude to women who can channel, this seems a little incongruous – If Elayne was raised Aes Sedai for example, there is no way he would let any of the lay a hand on one. Even calling her a darkfriend would risk his ire
He is dissapointed when it is revealed Egwene is not with them and says Gawyn cares for her too
He offers to take them to Caemlyn, which seems a good offer
Elayne thinks that Galad might turn them over because it is illegal to be in Amadicia if someone has trained in the Tower. She is an idiot. There was zero chance that he would ever do anything to hurt her.
They decide to hide with Luca’s menagarie
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- #672
These chapters are actually quite important, despite little actually happening. It is a chapter where both Nynaeve and Egwene shows a lot fo personal growth Egwene takes a very important step towards being the Amyrlin, learning that shouting is not helpful if you want people to listen. I have used this tactic myself, remaining calm when people want you to be angry, and it is very satisfying
Nynaeve wonders why Egwene has suddenly started standing up to her more. This is not something new, she did this already on the way to Tear, the new thing is that she now does it more effectively. Nynaeve hates feeling ignorant. She is actually quite insecure, but she hides it by trying to bully people, and as Wisdom she was used to being in charge. She had a steep learning curve, certainly. At least she sees that there is more important things in the world than just protecting "her" people.
As for Galad, I understand why he would be attracted to the Whitecloaks. The Children of the Light has a very straightforward, black and white view of the world. No shades of grey. Galad likes things to be orderly, logical and straightforward. He always does the right thing, but what is the right thing? The Whitecloaks know that. (According to themselves). But I agree that Elayne should know that Galad would never turn them over to the authorities. IF he would have done that, he would have done so at once, not lying (gasp :eek ) to protect them.
Egwene takes a very important step towards being the Amyrlin, learning that shouting is not helpful if you want people to listen. I have used this tactic myself, remaining calm when people want you to be angry, and it is very satisfying Nynaeve wonders why Egwene has suddenly started standing up to her more. This is not something new, she did this already on the way to Tear, the new thing is that she now does it more effectively. Nynaeve hates feeling ignorant. She is actually quite insecure, but she hides it by trying to bully people, and as Wisdom she was used to being in charge. She had a steep learning curve, certainly. At least she sees that there is more important things in the world than just protecting "her" people.
As for Galad, I understand why he would be attracted to the Whitecloaks. The Children of the Light has a very straightforward, black and white view of the world. No shades of grey. Galad likes things to be orderly, logical and straightforward. He always does the right thing, but what is the right thing? The Whitecloaks know that. (According to themselves). But I agree that Elayne should know that Galad would never turn them over to the authorities. IF he would have done that, he would have done so at once, not lying (gasp :eek ) to protect them.
- Moderator
- #673
@Aduiavas Ida Sedia, I agree with your insights and observations. I found it fascinating to see this personal development in Nynaeve and Egwene. I also thought that the Galad / Elayne situation again demonstrated Elayne's strict (narrow-minded?) perspective of Galad. When she sees him "always doing the right"; she sees it in a way that is injurious to her and she likes to portray him always "in the worst possible light." I found this a brilliant observation by RJ. As humans, we sometimes make an initial judgment about persons and then it becomes a "mote in our eye" or a blind spot whenever we deal with that person. Imagine carrying that "mote" since childhood...it seems to have grown into a "beam" in Elayne's case.
- Admin
- #674
Chapter 17
Excuse me while I hit myself on the head to wake up from these menagerie chapters
Nynaeve thinks men make excuses to do exacty what they want – I’ll have to pay attention, but I think she is guilty of this
Nynaeve sniffs at Thom to signal her disaproval, but this just amuses him
Luca is not convinced that Elayne is nobility, though she does manage to shake his belief that they are just thieves
Clarine is decribed as a plump brown cheeked woman.
S’redit!!!!
Cerandin falls to her feet in front of Elayne. Later, she won’t even believe she is a lady
Chapter 18
In Liandrin’s mind, Elaida only thinks she is in control of the Tower – I assume this means she thinks the Black Ajah is the real power there.
Liandrin expects to have riches and power one day – again, we see Darkfriends expecting to be rewarded if the Dark One breaks free
Liandrin dislikes men
Liandrin only knew one of the twelve who left with her before they left the Tower
Liandrin thinks her weak form of compulsion is going to work on Moghedien. This is almost unbeleivably dumb. She doesn’t learn her lesson and plans on learning actual compulsion to try
They are all given tasks – We learn some of them, but most we have no idea where they go or what they do
Liandrin hates Wilders. She has a particular hatred of Nynaeve
Chapter 19
Tallanvor brings news of Rebellion in the Two Rivers
We see Gaebril with Elenia, Jarid, Arymilla, Nasin, Lir and Karind. All these later oppose Elayne. I don’t think they are Darkfriends, but they are clearly trying to take advantage of Morgase acting totally out of character and Gaebril being the one in charge
Morgase went to the Tower at 14, left to contest the Lion Throne at 16 and became queen at 18. She wasn’t daughter heir when she went to the Tower
Gaebril spends his nights with multiple women, one of them is brought into the palace in secret – I don’t think we ever learn who this is
Lini says men are only good for three things. Dancing is one of these three
Tallanvor asks morgase why she waited so long and she is angered by this, telling him a loyal man serves without question. Though she is trying to deflect, I think she does believe this.
We meet Breanne again, for the first time since she tried to bed Rand in the Great Hunt. Somehow, she has fallen for Lamgwin.
Morgae is convinced Bryne is a traitor, but I doubt she could articulate why
When Siuan was questioned, she claimed the Black Ajah was real, but Elaida would not hear of it – haven’t we previously seen here acknoweldge it? I think I noted at the time that she can’t make up her mind, or even settle on being uncertain.
Alviarin lets him go and he leaves to be with his followers
Chapter 20
Moiraine tells Rand to trust no one of the White Tower except herself, Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve
Rand has another memory of the Age of Legends, this time of the city of Mar Ruois
Mat disaproves that Taien didn’t have sentries, and they respond by calling him “my Lord”
Mat is now an expert rider
Couladin is causing trouble, and has abandoned Ji'e'toh, though I think the Aiel chiefs step back from this
Excuse me while I hit myself on the head to wake up from these menagerie chapters
Nynaeve thinks men make excuses to do exacty what they want – I’ll have to pay attention, but I think she is guilty of this
Nynaeve sniffs at Thom to signal her disaproval, but this just amuses him
Luca is not convinced that Elayne is nobility, though she does manage to shake his belief that they are just thieves
Clarine is decribed as a plump brown cheeked woman.
S’redit!!!!
Cerandin falls to her feet in front of Elayne. Later, she won’t even believe she is a lady
Chapter 18
In Liandrin’s mind, Elaida only thinks she is in control of the Tower – I assume this means she thinks the Black Ajah is the real power there.
Liandrin expects to have riches and power one day – again, we see Darkfriends expecting to be rewarded if the Dark One breaks free
Liandrin dislikes men
Liandrin only knew one of the twelve who left with her before they left the Tower
Liandrin thinks her weak form of compulsion is going to work on Moghedien. This is almost unbeleivably dumb. She doesn’t learn her lesson and plans on learning actual compulsion to try
They are all given tasks – We learn some of them, but most we have no idea where they go or what they do
Liandrin hates Wilders. She has a particular hatred of Nynaeve
Chapter 19
Tallanvor brings news of Rebellion in the Two Rivers
We see Gaebril with Elenia, Jarid, Arymilla, Nasin, Lir and Karind. All these later oppose Elayne. I don’t think they are Darkfriends, but they are clearly trying to take advantage of Morgase acting totally out of character and Gaebril being the one in charge
Morgase went to the Tower at 14, left to contest the Lion Throne at 16 and became queen at 18. She wasn’t daughter heir when she went to the Tower
Gaebril spends his nights with multiple women, one of them is brought into the palace in secret – I don’t think we ever learn who this is
Lini says men are only good for three things. Dancing is one of these three
Tallanvor asks morgase why she waited so long and she is angered by this, telling him a loyal man serves without question. Though she is trying to deflect, I think she does believe this.
We meet Breanne again, for the first time since she tried to bed Rand in the Great Hunt. Somehow, she has fallen for Lamgwin.
Morgae is convinced Bryne is a traitor, but I doubt she could articulate why
When Siuan was questioned, she claimed the Black Ajah was real, but Elaida would not hear of it – haven’t we previously seen here acknoweldge it? I think I noted at the time that she can’t make up her mind, or even settle on being uncertain.
Alviarin lets him go and he leaves to be with his followers
Chapter 20
Moiraine tells Rand to trust no one of the White Tower except herself, Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve
Rand has another memory of the Age of Legends, this time of the city of Mar Ruois
Mat disaproves that Taien didn’t have sentries, and they respond by calling him “my Lord”
Mat is now an expert rider
Couladin is causing trouble, and has abandoned Ji'e'toh, though I think the Aiel chiefs step back from this
- Moderator
- #675
Every time I read the POV of someone whom Padan Fain has talked to, I wonder if his taint has influenced them. The most obvious cases are Elaida and Masema, but also Niall and later Toram Riatin...
- Moderator
- #676
We also learn that Liandrin was a bit of a wilder as well before she went to the Tower. This seems a pretty common theme in RJ's writing that of disliking (or criticizing) in others something that is evident or a part of yourself all while being blind (purposely?) of your own self.
- Moderator
- #677
Is there anything Liandrin doesn't hate? :P
- Admin
- #678
Things finally feel as though they are getting going
Chapter 21
When he sees the bodies on the Wall, Rand thinks Egwene might be sent heaving She thinks the same about him.Neither have any real reasonfor such assumptions
Aviendha comments tht men always believe they are in control andwhen they learn they are not, they think they have failed, rather than learning a truth women already know. I doubt this is based on experience
Rand doesn’t need to touch an angreal to use it
Aviendha gives him Laman’s sword and makes a profit because he returns the gaudy scabard. She is very wary holding it, even though she now knows why Aiel don’t use swords
Rand and aviendha have a civil conversation, which she ends with “sleep well and wake”
New animals mentioned? – Bloodsnake, Gara, ridgecat
New plants? Segade, sweetroor, Morning drop
Chapter 22
Mat thinks of his memories, including once when he was taller than Rand
Mat’s earliest memory is from Maecine, about 4-500 years before the Trolloc wars and his last were from the rise of Artur Hawkwing.
He finally figured out that the medallion protects him from channeling
They are attacked by shadowspawn and darkfriends, shouting “Sammael and the golden bees”
Melindhra is impressed with his fighting ability
Rand and Aviendha kill a Drakhar,but he doesn’t realise and criticies her, gretly offending her. Egwene is disgusted with him for upsetting her
Rand reveals another Lews Therin memory. He and Asmodean try and work out why Sammael would tryand bait Rand into an attack
Chapter 23
Egwene is getting used to showing her legs, though she still takes solace in the fact she shows stockinged legs, not bare ones
We see Isendre, in black
Rand tells the Clan chiefs they are not allowed to randomly murder Cairhienin and that he will hang anyone who does, which they don’t like
Aviendha is reaching her limit of how much she can bear to be around Rand
The Black Eyes have sworn not to sleep beneath roof or tent until Couladin is dead
Sorilea promises to set Aviendha up with Feran, but he is already trying to attract Enaila’s interest
Chapter 24
Egwene thinks that Rand probably doesn’t look at his food as men are picky eaters. It’s at least possible that she got this knowledge from working in an Inn, but its far more likely it is another of those things people just make up so they can feel superior
Egwene thinks that Elayne ran off when she saw Galad because her and Nynaeve love adventure and that they need someone to settle them down
In Tel’aran’rhiod, Egwene sees Birgitte and Elayne talking
Latelle has attacked Nynaeve because she is taking the men’s attention from her or something. Nynaeve seems to have got the better of the exchange. Brawling like that is certainly something she would not have done in the Two Rivers
Chapter 25
People’s drems appear as sparkles in a darkness – Egwene compares them to fireflies. Rand and Moiraine’s are muted. She hasn’t learned to identify Elayne or Nynaeve’s yet
When Elayne says she can’t tell Egwene about Birgitte because it would violate confidences she had promised to hold, Egwene’s response “I hope one day you will trust me enough to tel me” is dissapointingly petulant. Apart from her attitude to Rand, she had being doing so well at being more mature.
Elayne says Egwene seems to have something of Rand’s attitude about her – Bizarrely, I am finding Elayne likeable in this chapter.
Moghedien tries to trap Egwene using Galad, but Egwene thinks she dreams of Gawyn more often, even though he had never made any feelings known to her. She escapes, and Moghedien switches for a trap with Gawyn – how does she create these so quickly?
Moghedien is obsessed with Nynaeve, though she seems to hate Birgitte as much, as Birgitte, under the name of Teadre foiled a plot of hers in the Age of Legends.
Chapter 26
Min sees Logain’s halo again – He is destined for glory such as few men have dreamed of
Apparently, in this world, a woman flirting at a man makes him unable to resist her in any ways. We’ve seen this mentioned before, but it is still annoying
She thinks of her vision that she would fall in love with Rand and have to share him with two other women
Logain seems to be about to drop dead. Min knows he won’t, but Siuan is not convinced – this goes along with her earlier belief that Min had helped keep a young novice from getting pregnant.
Carlina, Sheriam, Myrelle and Anaiya question them as Siuan and Leane look so different they are not convinced of their identiy
Faolain, surprisingly is with the rebels. She says she did not believe that Siuan helped Logain escape, which may be the reason, though as an Accepted, I don’t know howmuch choice she would have had.
Min has a viewing of Edesina – she will be captured by the Seanchan and escape
Chapter 27
Siuan and Leane both mention their eyes and ears networks
Siuan’s plan is to claim that Logain was set up as a false Dragon by the Red Ajah. In this chapter, she is confident that Min's viewing means he is going to live till he gets that flory
They were actually considering going back before learning this.
Leane suggests that they appoint their own Hall and raise their own Amyrlin
The council begin to consider Sheriam, but Siuan puts a stop to it by saying the woman chosen should have been out of the Tower so can’t be accused of taking sides. Leane suggests someone strong in the Power
Carlinya thinks the idea that Rand could be in the Aiel Waste is ridiculous – don’t know why, it is common knowledge the Aiel took the Stone, so going with them is entirely plausible.
Gareth has managed to catch up with them
They decide to bind him to them
Chapter 21
When he sees the bodies on the Wall, Rand thinks Egwene might be sent heaving She thinks the same about him.Neither have any real reasonfor such assumptions
Aviendha comments tht men always believe they are in control andwhen they learn they are not, they think they have failed, rather than learning a truth women already know. I doubt this is based on experience
Rand doesn’t need to touch an angreal to use it
Aviendha gives him Laman’s sword and makes a profit because he returns the gaudy scabard. She is very wary holding it, even though she now knows why Aiel don’t use swords
Rand and aviendha have a civil conversation, which she ends with “sleep well and wake”
New animals mentioned? – Bloodsnake, Gara, ridgecat
New plants? Segade, sweetroor, Morning drop
Chapter 22
Mat thinks of his memories, including once when he was taller than Rand
Mat’s earliest memory is from Maecine, about 4-500 years before the Trolloc wars and his last were from the rise of Artur Hawkwing.
He finally figured out that the medallion protects him from channeling
They are attacked by shadowspawn and darkfriends, shouting “Sammael and the golden bees”
Melindhra is impressed with his fighting ability
Rand and Aviendha kill a Drakhar,but he doesn’t realise and criticies her, gretly offending her. Egwene is disgusted with him for upsetting her
Rand reveals another Lews Therin memory. He and Asmodean try and work out why Sammael would tryand bait Rand into an attack
Chapter 23
Egwene is getting used to showing her legs, though she still takes solace in the fact she shows stockinged legs, not bare ones
We see Isendre, in black
Rand tells the Clan chiefs they are not allowed to randomly murder Cairhienin and that he will hang anyone who does, which they don’t like
Aviendha is reaching her limit of how much she can bear to be around Rand
The Black Eyes have sworn not to sleep beneath roof or tent until Couladin is dead
Sorilea promises to set Aviendha up with Feran, but he is already trying to attract Enaila’s interest
Chapter 24
Egwene thinks that Rand probably doesn’t look at his food as men are picky eaters. It’s at least possible that she got this knowledge from working in an Inn, but its far more likely it is another of those things people just make up so they can feel superior
Egwene thinks that Elayne ran off when she saw Galad because her and Nynaeve love adventure and that they need someone to settle them down
In Tel’aran’rhiod, Egwene sees Birgitte and Elayne talking
Latelle has attacked Nynaeve because she is taking the men’s attention from her or something. Nynaeve seems to have got the better of the exchange. Brawling like that is certainly something she would not have done in the Two Rivers
Chapter 25
People’s drems appear as sparkles in a darkness – Egwene compares them to fireflies. Rand and Moiraine’s are muted. She hasn’t learned to identify Elayne or Nynaeve’s yet
When Elayne says she can’t tell Egwene about Birgitte because it would violate confidences she had promised to hold, Egwene’s response “I hope one day you will trust me enough to tel me” is dissapointingly petulant. Apart from her attitude to Rand, she had being doing so well at being more mature.
Elayne says Egwene seems to have something of Rand’s attitude about her – Bizarrely, I am finding Elayne likeable in this chapter.
Moghedien tries to trap Egwene using Galad, but Egwene thinks she dreams of Gawyn more often, even though he had never made any feelings known to her. She escapes, and Moghedien switches for a trap with Gawyn – how does she create these so quickly?
Moghedien is obsessed with Nynaeve, though she seems to hate Birgitte as much, as Birgitte, under the name of Teadre foiled a plot of hers in the Age of Legends.
Chapter 26
Min sees Logain’s halo again – He is destined for glory such as few men have dreamed of
Apparently, in this world, a woman flirting at a man makes him unable to resist her in any ways. We’ve seen this mentioned before, but it is still annoying
She thinks of her vision that she would fall in love with Rand and have to share him with two other women
Logain seems to be about to drop dead. Min knows he won’t, but Siuan is not convinced – this goes along with her earlier belief that Min had helped keep a young novice from getting pregnant.
Carlina, Sheriam, Myrelle and Anaiya question them as Siuan and Leane look so different they are not convinced of their identiy
Faolain, surprisingly is with the rebels. She says she did not believe that Siuan helped Logain escape, which may be the reason, though as an Accepted, I don’t know howmuch choice she would have had.
Min has a viewing of Edesina – she will be captured by the Seanchan and escape
Chapter 27
Siuan and Leane both mention their eyes and ears networks
Siuan’s plan is to claim that Logain was set up as a false Dragon by the Red Ajah. In this chapter, she is confident that Min's viewing means he is going to live till he gets that flory
They were actually considering going back before learning this.
Leane suggests that they appoint their own Hall and raise their own Amyrlin
The council begin to consider Sheriam, but Siuan puts a stop to it by saying the woman chosen should have been out of the Tower so can’t be accused of taking sides. Leane suggests someone strong in the Power
Carlinya thinks the idea that Rand could be in the Aiel Waste is ridiculous – don’t know why, it is common knowledge the Aiel took the Stone, so going with them is entirely plausible.
Gareth has managed to catch up with them
They decide to bind him to them
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Stuff like this needs to be on Twitter as #WoToutofcontext lol
- Moderator
- #680
I've not come quite as far as you yet, but I've noticed that there is a concept of timezones, or at least that the sunset and night are different in Tarabon and the Waste. Elayne notes it when they are getting ready to meet Egwene. It is neat things like that that makes the world more believable 
I could do without the endless explanations about tel'aran'hriod though. Very detailed in.every.book. :tug
Elayne and Nynaeve travel with the two men in a carriage. I think this is a good thing for Elayne to experience, since she has never seen much of life as regular people. Sure, she lived as a novice, but even there she had clothes and food served, though she had chores.
Nynaeve also learned an important lesson with the forkroot incident. It gave her a humiliating experience, which will make her journey with the menagerie extra hard. (The whole menagerie storyline is perhaps the most boring part of the book though.) I also wonder, who else, besides the Yellow does Ronde and the pigeon guy send messages to?
Egwene learning that not shouting produces better results are somewhat dimished by the fact that she only did it to prevent Nynaeve from discovering that she was breaking the Wise One's rules. Nynaeve may not have told on her, but she would certainly hold it over her in every situation thereafter.
How would Elaida learn about Salidar so quickly?
And how did Sammael, or whoever it was, get Trollocs to the Jengai Pass?
I could do without the endless explanations about tel'aran'hriod though. Very detailed in.every.book. :tug
Elayne and Nynaeve travel with the two men in a carriage. I think this is a good thing for Elayne to experience, since she has never seen much of life as regular people. Sure, she lived as a novice, but even there she had clothes and food served, though she had chores.
Nynaeve also learned an important lesson with the forkroot incident. It gave her a humiliating experience, which will make her journey with the menagerie extra hard. (The whole menagerie storyline is perhaps the most boring part of the book though.) I also wonder, who else, besides the Yellow does Ronde and the pigeon guy send messages to?
Egwene learning that not shouting produces better results are somewhat dimished by the fact that she only did it to prevent Nynaeve from discovering that she was breaking the Wise One's rules. Nynaeve may not have told on her, but she would certainly hold it over her in every situation thereafter.
How would Elaida learn about Salidar so quickly?
And how did Sammael, or whoever it was, get Trollocs to the Jengai Pass?