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Oh and also, during the same scene, it's clearly described that Rand knows all of the DO's secrets and lies... Lies mean someone chose not to show the truth, which again suggests a sentient being.

Except the DO talked to people, and here's the description from the finale: Even if we assume that this is written from Rand's perspective, the fact he feels someone is trying to withdraw the power suggests someone with survival instincts understands that he's in danger. Also, even if we...

Yeah, except he does this while channeling the True Power, and by the description it sounds as though it's different from whatever it is he pulls into the pattern. Whatever you call it, throat or not, he grabs something and drags it into the pattern. But the True Power was always usable in the...

I just had a crazy thought... Why on earth do we assume there is no time outside the pattern? It's been stated by characters living in the pattern, but... They have been wrong before. The DO speaking about past battles against the dragon means he remembers them, which implies time. Maybe it's...

Morvath - That was my problem with the ending. It's not so much a matter of motivation, as much as evil. There are some things in the series which are clearly evil, and are regarded as such by all - Trollocs, Myrdrall, darkfrends. There was always a clear distinction between evil and bad. I...

Well I think the WoT did introduce the DO as a master of chaos in the sense that he always wanted the order of the pattern to be unraveled. I mentioned the Balefire before, and the fact he wanted it used as much as possible in the last battle. There was a sense that the DO wanted to change the...

Hmm... It doesn't answer everything, and it's going against intuition (you're the first person I've seen talking about it. Everyone just took it for granted that it was evil vs. good...), but it's interesting. I need to think on it a little. Also - while I still think the ending was anti...

Interesting. You're basically saying the end wasn't about good vs. evil at all.

But why do you claim chaos is what gives you the choice, and not the existence of evil? In other words, why does the fight between chaos and order gives choice, but not the fight between good and evil?

This is where you and I disagree. It's the same wheel because what changed it was the DO. The way I imagin it is this: you have a wheel. The wheel is, obviously, repeating. Now you have an outside force touching the wheel, creating a new event. If that event stops occuring, that doesn't mean...

Well, I think we already had this conversation in another thread :P About how the DO doesn't experience time, but he CAN experience different touchings of the pattern, and he can tell them apart. This is all getting rather sci-fi physics now. Can't remember which thread it was... About how the...

Eluial - we have no reason to think that the DO is different while touching the pattern and while not touching it. The book described how Rand catches the DO and dragging him into the pattern. This suggests a being of some sort. Are you saying that being disappears once the bore is sealed, and...

Muken - I think we should start by saying what exactly we mean when we say breaking the wheel, because most of your message makes no sense to what I'd call breaking the wheel. The way I see it, breaking the wheel means no more circular time. That's what it means. A change in the pattern which...

It violates nothing, as I've explained before. The theme of the wheel is balance and repetitive time. The DO, being outside the pattern, is in no way part of either repetitive time, nor is he supposed to be part of the balance. Hence, getting rid of him won't hurt anything. Also, even without...

OK, several things. Let's say the DO is chaos. This doesn't mean the pattern is "order." The pattern is balance, which is not the same as order. For example, theft is a tool by the pattern to redistribute money. There is no reason to think (except for the part in the end, which is my problem)...

Nothing. Rand met Elayn and her eyes were wrong. I need to find the description, but I think her eyes were much like those of the Asheman and Aes Sedai who were turned to the shadow using the 13 method.

All valid, except that in any series, TV show, etc., the bad guys CHOOSE to do bad things for whatever reason. This in no way connects the DO as the SOURCE of evil in the universe. I already said ages ago in this thread that the fact people MAKE choices in a series doesn't mean that choice onto...

WoW Don... You posted A LOT! So I've already talked about most of your 6 examples before. They only proove my problem with the ending, and that (I hope) would also answer your second messege about the ending not making sense - in each of your examples, evil is taking choice away. Turning someone...

I dunno why people keep saying that I'm upset. I'm not upset at all. I would just like for someone who thinks the ending wasn't detached from the series to give me an example of the importence of choice specifically to this series, or even the mention of choice as an integral part of the series...

I'm still waiting, BTW :look