Servant Of All System Beta Launch!!!

[Vallah al'Dera]

ok, this might seem silly, but the hubby and I replace all of our socks every other month, and the old socks that are still good, we give to the homeless people we see digging in the dumpster near our apartment, would that count?

 

[Siusane al'Cuyler]

I can do that one quick. yes.

warm feet for someone exposed to the elements, when you could have just thrown the socks away? (or sold them...maybe not much market for old socks! but I'm amazed what sells at yard sales sometimes.) sure, even small donations, of material things or money, count.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

I'm gonna point something else out: I'm ineligible to donate blood or be on a marrow registry because I have sex with other men. However, I'm not getting upset because other people are able to donate blood or be on a marrow registry, because it's for the good of all. I could be upset, and I would have a good foundation to stand upon, but it's not in the best interest of everyone, so I'm sucking up my personal feelings, because ultimately, it's doing good for everyone.

Just something to think about.

Also, I'm gonna give a shout-out about how impressed I am by the Outreach staff, because y'all are doing an amazing job addressing these concerns publicly, which is a great step for the administration. So kudos, y'all.

 

[Keisha al'Benn]

Thank you Ebona.

Jeffan if you can't give blood just let your hair grow and donate it....it is such a lovely shade!

 

[Jalen te'Kreg]

Several concerns of mine have already been brought up; just want to chime in that I appreciate how much thought and time obviously went into the design of this program, and especially appreciate its adherence to the principles of human rights and non-discrimination.

 

[Laralelle Susandrea]

So who decides? My concern, as written, is that it seems to be that you can't act/give according to your faith/beliefs because it doesn't jive with mine. I feel as Ben does - there's a flaw here. I totally get and support the intent - but I'm concerned at the limitations and the counter-discrimination? to those who do good works that are tied to (sharing) their faith. For some - everything they do is a reflection on their faith - it's how they share the Word/Glory/etc.


edit to add:
a box of food doesn't put gas in the food trucks that deliver food the Salvation Army gives at disaster sites. Monetary donations does.

How deeply will each group that is worked for/with be researched?

I think Yelenia says it well. What is good here is that no one is questioning the intent behind the rule, it's just quite open to interpretation.

 

[Laralelle Susandrea]

I absolutely do not consider attempts at converting people to a given religion to be worthy of Servant of All points under any circumstances. *shrug*

But even this is open to interpretation. If I go on a mission trip with my church to somewhere to help build...something, I wouldn't see that as trying to "convert" people to my religion. I see it as doing something nice for a community. Others may say that the church has an ulterior motive of conversion. Who's right?

 

[Xander Silverstar]

My reading regards to the religion issue :

If you read the statement closely it says activities that are SOLELY for the promotion of a religion cannot be counted". I think what is not being understood is the different between actions taken which are related to religion, such as the Salvation Army or St. Vincent De Paul and religious activities such as donating your time as a prayer leader at your local church.

The primary ends of the former is to provide aid or charity to someone who is needy. While the latter's primary end goal is religious by nature. The primary goal line in determining whether something is religious is as follows : Does the goal of the activity have a secular purpose? Is the primary effect to advance a particular religious view? And finally would recognizing this as an activity give the impression that the tower was favouring one religion

But even this is open to interpretation. If I go on a mission trip with my church to somewhere to help build...something, I wouldn't see that as trying to "convert" people to my religion. I see it as doing something nice for a community. Others may say that the church has an ulterior motive of conversion. Who's right?

I guess the question would be, what did you actually do when you were there. Were you actually building something, or did you spend the time promoting your religion. What was the goal of the trip? To build "something" or to promote religion?

At least this has been my impression

 

[Tree]

I think at this point it is fair to say that in relation to the religion-related questions and the language that has been used, the SAO Planning Committee will be taking a look at this over the next couple of week, and see if and how we can update this for the official launch in the new year. In fact, I am spilling the beans here- but we already are! Laraelle I appreciate that you understand what we are trying to say, and I am accepting that we will need to allow it to be readdressed in our updates, thank you for clarifying this part.

I also do want to say, that I do not think with the particular issue everyone can ever be made 100% happy. If there is a way... its a superhuman power that neither myself, nor anyone on the planning committee, posses.
That said, we will do our best to be clear, and not discriminatory ourselves while still maintaining that donations given to churches, congregations, temples, synagogs, parishes, etc. for their day-to-day operations and internal funds, or volunteering preformed for the advancement of a religious belief (sunday school/missionary work) will not be awarded as points in the Servant of All Program.

Ben, I want to address you concern separately. The sections regarding religious services that will not be included n the SOA Program and the section regarding services for discriminatory or hateful organizations are separate. The language of the Program is not saying

that religion is hateful, discriminatory, or that it "[limits] a human being’s freedom and rights."

I believe there may be some confusion in this regard as both issues are being discusses, simultaneously, in this very thread. Additionally, section 1.2 deals with the question of service that will not count and makes clear that organizations designed with the intent to limit other freedoms, or discriminate against others will not be counted toward SOA Achievements, this section 1.2 also includes the discussion on religious services and work done through religious organizations. I think one thing that I can say with certainty in regards to how we will be amending the program, is to separate this issues in the finalized text, clarifying that we are not making the implication that you are concerned about.

Finally, in the case that you bring up Laraelle, I do not see where this cannot be counted- at least in part. Atreyu has about the right of it, but let me elaborate on one way this sort of scenario could be mitigated. If for say you travel to Ghana with your church to build a potable water and sanitation system in a rural village and spend 70% of your time there doing that, and the other 30% of your time there doing missionary-related work, 70% of your time counts as points toward an SOA achievement. I hope this helps clarify things.

Thank you everyone for your feedback, please continue to comment and please also remember we are live for two categories and will be excited to accept your submissions!

 

[Kitan Tataru]

The following is my opinion, it's not official since I'm not involved in SOAC, but I think the SOAC might find it useful:

Perhaps it would help to define an organization as discriminatory and, thus, not counting for SOA, by looking at the US Federal non-discrimination laws, where employers are not allowed to discriminate based on:

Age, Race, Sex, National Origin, Religion, Disability, Pregnancy, Medical Condition, Marital Status, Sexual Orientation

(though I think sexual orientation is probably not a Federal law, it's probably just the law in whatever state I grabbed this description from - but I think we should include it in SOA)

So if a group says "We'll give you help, as long as you're not old/hispanic/Christian/deaf/pregnant/sick/married/gay" then it wouldn't count for SOA. Meanwhile if a group helps people based on HAVING a disability (like the Brain Injury Association of America helping people who have brain injuries), that wouldn't count as discrimination because that just shows they're serving a particular community that has a very specific need.

And that's my opinion of maybe how this could be handled.

Also, Jeffan, even though you can't give blood/marrow, if you volunteered your time/donated to the American Red Cross or another organization that takes blood/whatnot, you'd still get credit for Giving Of Your Body...I think? So you could still get points for that category.

 

[Bao the Wyld]

I think Pip actually has somewhat of a legitimate point. If I was to donate part of my body, I wouldn't be doing it because of some internet recognition. I don't volunteer because Tar Valon will give me a gold merit for volunteering. I can understand if TV accepted donations for such and such charity, but this whole idea of recognizing people for something that they should be doing out of the goodness of their hearts doesn't sit well with me. When I see posts asking if donating old-used socks to hobos counts towards a merit, seriously, my heart breaks a little. This site used to be so much grander than what it has become.

 

[Laralelle Susandrea]

Tree, first off, you are awesome

Second, I think there may be multiple definitions of the term missionaries. I grew up hearing missionaries defined as anyone who leaves there home to go and "do good" while being financially supported by the church. This could mean living in a foreign country for multiple years and preaching etc., or it could mean leaving for a week to pass out shoes in a needy place. I think maybe you all are using the term to mean it the way the LDS church uses it, which is (as far as I understand it) that people who leave their homes and go door to door to spread the word of God. I may be way off base here in one or more things, but this just dawned on me.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

This site used to be so much grander than what it has become.

Mhmm.

 

[Kitan Tataru]

This site used to be so much grander than what it has become.

I don't think SOA is demeaning the site or making it less than what it was. This is an effort to encourage people to perform community service. The details are still being worked out. The great thing about this site is we see what works and what doesn't, then keep what works and fix or get rid of what doesn't work. We evolve. SOA will evolve. If, in the long run, it turns out SOA isn't helping the community, then it may be changed or gotten rid of. But it'll take time to work out the kinks to figure that out.

How does everyone feel about this situation:

Until last year, my local chapter of the American Red Cross had a rewards program. Every time you donated blood, if you reported it on the rewards website (and they would verify the donation), then you got rewards points to use at Best Buy (an American electronics/entertainment store). Those points could be accumulated into gift certificates. My husband built up enough points for a $50 gift certificate, and by using that certificate he ended up only paying $10 cash when he pre-ordered Diablo III.

Does that incentive program cheapen the blood donation? Does that program make it so that blood donation isn't community service?

Before I moved to Salt Lake City, I used to give blood in Las Vegas at a certain time each year, and I'd get a voucher for 2 free tickets to Penn & Teller's show at the Rio. The first time I used one of those vouchers, the 2 seats I got were each worth over $100. Does that mean that when I gave blood in Las Vegas it wasn't an act of philanthropy?

I'd say the rewards of the SOA program are much less significant than the Best Buy points program or free tickets to a critically acclaimed Las Vegas show.

EDIT: Also, if philanthropy shouldn't be recognized socially, why do we have a Philanthropist of the Year award? Why do we have an Unsung Servant award?

 

[Zashara Sho'am]

Points will not be awarded for work or organizations which attempt to limit a human being’s freedom and rights. (Reference Universal Declaration of Human Rights here.) Please read on for additional details:

Spoiler

Service for organizations which limit their focus to a particular group is acceptable provided that, within the organization’s focus, they strive to help everyone, without refusing service on the basis of race, language, religion, sexual orientation, political opinion, academic achievements, mental or physical disability, or other status. Service done through a religious organization, such as feeding the homeless, may receive points, although service done purely to further a religious mission, such as teaching Sunday school, will not.

I honestly think the wording is what is making this a problem. By discussing service through a religious organization as "additional details" of the original statement, it does read that religious organizations "attempt to limit a human being’s freedom and rights." That was probably not the intent, but by talking about hate groups and religious organizations in the same section, there's legitimate grounds for concern.

 

[Xander Silverstar]

I think Pip actually has somewhat of a legitimate point. If I was to donate part of my body, I wouldn't be doing it because of some internet recognition. I don't volunteer because Tar Valon will give me a gold merit for volunteering. I can understand if TV accepted donations for such and such charity, but this whole idea of recognizing people for something that they should be doing out of the goodness of their hearts doesn't sit well with me. When I see posts asking if donating old-used socks to hobos counts towards a merit, seriously, my heart breaks a little. This site used to be so much grander than what it has become.

You do realize we have been rewarding people for philanthropic endeavours for a while now right? I understand that you personally feel that recognition however that doesn't really give reason for people who want recognition to not receive it, as you are completely free to not report it. Also, the SoA doesn't lead to Merit(tm) badges, it's a separate system.

 

[Siusane al'Cuyler]

I think Pip actually has somewhat of a legitimate point. If I was to donate part of my body, I wouldn't be doing it because of some internet recognition. I don't volunteer because Tar Valon will give me a gold merit for volunteering. I can understand if TV accepted donations for such and such charity, but this whole idea of recognizing people for something that they should be doing out of the goodness of their hearts doesn't sit well with me. When I see posts asking if donating old-used socks to hobos counts towards a merit, seriously, my heart breaks a little. This site used to be so much grander than what it has become.

quick thought on that: (more on other things later!) there may be people here coming from all different points on a spectrum of service. I know some people (irl) for whom service is a natural and huge part of their lives. and yes, they do it because they believe it is right, not for recognition. I know others whose primary focus is, well, NOT other people at all. maybe they would volunteer given the right incentive, and hey, someone else's life gets made better. that's a good thing. and sometimes the volunteer's life is changed as well, and they begin to want to serve more. for some people, maybe they want to help others, but don't have many resources, or don't even know where to start. but they can get ideas from what other people do.

I'm sure the program will evolve over time. but to me it makes sense that there be *something* that has some kind of focus on service, instead of nothing.

 

[Ben al'Den]

Ben, I want to address you concern separately. The sections regarding religious services that will not be included n the SOA Program and the section regarding services for discriminatory or hateful organizations are separate. The language of the Program is not saying I believe there may be some confusion in this regard as both issues are being discusses, simultaneously, in this very thread. Additionally, section 1.2 deals with the question of service that will not count and makes clear that organizations designed with the intent to limit other freedoms, or discriminate against others will not be counted toward SOA Achievements, this section 1.2 also includes the discussion on religious services and work done through religious organizations. I think one thing that I can say with certainty in regards to how we will be amending the program, is to separate this issues in the finalized text, clarifying that we are not making the implication that you are concerned about.

Thanks, Tree. Separating those two out will solve my concern.

 

[Tree]

Exceptional Ben. Thanks for reinforcing that we’re on the right direction.

Azrael, I am sorry you feel that way and while I can concur that the site has changed dramatically over the years, I don’t think this is cheapening it. We used to be a smaller community, I even felt that I got to know a greater percentage of our members. As the years have rolled on we’ve grown. I don’t get to know everyone, nobody does. With this growth, we’ve had to evolve and I think that rather than cheapening anything the SOA Program reflects the site and community transforming. We are aiming to recognize members as a means of encouraging more service, not solely as a means to offer bragging rights or Achievements. These are acts of service that are based out of people acting from the goodness of their hearts, yes. You can report them, you can chose not to participate and not report them. There are no rewards to members, elevated membership status included, for participating, it is not required. Its just something we want to do, and can do, to thank our members and highlight their actions. Plus, be recognizing these actions, maybe we can get to know one another more and tighten our community through further shared interests. Its all part of growing as an organization and I for one am excited to see where things are going.

 

[Bao the Wyld]

I still have reservations, but I can see that point of view Siusane.

Philanthropist and Unsung Servant are recognitions decided by the Amyrlin which is completely different than a system of reporting.

*Edit* I guess I also misunderstood the post, I thought this was going towards the merit system because it had the gold/silver/bronze part.