News from the Board of Directors.

[Meirah Zaïde]

And mocking (directly or indirectly) people who voice those concerns, or the concerns themselves as ridiculous or implying that those concerns "don't matter" does nothing to allay those concerns, either. Fortunately, the admins themselves are not doing that.

Thanks for the update, Riley.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

As a side tangent - and I'm not even sure if this matters, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway - I've always hated how severe the lines are between men and women at the Tower. The only reason that it's stayed this way so long is because women are the ones in charge of things in The Wheel of Time. Do you really think that if the men were the Aes Sedai and the women caused the breaking, and we had all male administrators, that the women wouldn't be upset by that fact? If you do, then I'm just gonna say now that you're wrong.

I've always felt that imbalance at the Tower. There are fewer men at this site because there's only one clear role for guys in The Wheel of Time, and only one path that they can take here at the Tower - to become a Gaidin. The women get the "cool" role, they get to be magic-users and influence major things. The men get to be their pets, trained to serve them and follow their every whim. It's no wonder that the female to male ratio is 2:1 at the Tower. Now, I'm not suggesting that we open up the role of Asha'man, although I'm certain that would up our male membership numbers considerably, but it is something to think about.

As an extension of there being twice as many women as men, as well as the fact that the women who are interested in The Wheel of Time tend to be strong-minded individuals, most of our Administration is made up of women. There is one male Officer out of four, and one male Executive out of eight. In the administrator positions that both genders are eligible to apply for, there are three men out of ten positions. No matter how you skew the numbers, there are always at least twice as many women in admin+ level positions at the Tower. Now, is this the fault of the men? I can't really see how. But it's also not the fault of the women. It's just how it is.

With the role of the Gaidin in The Wheel of Time being servile in nature, does that mean that the Gaidin on this site have similar natures, and therefore don't want to be in administrative positions? It could be debated, but I doubt that to be true. I feel like the men who joined this site did so because they truly loved the series, and wanted to be part of a community in some way, and the only way that they could do that and feel equal to the fully-ranked Aes Sedai was to become Gaidin, which is probably a less-than-desirable role, as I'm sure that at least a portion of them wanted to be Asha'man, even when the site was first started in 2001.

This might be because I identify as gay (although I'm assuming it's not) but the lines between men and women have always been pretty blurred to me in my own life. The thing that I really hate in society, and view as the roots of most of our cultural problems, are the idea of typical gender roles. If they didn't exist, we wouldn't have many of the problems that we have today. It's really the only thing that I don't like about The Wheel of Time - how clear-cut the lines are. However, seeing that we're not part of Randland, I feel like we should be able to evolve from that society that's presented to us in the first few books (and what our site is based off of).

That's really the reason that I find all of this so silly. It seems like a few particular women viewed it as their right as an Aes Sedai of this site to have fora that only they could see, that only they should have access to, and the fact that a man would possibly have access throws them in such a tizzy that they can't control themselves. Honestly, I find it a little sad. It's a byproduct of real-life society that women are treated unequally to men, and a byproduct of the Tower that they're so loved and empowered. Do I want to take that away from them? Of course not. But I do think that it's caused some negative side-effects, and we're seeing them here.

In the long run, what does it matter if three men have access to your Chambers or the Aes Sedai forum? This is an internet-based community, and you should be able to trust all Senior Members who have proven their dedication to the site equally. There's a bond created upon becoming a Senior Member, as silly as it sounds, and there's a level of trust that goes along with it. The fact that you're singling out the men of the site is the reason that I'm raising the issues of sexism, because to me, they're pretty evident.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

That's really the reason that I find all of this so silly. It seems like a few particular women viewed it as their right as an Aes Sedai of this site to have fora that only they could see, that only they should have access to, and the fact that a man would possibly have access throws them in such a tizzy that they can't control themselves.

As I am the primary female arguing in this case, I'll assume I'm the one who can't control herself and am in a tizzy. Trust me, you have not seen me in anything but control in this conversation.

I'll be blunt. It has nothing to do with being Aes Sedai and feeling entitled to a private forum. There are certain kinds of conversations that women can have with each other and would be uncomfortable with men reading.

Take away that forum, and I don't care. I don't recall ever posting in there, actually. Nevertheless, the sudden revelation (to me, anyway) of the fact that it is not as private as I thought is of concern.

And Jeffy, you pretty much jump-started the "conversation" by trivializing the feelings of a fellow senior member. How does that engender "trust" and a "bond"?

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, though.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

I wasn't referring to you specifically at all, Emerylde - you're not the only woman posting in this thread. For every one person I see posting in this thread, I assume five others share their opinions and are just keeping quiet about it.

I'll be blunt. It has nothing to do with being Aes Sedai and feeling entitled to a private forum. There are certain kinds of conversations that women can have with each other and would be uncomfortable with men reading.

Do you not think that there are some things that men would rather discuss in a woman-free zone? If anything, the men on this site have more things to be upset about, if you look at the facts and the numbers I posted. But the men simply deal with it, because that's how it's always been, and because it's not hurting anyone. I don't understand why that's so difficult for other people to do.

It still baffles me that you would rather there be no forum instead of a forum that only women can post in, but three highly-respected members of our community, that happen to be male, can read. If you turned that into a real-world scenario and flipped the genders around, there would be thousands upon thousands of women in an absolute outrage, and it's because of that one thing that I have difficulty your point of view at all in this situation.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

No, I said that I think there should be a forum the guys can post in without women peeking in, too. It's only fair. I think that side got lost in the discussion.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

I'll be blunt. It has nothing to do with being Aes Sedai and feeling entitled to a private forum. There are certain kinds of conversations that women can have with each other and would be uncomfortable with men reading.

Take away that forum, and I don't care. I don't recall ever posting in there, actually. Nevertheless, the sudden revelation (to me, anyway) of the fact that it is not as private as I thought is of concern.

Sorry, it seemed pretty clear to me that you were talking about the Aes Sedai forum. *shrugs*

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

So that you're aware.... For a variety of reasons, the Board is revisiting this question, and we are working on what will be a reasonable direction in this area. We have found that there are a great number of facets to this, and it's not a simple, cut and dried issue.

It'll make me incredibly sad if you do find that men shouldn't have read-only access to the forums. It'd be setting the Tower back at least a year in hopes of gender equality. (And yeah, I'm being serious.)

 

[Carlina Selandrin]

[/quote] "Koyn" is the WoT equivalent of "Prime", meaning "The First Amyrlin". We loved it. Our first point of business last night was to gift that title to Eleyan, in recognition of her blood sweat and tears to make our community what it is today.[/quote]

I love the name! It's amazing!

 

[Barmacral Tigana]

I'll be blunt. It has nothing to do with being Aes Sedai and feeling entitled to a private forum. There are certain kinds of conversations that women can have with each other and would be uncomfortable with men reading.

Then have the conversation in an instant messenger, or by email, or better yet, in person since IM and email aren't secure and any old hacker or government person (who could very well be male) could easily read those. But don't have it on tarvalon because this site as I understand it has long had and in the future always will have a small group of people of both genders who can read all of the boards, regardless of whom the board is targetted for. At least on this site (as opposed to email or IM) you know exactly which males can see your posts and can make a judgement call on whether you trust them to not read the topic. If you don't feel you can trust them, then don't have those conversations here.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Jeffy, sorry I wasn't clearer about that sooner.

Barmacral, it is much more difficult to carry on a group conversation or thread via email or pm. That is a large part.of what makes fora such an attractive option for so many groups around the world online. I understand that it is being made clear that basically no forum is private, and all conversations will have to be more carefully considered because of it. This does make me a little sad. I know of several people who are less likely to be open in certain areas now that they are aware of the possibility of someone of the opposite gender peeking in.

I truly thought that both Aes Sedai and Gaidin each had at least one forum that was strictly for them. My mistake.

 

[Barmacral Tigana]

And now you have all the facts. Doesn't it make you feel better knowing that there have been males entrusted to see all the forums, but not read the threads within for years, and that they have not betrayed that trust? I'm not sure what you are worried about here. The board of directors are selected with this exact thing in mind. That they will not betray the trust of their members.

 

[Fee Nicoin]

As the person who deals with the new members joining this site I am uncomfortable with the tone of this thread. I wouldn't want new members and potential new members being put off by a discussion that perhaps should take place in a different forum or shockeroonie by emailing board@tarvalon.net

I am going to lock this until someone further up the chain comes along.

Feel free to flame me via pm, it's empty and needs some loving!

 

[Vivianna L'antreau]

Over the years there have always been both men and women who have had universal access on our boards (of all incarnations). Once upon a time James Gaidin had access because he built the boards and held our hosting. Valorian Gaidin has served as the designer of our boards ever since we left Ezboards and it requires admin access to do that. Back before the job description of the Keeper changed and the department of membership was split between she and the Master at Arms (Val Gaidin at the time), they both had universal access in order to perform their positions.

These days, here is the list of who currently has universal viewing:

Amyrlin Seat - Vivianna
Keeper of the Chronicles - Leora
Director of Membership - Serenla
Director of Moderators - Karassa
Director of Technology - Erin
Archivist (CRO) - Dralyn
Koyn Amyrlin - Eleyan

Now of those, it is necessary for the Amyrlin, Keeper, and Director of Membership to keep in regular contact so to speak with all of our forums. The directors of Moderators and Technology have the ability to see all forums, but are not allowed to look into any others aside from those they are otherwise eligible to participate in. The Archivist also only goes into private forums when there is a thread that has been flagged to be archived for our records. A reminder that these permissions are position based and can be held at any time by a man or a woman.

In addition, 3 individuals have back end admin access but can only see their Ajah/Company forums on the boards themselves. They could change that access, but don't because it's not part of their job descriptions and because they are trustworthy individuals. These people are Valorian Gaidin, Defen Gaidin as Master of the Watch, and the Director of Marketing Kytheria Sedai.

I totally agree with those who suggested having this information in a thread somewhere - thank you for that! We'll be adding it to the "FAQ" thread in Ask the White Tower as well as the "People to know-Guide for new Members" thread in the same forum.

As of right now the board of directors have said that they are discussing this decision and permissions have not been changed (other than adding both Jaim Gaidin and Caerwyn Gaidin to the administrative forums) and they'll advise once they know what the final call will be.


I think the focus of this thread has gone beyond even permissions of the board so thank you Mayor Feon for locking it temporarily to give us some breathing room I'll unlock it later this afternoon so people can continue to comment if they please, but lets let the ongoing discussion drop for now since the original decision is already being reopened by the Board of Directors.

Incidentally, I adore the title of Koyn Amyrlin - it's unique and fitting and lovely

Thank you everyone :grouphug and as always if you have any questions or concerns please let me or our Keeper know at keeper@tarvalon.net and amyrlin@tarvalon.net

 

[Drake O' Neeus]

I thought it was common knowledge high level admins had universal access to all boards. That's something to be taken away from this, at least.

 

[Niere al'Aman]

Privacy ? On the internet?

:rofl

 

[Vallah al'Dera]

who dont you just give the male members access to everything except the AS forum, and the female members access to everything except the Gaidin forum. Then if anything goes down in AS that needs the attention of the board, the female members can give the male members the details they need with out the male members getting access to a forum that would make several women uncomfortable (and visa versa)



Kinda seems like the logical thing to do after the heated discussion it started.

 

[Aria Kakarot]

I am glad to hear that the Board is revisting this decision. :clap

And not for sexist reasons. :P

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Moving on....

I am very pleased that Eleyan has a title to carry with her. It is the least she deserves for her amazing work in developing this community.

Congrats to Caerwyn Gaidin and Jaim Gaidin on your new positions!

So many people put so much hard work into making this site the special place that it is, it feels like we can hardly do enough to thank them all.

I personally am incredibly grateful to everyone who puts so much time and energy into this site. You folks are truly amazing. :clap

 

[Zashara Sho'am]

who dont you just give the male members access to everything except the AS forum, and the female members access to everything except the Gaidin forum. Then if anything goes down in AS that needs the attention of the board, the female members can give the male members the details they need with out the male members getting access to a forum that would make several women uncomfortable (and visa versa)



Kinda seems like the logical thing to do after the heated discussion it started.

I believe the concern was over Chambers. </clarification>

 

[Aran Cherubim]

Crap. I'm torn on the issue; on the one hand we have practicality (ie. each board member would effectively need a gender-opposite deputy to aid them in case their attention was required "on the wrong side of the Tower" as it were) and the idea that an appointed official's role overrules his or her gender affiliation (ie. the Prime Minister isn't first and foremost a male or female, but an individual elected by all adult citizens of the state, she/he is not suddenly going to giggle and start peeking into the Parliament's ladies'/men's room, even though the PM probably has suppport in some kind of law if they were to do their research well.) On the other hand, we have the desire to accommodate all members as best we can, and to provide for them a safe and comfortable environment. Personally, I've never really censored myself based on the genders present (I have censored myself based on the religious convictions, the political beliefs and the ages of people present though - although that is effectively just following the rules.) but I can't really expect others to think of the forum and use it exactly like I do, especially when some people are used to their "private abodes" as it were. I am of course a citizen, and have always been so, so privacy in fora has never even been a concern, simply because there's not even been the illusion of it.

Part of me wants to know exactly what matters are so private and confidential that they should be hidden from appointed officials of the people who run the site (or rather, the actual people who run the site, I'm a bit mixed up on who's who nowadays), and if they really should be posted here at all, given their apparent highly intimate nature - and instead be relegated to a different form of communication that the people conversing have more control over themselves, as opposed to a forum - which is by its very definition an open area.

While some of the tongue-in-cheek (that's what she said) posts above are very much my humour, I still think it's important that we keep it fairly level here, so that people with concerns don't feel bullied into silence or otherwise alienated from the very site they've grown to trust so much. And this is only partially because Ariana Sedai's avvy terrifies me. look)

It is true, that we as males are effectively a minority, and the gender-segregation and the tendential matriarchy (as opposed to institutionalized matriarchy - which was essentially abolished during the transition to the new Amyrlin Seat) we've imported from the Wheel of Time series do somewhat restrict us in some areas. I agree with Jeffy Gaidin that some social conventions observable on the site probably can be traced back to this order, although I'm not going to make gross generalizations here. I also agree with him that "different, but equal" is a social order that tends to mutate into "different and equal, although some are more equal than others, you filthy [insert slur], get back in mines", but this might be a bit peripheral to the discussion at hand. Still, the idea of a virtual Tower is integral to the community's history and vision, and I'm loathe to try and force through some revolution. Cross-gender usergroups like the old guilds did to some degree provide a bridge over those gaps, although due to the activity level in some of the guilds I'm not seeing them reinstated in the same manner. It's obvious that the Companies and Ajahs* carry a lot more weight to their members as fraternities and sororities and sub-communities in general.

Many words, much woffle. Not sure I really got anywhere with this.