queering saidin/saidar?

[Tobyas Cuendrelle]

how would it be done

Has anyone thought about an alternate version of the system where the Power is divided in a different way, or in a blurrier way? and i mean this could also be an age and world where one half isn't corrupted, bc that presents some complications

Vecause coming back to the series post-queer-epiphany, this is the one thing im thinking every time rj is like The Male Half Of The Source [or just.. says all his lovely little sayings that imply biological essentialism ✨]
And it's fascinating, i mean im sure there's potential for making the whole dynamic a little more complicated and interesting.. or using it to explore certain themes.

a channeler discovers they're trans and instantly starts going mad 😂😂 AMAC assigned male at channeling

Continued thoughts -
I mean ok there's like, yin/yang, right?
But, at least in my position in Lord of Chaos, the actual working of saidin and saidar doesn't seem to be that different. other than that... they insist it IS different, and like, they accomplish similar things with different weavings and different styles. and also the whole thing about, oh girls have to Embrace the Source and be a Flower 😊😊 and men have to Fight for Control grrrr 🔥🔥

And also! yin/yang is a symbolic category that is sooo abstract and fundamental and elemental, and does not map onto male and female bodied humans? I mean you don't see Egwene and Nynaeve and Aviendha surrendering and embracing in their personal lives, any more than Rand 😂
So you COULD have the Power manifest as a gentler more creative side, and a wild and destructive side - or order and chaos - or another dichotomy. And maybe people only have an affinity for one of these, or only specialise in one. But let's be real like. 90% of the female WoT characters would be into the chaotic fighting one 😂😂

 

[Tobyas Cuendrelle]

With the One Power being a spiritual concept, especially considering that Yin Yang influence, I believe that a transgender person would channel in accordance with their true gender and not the sex they were born with.

@Nadezhda al'Lanahrin 's comment on the previous thread

Yeahh
That's another option - that saidin/saidar affinity is a biological thing like other indicators of biological sex. and intersex people just have superpowers or something And so if randland progressively became Woke lol, the Power could start to be treated like those other aspects of human bodies - where it eventually becomes another flexible element of gender expression, and not this binary that corresponds precisely to sexual dimorphism

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

@Nadezhda al'Lanahrin 's comment on the previous thread

Yeahh
That's another option - that saidin/saidar affinity is a biological thing like other indicators of biological sex. and intersex people just have superpowers or something And so if randland progressively became Woke lol, the Power could start to be treated like those other aspects of human bodies - where it eventually becomes another flexible element of gender expression, and not this binary that corresponds precisely to sexual dimorphism

I entirely agree. The way that the One Power is described in the books could be done that way. And with intersex people, non-binary, and gender non-conforming people, etc., they can be given special talents. Such as with Min Farshaw and Perrin Aybara.

 

[Megana Vallentin]

I don't want to minimize the existence of trans and other people in decades past, but I think as a whole we have the terminology and a widespread reach (thanks internet) that didn't exist when these books were being written, at least initially. It would be really fascinating to see how RJ would handle those things if he was just starting out today. If nothing else, even if he started with a simple male/female breakdown, you know he'd get all of one book out there before people starting asking all sorts of questions about these scenarios. So many fascinating possibilities!

 

[Satara al'Caelahn]

Since this is in the forum it's in, I'm going to spoiler this, but as far as I'm aware, use of either saidin or saidar is tied to, essentially, the gender of someone's soul or their spirit, because we see that when Aran'gar gets brought back as Halima in later books.

I've always wanted to see a trans character in the Wheel of Time, though even that would present issues with their power outing them. Or someone who's nonbinary and what power they'd channel because there's nothing canon that really bridges that binary gap, so what would happen? Could they choose? Channel both? Discover an entirely different power?

We'll never get the answers, but it's fun to ponder.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

Since this is in the forum it's in, I'm going to spoiler this, but as far as I'm aware, use of either saidin or saidar is tied to, essentially, the gender of someone's soul or their spirit, because we see that when Aran'gar gets brought back as Halima in later books.

I've always wanted to see a trans character in the Wheel of Time, though even that would present issues with their power outing them. Or someone who's nonbinary and what power they'd channel because there's nothing canon that really bridges that binary gap, so what would happen? Could they choose? Channel both? Discover an entirely different power?

We'll never get the answers, but it's fun to ponder.

I entirely agree with what you spoilered and that's why I am confident in my conclusion, as well. From what I remember, being LGBTQIA+ was not something that was taboo in The Wheel of Time. So, I am not sure that outing would have the same consequences as it would in the real world. In fact, being able to channel saidar or saidin could help with gender dysphoria.

 

[Amylia Lerato]

I would have loved a trans-woman who everyone expected to go mad on basis of her biological sex just being an awesome aes-sedai. It would have been such an interesting storyline even better if she became a red. Someone please write this fanfic.
I think the time that wot was written in means that it missed out on some beautiful complexities of the gender spectrum being normalized with vocab and the like.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

I would have loved a trans-woman who everyone expected to go mad on basis of her biological sex just being an awesome aes-sedai. It would have been such an interesting storyline even better if she became a red. Someone please write this fanfic.
I think the time that wot was written in means that it missed out on some beautiful complexities of the gender spectrum being normalized with vocab and the like.

I agree and I don’t really fault Jordan for it either.

 

[Satara al'Caelahn]

In fact, being able to channel saidar or saidin could help with gender dysphoria.

Absolutely. I can only imagine how validating that would be to channel the power that corrosponds with your gender identity.

I would have loved a trans-woman who everyone expected to go mad on basis of her biological sex just being an awesome aes-sedai. It would have been such an interesting storyline even better if she became a red. Someone please write this fanfic.

Don't tempt me.

Actually, we have the written roleplay guild, maybe I'll make that concept into a character. 🤔

 

[Amylia Lerato]

I agree and I don’t really fault Jordan for it either.

It's more disappointing that when the books were written that wasn't really an option to consider. It's more of a 'how disappointing that this couldnt happen'

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

It's more disappointing that when the books were written that wasn't really an option to consider. It's more of a 'how disappointing that this couldnt happen'

Yeah. I think that even if Jordan had wanted to include it, the publisher may not have allowed it or a lot of his audience would have turned their backs on the series.

 

[Leira Galene]

I would have loved a trans-woman who everyone expected to go mad on basis of her biological sex just being an awesome aes-sedai. It would have been such an interesting storyline even better if she became a red. Someone please write this fanfic.
I think the time that wot was written in means that it missed out on some beautiful complexities of the gender spectrum being normalized with vocab and the like.

Oh that could be a fantastic story! I like it

 

[Megana Vallentin]

Actually, we have the written roleplay guild, maybe I'll make that concept into a character. 🤔

Do eet do eet!

 

[Satara al'Caelahn]

Do eet do eet!

I am. It might take me a few days to really stir up something good, but I'm doing it.

 

[Tobyas Cuendrelle]

I would have loved a trans-woman who everyone expected to go mad on basis of her biological sex just being an awesome aes-sedai. It would have been such an interesting storyline even better if she became a red. Someone please write this fanfic.

whatttt i was just thinking about the more depressing alternative - this would be so cool

I think that even if Jordan had wanted to include it, the publisher may not have allowed it or a lot of his audience would have turned their backs on the series

it sucks so much.. bc for someone like me who has been raised w a strict and poisonous system of gender, and now is always aware of gender but like in a healthier way, to have fun with it etc and to unlearn those false ideas... the way it's treated in the books is persistently alienating and i just, can't immerse myself in that mindset
also crazy to think how much more widespread [at least in USA] prejudice was like.. 50 years ago. ik things are not perfect for queer people now, but i am happy to live now and not one generation earlier o.o

Our therapist made a rly good point just re: the nature of saidin and saidar. {because i tend to favour how saidar is described as a force that you do not fight but surrender to} that saidin is like lightning or fire, and saidar is like an entire storm. saidin is this focused force you have to control, and saidar is this massive incomprehensible kind of force that you cannot control, you stand within it and influence it. and truly, in life we find both kinds of dynamics.
{to me it also corresponds, in mystical christian theology, to the idea of the theotokos/feminine & the logos. this ineffable matrix out of which everything emerges, and then the tangible emergent structure and form of things that is held within this greater mystery}

 

[Amylia Lerato]

Ok so I wanted to talk about something a little spoilery. I cant remember when this was revealed, I googled at it said lord of chaos, but just to be safe I'm saying spoilers for all the way to crown of swords.

Spoiler: Spoiler warning for I think crown of swords

We do have an example of a female presenting character channeling Saidin. The forsaken Aran'gar/Balthamel. I actually have no idea how too label them, with modern labels. Because the passage says "showing a sense off humour the dark one reincarnated the notorious womanizer into ... the body of a woman". They continue to channel Saidin (implying that to their core) but they do present strongly as female and use female pronouns. (I am aware that at the time of the books discussions around pronoun usage was not really a thing). Aran'gar doesn't seem to mind a whole lot leaning into the new gender presentation. For a book published in the 90s, this is definately more queer representation than expected. After reading this I think a few things about the wot universe change. Notably that gender presentation and the sex of someone is completly different from someone's actual gender. If someone in a female body can channel the male half of the source this implies that the side of the source you can channel or your core gender is seperate from sex. (Super progressive!) Now I'm going to say something way off base here. And I'm going to lead this with I am a cis-gender woman so feel free to correct me. My theory is that when people are reincarnated by the creator/wheel their gender always matches up with their assigned sex at birth. And you only get deviations from this when the dark one is doing the reincarnating. In our universe gender and assigned sex sometimes don't match up but my theory is that in the wot universe they just kinda do? Obviously this does not include non-binary or gender fluid people but that is my theory.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

Ok so I wanted to talk about something a little spoilery. I cant remember when this was revealed, I googled at it said lord of chaos, but just to be safe I'm saying spoilers for all the way to crown of swords.

Spoiler: Spoiler warning for I think crown of swords

We do have an example of a female presenting character channeling Saidin. The forsaken Aran'gar/Balthamel. I actually have no idea how too label them, with modern labels. Because the passage says "showing a sense off humour the dark one reincarnated the notorious womanizer into ... the body of a woman". They continue to channel Saidin (implying that to their core) but they do present strongly as female and use female pronouns. (I am aware that at the time of the books discussions around pronoun usage was not really a thing). Aran'gar doesn't seem to mind a whole lot leaning into the new gender presentation. For a book published in the 90s, this is definately more queer representation than expected. After reading this I think a few things about the wot universe change. Notably that gender presentation and the sex of someone is completly different from someone's actual gender. If someone in a female body can channel the male half of the source this implies that the side of the source you can channel or your core gender is seperate from sex. (Super progressive!) Now I'm going to say something way off base here. And I'm going to lead this with I am a cis-gender woman so feel free to correct me. My theory is that when people are reincarnated by the creator/wheel their gender always matches up with their assigned sex at birth. And you only get deviations from this when the dark one is doing the reincarnating. In our universe gender and assigned sex sometimes don't match up but my theory is that in the wot universe they just kinda do? Obviously this does not include non-binary or gender fluid people but that is my theory.

I think that's a fair theory, to be honest, considering the universe. I also wouldn't put it past the Dark One to be the one corrupting the Pattern, even passively, causing all kinds of chaos and pain. I have my own Christian-centric theory IRL that's a bit complicated but involves original sin.

 

[Phen al'Rohan]

There is an earlier challenge to the binary gendered aspect of the Power.

It is (very aptly, imo) brought by Verin , an Aes Sedai who in many ways is of two worlds, and for whom code-switching (pardon the anachronism) would have become second nature.

In TGH, chap 8 when Rand has his first audience with the Amyrlin, Verin remarks on the limits of the canonical metaphor that "a female Aes Sedai could no more teach you to wield saidin than you could learn to touch saidar. A bird cannot teach a fish to fly nor a fish teach a bird to swim".

Verin points out that there are birds capable of diving under water and fish with sharp beaks and long fins that seem to fly.