Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-8' started by Boles Curtasis, Oct 11, 2012.
Padan Fain, he is so creepy
Ingtar and the lady hiding in the spoiler tag are tops for me.
But there are others worthy of some mention
Weiroman Saniago, the strutting rooster
Most Competent: Alviarin
Aravine; just love her last words! And she served Perrin well for a few months
I never really considered her to be a true villain because she
only did what she did for the sake of studying them and eventually coming up with a way to take them out. She was never really a darkfriend in her heart, merely just a double agent working on behalf of the Light while pretending to be a servant of the Shadow.
For me, the greatest villain is Demandred.
He managed to keep from getting into any confrontations with Rand and was pretty low key up until Tarmon Gai'don. All the other Forsaken either died or failed at bringing any true advantage to the Shadow, whereas Demandred was able to infiltrate the Sharan civilization and take control of all of the channellers (which was a considerable amount btw). He was the only member of the Forsaken who was able to bring any armies or significant number of channellers to Dark One (besides, perhaps, for M'Hael). Because his plans were kept secret from everyone, including us, the readers, it was especially devastating (and interesting to read) when that massive gateway opened and hundreds, if not thousands, of channellers serving the Dark One, as well as a significant army poured out, led by Demandred himself, to rain death and destruction down on the forces of Light.
Because of this, Demandred is definitely the most impressive member of the Forsaken, and my favourite villain
Demandred deserves significant praise for his preparations and actions prior to AMoL; but .....
In AMoL, he was driven by his obsession to best and kill Lews Therin. He wasn't sound in his mind, as evidenced by M'Heal's assessment as well as Mat's. He was out to better Lews Therin more than win the battle for his Master. And in the end, that was his undoing.
And he brought 400 Ayad with him from Shara only. There were enough male channelers to form the maximum circle as well as Taim's cronies and Black Ajah sisters with him. At most he probably had 600 channelers in the battle of Merrilor.
As to the lady I mentioned ....
By her admission, she required a special kind of redemption. To save her hide, she had to commit many crimes. She entered the BA to save her hide - her words; but made good on a terrible situation. In the end, she died a heroine; and I wouldn't have been surprised to see her appear when the horn of valere was blown, alongside another darkfriend-turned hero: Jain Charin
You make some good points Al'Amar, i had forgotten that the main reason Demandred is said to have gone over to the Shadow during the War of Power is because he
was obsessed with besting Lews Therin and jealous of Lews Therin's fame, so it makes sense that he might let this cloud is thoughts and lead him to take unnecessary and stupid risks to beat Lews Therin at Tarmon Gai'don rather than simply trying to win the battle for the Dark One.
Thanks for the clarification as to the number of Ayad that Demandred brought to the Last Battle, I'm just starting my re-read of AMoL now and haven't read it in over a year so i had the exact numbers confused. Given the size of the gateway and the sheer amount of destruction they caused, it is easy to get caught up and assume that the numbers of Ayad were greater than they actually were.
Despite the failures you pointed out, i still think Demandred is the greatest villain in the series
As for Verin, perhaps she was a villain at some point; she certainly committed some atrocious acts in the name of the Shadow despite not truly being a darkfriend. I still can't think of her as a villain though.
Nice to discuss some details, Kyr It's been a while. What are your thoughts on Ingtar?
I'm in Semirhage's villainy fan club. She's quite good at what she does.
I never really paid much thought to Ingtar other then to
silently curse him when i found out he was the one who let the shadowspawn into Fal Dara and made it possible for them to steal the Horn of Valere. Unlike Verin, i assume he became a darkfriend because he actually wanted to and then realized later that he had made a terrible mistake and wanted out (much like Tomas, Verin's Warder) but was in too deep and was forced to do as he was told; in this case, opening the gates of Fal Dara to the shadowspawn
He did what he could to repent and find his way back to the light during events of The Great Hunt, going so far as to confess his crimes to Rand and sacrifice himself at the end to help everyone else get away, but i don't know if i would really consider him redeemed. Yes, he helped them get the Horn back, but the only reason they had to do that at all was because he was the one to basically give the Horn to the Shadow in the first place.
As with Verin, i'm not sure i would consider Ingtar a true villain because by the time we met him in the series he was looking for a way out of the terrible mistake of becoming a darkfriend. Yes, he did some awful things in the name of the Shadow, and unlike with Verin, he was not doing it to ultimately serve the Light. In his heart though, he wasn't a true darkfriend. I would consider him and Tomas both former villains by the time we meet them.
This was one of the saddest tales in WoT for me. It's one of those tales of people doing stupid things when they're younger & living to regret it, but they can't do anything about it, the damage is done & they are stuck.
We don't have any insight on what crimes
committed. Some of them may seem much worse that Ingtar's. We'll never know. He didn't want to become a darkfriend. My understanding and memory of his final words to Rand is that despair pushed him over the edge. It wasn't a drive for power; inherent evil; or even cowardice.
Jain Charin is another interesting nugget. I don't know if it was Graendal's compulsion that made him serve the shadow or else. I seem to remember that Ishmael was the one who recruited him to the Shadow. And in the end, Jain Charin died clean; and then some!
Ingtar's heroic ending is sad. He did what he did out of desperation, regardless of how wrong and misguided that was. But in the end, he served well. May the last embrace of the Mother welcome you home, Lord Ingtar
Hmm okay, i must have forgotten the reasoning he gave Rand.
If he was pressed into service by Ishamael, then his situation bears some similarity with Verin's in that he didn't really have much of a choice; either serve the Shadow or die. And if he was being manipulated by Graendal through the use of compulsion, then he can't really be blamed for anything he did while under her spell, just as Morgase can't be blamed for the things she did while Rahvin was in Andor.
Yes, thinking about Ingtar with the knowledge that he never really wanted to be a darkfriend in the first place and only did it because he was beaten by despair and thought resistance was futile makes me a little less tough on him and more inclined to believe that he had redeemed himself by the time he died.
Regarding a certain persona in those spoiler quotes
I don't know if Ishmael forced Jain to serve, coerced him, or manipulated him. For him and all, there was a moment of choice; where the wrong choice was made; then was rectified. I guess it eventually boils down to making a choice, which is what Rand said to Nakomi after exiting the pit of doom post-sealing the DO.
Yeah i guess you're right, the argument can be made than many would have chosen to die rather than be forced to serve the Dark One, so choices do come into it. What matters here i suppose is that an attempt to rectify bad choices and redeem ons self in the eyes of the Light was made by
Verin, Ingtar, and Jain
, regardless of their reasons for making the choices they did in the first place.
I'd vote for Moghedien and Slayer as the best villians. To me, nothing is worse than being manipulated and having things altered behind the scenes
(like they did in Tel'aran'rhiod)
and then being left to wallow in confusion and self-doubt because things weren't as they should be elsewhere. Talk about being driven to madness.
That's interesting. And it reminds me of how Ba'alzamon/Ishmael used Tel'aran'rhiod in the early books to torment and try to break the 3 ta'veren. That was so good to read!
I bought a print of this at JCon this year, and I think it shows Fain in a wonderful light
Lanfear was my favorite. The dark part of me always wanted Rand to pick her and turn to the shadow.
Lanfear's possessiveness of Rand was helpful to him.
I wish she accepted Rand's offer in A Memory of Light. Would have been great to see at least one of the Foresaken come to her senses.
I finally finished the whole series! And Still Mazrim Taim is my favorite! I really wish we would've seen more of him
He was very effective...
but was dumb'ed down in his "Turning" tactics. He could have had dozens more turned if he requested some Black Sisters right from the start; which was common knowledge to all channelers in Randland!
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