Where did Mat's luck come from?

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Elya Trimrode, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Elya Trimrode

    Elya Trimrode

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    This was either addressed here already, or it is glaringly obvious in the books, but still I never could understand it. I read somewhere that the dice he got in The Great Hunt (I think) were some kind of ter'angreal, but I don't think it is true. Still, there must be some kind of cause for such luck. So, please make it clear for me! :)
     
  2. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    I think there was a ter'angreal shaped like a cluster of dice, but not Matt's dice. After all, he's just as lucky when using someone else's dice (even loaded dice), or playing cards or some other game. ^^
     
  3. Eluial Aldaran

    Eluial Aldaran Aes Sedai Head of the Brown Ajah

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    My understanding was that it's simply always been a part of him, that it's his taveren power, like Perrin's is leadership. But it somehow got amplified, either because of the dagger or because he became a stronger taveren as events progressed.
     
  4. Tobias Carawin

    Tobias Carawin Citizen

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    Mat's luck is foretold in Karaethon Cycle: "Fortune rides like the sun on high with the fox that makes the ravens fly. Luck his soul, the lightning his eye, He snatches the moons from out of the sky." Ta'veren are used to fix threads in the pattern when they drift from their correct alignment. I believe his luck was a gift of the pattern so he could assist in it's repair.
     
  5. Elya Trimrode

    Elya Trimrode

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    Yeah, but Perin's leadership is just a human trait, Mat's luck is more of a power. But it does make sense that it is a product of him being ta'veren :)
     
  6. Aran Cherubim

    Aran Cherubim Resident Citizen

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    Not necessarily - his followers came together in rather odd ways.
     
  7. Elya Trimrode

    Elya Trimrode

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    Maybe you're right... But it's sad somehow, if it's true. I mean, then all of his accomplishments of putting together an army were not a result of his character, but of some higher power.
    Now that I think about it, it could be a mix of both. People were definitely drawn to him by his ta'veren-ness, but they probably stayed, and liked him, because of him. (I hope this makes sense, it did in my head :D)
     
  8. Eluial Aldaran

    Eluial Aldaran Aes Sedai Head of the Brown Ajah

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    Well... kind of. I mean, it's made pretty clear (though not explicit) that Perrin's ability to lead so well comes from his being Ta'veren. He leads well despite himself for the majority of the time. Likewise, Mat's luck is due to the Pattern and his being Ta'veren. But just because both of these traits are gifts from... whatever. Some higher power, the Pattern, whatevs, it doesn't diminish what they each did. Both use their traits in skillful ways. Even with something as seemingly ephemeral as good luck, Mat learns how to take advantage of it. He realizes that he succeeds when things are more random, so he purposefully puts himself in those situations.

    So I'd worry less about where the powers came from, and more about what they did with those powers.
     
  9. Aran Cherubim

    Aran Cherubim Resident Citizen

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    Also, I kind of disagree that these abilities are separate from the people who have them. They are; in my opinion, not "gifts"; rather, they are integral parts of their character. As much as Rand's channeling, or any given person's ability to see or smell.
     
  10. Eluial Aldaran

    Eluial Aldaran Aes Sedai Head of the Brown Ajah

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    In some ways I very much agree. Mat is Mat, in part, because of his luck. Without his luck, he'd be someone else. So yes, they're integral parts of who they are, not something separate from them. But at the same time, in a world where there are outside forces (the pattern, the creator, the dark one) that sometimes control or take part in the lives and destinies of people, it's hard make distinctions like that. I don't find anything contradictory in saying that Mat's luck (or Perrin's leadership or Rand's channeling) is an integral part of him and, at the same time, a gift from the pattern (or, perhaps more accurately, something that's a part of him because of his Ta'verenness).
     
  11. Gendry_Goldeneyes

    Gendry_Goldeneyes

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    i feel like Perrin's power was the Wolf powers, not leadership, Matt had luck, and Rand was the Dragon

    Matt, Perrin, and Rand all had odd leadership, that was just part of their tavern nature, even though Mat's leadership skills were, more than odd hah
     
  12. Brandegoris Al'Mor

    Brandegoris Al'Mor Citizen

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    I think it was just his particular manifestation of being Ta'veren? Or he got it from me?
     
  13. Ty al'Djinn

    Ty al'Djinn Mod for Life Gaidin Company Commander of San d'ma Shadar Forum Moderator

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    Every hero of the wheel has a power that sets them apart, that they ride on down through the ages. Birgitte and her bow, Hawkwing and his unparalleled tactical ability, Perrin the wolfbrother, Mat the gambler, Rand the Dragon- the master of Saidin.

    It is quite clear that Mat, Perrin, and Rand are all heroes of the pattern that happen to be alive at this time because it is what the pattern needs. Mat is too unpredicable and free spirited to be bound to the horn, so he is generally born as the sounder of the horn- after all, the horn's sounder cannot be bound to it.

    Mat's luck is an integral part of him, a piece of his soul as he is reborn over and over in the pattern. All people in the WoT universe have these traits, but for most, they are simple traits. Not without honor, but not writ across the sky in fire.

    The trio of boys in the book, and most of the other ancillary characters, are unique in that they are glorious in their destinies.
     
  14. Almira ni'Caldazare

    Almira ni'Caldazare Citizen

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    I think that Mats luck is part of the balance thing that Min read about. Mats luck is trying to fix the things the Dark One is doing. It just doesnt always turn out well for Mat.
     
  15. Mattrim al'Korin

    Mattrim al'Korin Soldier

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    Yeah, Almira. Rand's presence balances the power of the Shadow in more powerful ways, and Mat affects the balance in subtle ways.
     
  16. Tobias Carawin

    Tobias Carawin Citizen

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    From The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 30:
    He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up. But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth. He remembered playing at dice back home with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac. He remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and four pence.

    From this passage we learn that yes, Mat is lucky... but not overly so. He states it started when he took the dagger.
     
  17. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    Perrin's Wolfness and Rand's channeling came at about the same time. What if it was the leaving of the Two Rivers, and the stepping into their places in the Pattern, that led to their abilities coming on in full?
     
  18. Caenlen Litehu

    Caenlen Litehu

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    Maybe we will find out when the Companion comes out, I have mine pre-ordered. :)
     
  19. The Gambler Matrim

    The Gambler Matrim

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    He was always lucky but it grew after he left the Two Rivers and especially after he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth. I believe his being Ta'veren only enhanced it.