What if it's Mierin?

[Miya Kiyoshi]

Thank you Morrighan! I can't find anything that rules it out explicitly so... I was eager to see if anyone else knew something I didn't due to the fact that RJ and Brandon have said a lot in interviews etc and I don't know all that.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

[quote="Morrighan Daghdera":3mckutkd]Lanfear gave him a teacher & sent Shadowspawn to Tear to help him. She drilled the bore & is the only 1 we know who might help Rand with fixing the mess she helped create.

Both incidents were early in the series (and whether it was Lanfear or Semirhage or somebody else who sent the shadowspawn, I don't remember), and I haven't seen any helping from her later, only her willing to kill him even against Moridin's orders. I guess it's how each of us looks at it, but we'll find out soon enough

But what do you mean Verin didn't turn back to Light? She betrayed the Shadow big time anyway, I'd see that as turning back. Or do you mean that she was the Light's agent all the time?

I hope Axis says something about the theory since he seems to know all the details & facts [/quote:3mckutkd]

Well I do have something to say on Mieren actually.

I actually wonder if she was turned by the DO himself without messing around with Myrddraal that a dreadlord requires.

Now I think its reasonable to assume that Mieren was present in the Sharom when it exploded.

Now its never been clear exactly how she survived that. Really depends how much warning she had, if she had enough of an idea of a power buildup, perhaps she gated out.

However we know Beidomon didn't survive, so if she had time to gate out, he would have been able to as well.

So they were both probably caught in the explosion of the True Power.

I personally suspect that the DO tried to twist them right there and then, maybe killing Beidomon in the process but successful with Mieren.


However that said, she really was a bit of a bitch even before this, so perhaps it was simply a case of her "going over to the dark side willingly" rather than being turned.

 

[Kiante Draktis]

Mmm, good thought AXIS Gaidin. If some Myrdraal (Shadow spawn) and some shadowsworn Aes Sedai could do it, then certainly the DO himself ought to be able to, especially considering those circumstances. And, that would explain how Mierin survived when Beidomon did not.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Beidomon killed himself.

http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Beidomon

 

[Miya Kiyoshi]

So they survived the blast ... again bringing it back to the realm of possible. I have to admit, I really hope this is true!

 

[Taika Vinh]

Oh, I see. You are basing your impression on the few paragraphs in the chapter where Alivia whoops her during the cleansing, which I referenced. I am basing my opinion on her entire story arc beginning with the Age of Legends & ending with the epilogue in ToM.

That's unfair. I'm basing my impression how she was shown to us in the whole story arc, as a selfish power hungry person. To me it looks like she's helping Rand because she wants to guide him & shape him and to own him. Everything she does she does because of herself, not for Rand/LTT. And when she realizes (just before being thrown into the Finnland) that she can't have Rand all the helping him ends.

Like Axis said, she's been a bitch all the time. As for the epilogue in ToM, it can mean almost anything, there's not enough information to say it's even Lanfear's initiative.

Reference here: http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Lanfear

Quotes about her:

"Lanfear (LAN-fear): In the Old Tongue, "Daughter of the Night". One of the Forsaken, perhaps the most powerful next to Ishamael. Unlike the other Forsaken, she chose this name herself. She is said to have been in love with Lews Therin Telamon." (The Great Hunt, Glossary)

"I have guided his steps, pushed him, pulled him, enticed him. He was always stubborn, but this time I will shape him. Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do."- Lanfear to Min about Rand (The Great Hunt, Chapter 48).

"You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed"- Lanfear to Rand al'Thor (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9).

"Lanfear wanted him. The Daughter of the Night, used by mothers who only half-believed in her to frighten children. She certainly frightened him"- Rand al'Thor about Lanfear (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 10).

"I do not kill without cause, Lews Therin. I do not even hurt without cause" - Lanfear to Rand al'Thor (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 57).

"You were always ambitious, Mierin. Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before I ever met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me."- Rand al'Thor to Lanfear (The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 6).

"I seem to remember Lews Therin lead you by the nose, not the other way around. Squelched your little tantrums. Sent you running to fetch his wine, in a manner of speaking? You were so obsessed with him you'd have stretched out at his feet if he had said 'rug'."- Graendal to Lanfear (The Fires of Heaven, Prologue).

I stop the hair splitting about her character now.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

[quote="Morrighan Daghdera":v6155y6e]Oh, I see. You are basing your impression on the few paragraphs in the chapter where Alivia whoops her during the cleansing, which I referenced. I am basing my opinion on her entire story arc beginning with the Age of Legends & ending with the epilogue in ToM.

That's unfair. I'm basing my impression how she was shown to us in the whole story arc, as a selfish power hungry person. [/quote:v6155y6e]

Here's where my confusion occurred:

I based my opinions about how Mierin/Lanfear/Cyndane wants to kill Rand on her point of views in the chapter 35 in Winter's Heart (With the Choedan Kal)

I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Like Axis said, she's been a bitch all the time.

what AXIS Gaidin said in reference to the topic:

However that said, she really was a bit of a bitch even before this, so perhaps it was simply a case of her "going over to the dark side willingly" rather than being turned.

So, it would seem that Miya's theory remains plausible, as no one has yet discredited the possibility with citations. There is always the possibility that she went to the Shadow willingly. At this point, I *hope* that Miya is right if that's the only way some folks will be able to show a modicum of empathy for her character.

 

[Leo Kian]

This may be clutching at straws but...during the War of Power it seems she didn't govern any territory/command troops. It seems she was focused mainly in TAR tormenting people and gaining their allegience to the DO through dreams...while this is bad it could be seen as her unwillingness to kill lots of people like all of the other Forsaken did. This could depend on how someone turned to the Shadow works, they may have to obey and swear to the DO but it doesn't necessarily mean they become serial killers etc. Of course it could also just be her willingly turning to the Shadow to gain power and get one over on LTT.

 

[Elmer109]

f) At the end of book 13 when we see Mierin beg for Rand's help... it's Mierin he calls her and sees her as... not Lanfear. Could this be because of the LTT/Rand merge, or a writer's subtle way of indicating there is a difference between the two.

In the epilogue of ToM, we learn that Graendal's opportunity to hurt Rand has been given to another. This proves that this opportunity was given to Mierin.

P.S. Mierin herself was among the group who drilled the whole into the dark one's prison! (from TSR: Chapter 26)

While, in all probability, she is the one it was given to, this doesn't necessarily mean she'll take it. She could be legit (but she could also be 100% for the Shadow). We'll never find out until AMoL, but it's still nice to fantasize, and I prefer the Mierin turning good guy again. That would be epic.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Beidomon killed himself.

http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Beidomon

Well there's my something knew to learn for today.


So Beidomon can't take the heat he was getting from the people and offs himself. Interesting


Oh and on timelines on the collapse.

Ishar Morrad Chuain goes over to the dark about 30 years after the drilling of the bore.

And LTT marries Ilyena about 50 years after the drilling, at which point Mieren joins the dark too.

So there is about twenty years for Aginor to work on shadowspawn before Lanfear joins, which is not insignificant by a long shot.

And then its another 50 years before the actual war of power begins.

So yes, its not impossible. They certainly joined in the right order, and Aginor has a decent length of time.

The only person to join before Aginor is Kamarile Maradim Nindar (Graendel), we should look at quotes by her referring to Lanfear, because she would have been the only one of the current forsaken in on the plan at the time if it indeed happened.

 

[Kiante Draktis]

We must remember, though, that Myrdraal were not created. 20 years is plenty of time to successfully create Trollocs. Not necessarily for a Myrdraal to be born. So that seems like a flaw. Not knowing how fast Trollocs mature and breed, it could be possible, but it still throws uncertainty on the whole thing.

I'd still like to see it be the case though.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Certainly from what I can seem to see there was a period in the war when trolloc only armies were used, and Myrddral commanders weren't utilized in the field until later.

However that doesn't mean they weren't starting to be born in the breeding grounds. Indeed its almost certain they were starting to be born as the breeding cycle was kicking in.

I'd say the first to be born would have pretty much gone straight to the labs for testing, he'd have been testing them pretty hard I imagine Aginor could possibly have stumbled onto the 13+13 trick pretty quickly.

But you're right it would be nice to nail down a date when the Myrdraal first started to be born.

 

[GMDamodred]

where do you all find this stuff out, like when who changed and why?

also, i want Morridin to change back over to the good, will never happen but i think due to the link Rand may find a way to play the forsaken at his own game then do what he did to Asmodean!

 

[Jerm Walt]

where do you all find this stuff out, like when who changed and why?

also, i want Morridin to change back over to the good, will never happen but i think due to the link Rand may find a way to play the forsaken at his own game then do what he did to Asmodean!

Rand cut the link from the dark one to Asmodean that protected Asmo from the taint. Then Lanfear helped trap him into being a tutor to Rand. The only reason Asmo went with being a tutor was because Rand was his last hope to live and not go mad. He even stated he was too big of a coward to kill himself.

Ishy dont have to worry about the taint any longer, but I see no way for Rand to force his Ishy's hand into turning back to the light.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

where do you all find this stuff out, like when who changed and why?

also, i want Morridin to change back over to the good, will never happen but i think due to the link Rand may find a way to play the forsaken at his own game then do what he did to Asmodean!

Ishy dont have to worry about the taint any longer, but I see no way for Rand to force his Ishy's hand into turning back to the light.

The thing to remember about Elan Morin Tedronai (Ishy), is that he's wasn't really technically "evil" in the truest sense of the word.

He didn't go over to the DO because he liked torturing people like Nemene Damendar Boann (Semi) for instance.

He went over because he came to the logical conclusion the DO winning was inevitable given the cyclic nature of the wheel. Almost the exact conclusion Rand was thinking about at the top of Dragonmount.

He doesn't really "want" the DO to win exactly, he has just calculated that's the outcome its going to be sooner or later, and he might as well be on the winning side.

if Rand can convince him otherwise, then its entirely possible he would flip.


Out of all the Forsaken, Moridin is the MOST likely to be able to come back to the light really.

 

[Miya Kiyoshi]

I have to agree with Axis on this one (Moridin flipping) - the guy was just too logical for his own good and when he looked at the whole picture it was pretty black. Things don't look too hopeful for the forces of Light and, if you consider the idea of the wheel's past turnings... one might come to reason that no matter the great successes you have, no matter how wonderous your world becomes, it will always fall into shadow just so the wheel keeps turning.

I think Elan Morin Tedronai (Ishy) came to the conclusion that because of this, it wasn't worth wasting his time making the world a better place. What was the point in fighting if it was already scripted that the world would always fall into shadow for a time, that all your creations would be destroyed?

Instead of living inspite of the darkness... he gave up. Rand might help him to change his point of view and I hope he does because that's another story of redemption and realization that I think would be very powerful.

 

[Kiante Draktis]

I concur. Moridin has always seemed to be more of a good guy than most Forsaken. Then again, I think Asmodean might've really turned to the Light given time. But I think, especially given his unique connection with Rand, I think Moridin could be redeemed. He may even be part of the key to winning the Last Battle.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Didn't Asmodean sever his own mother? Anyway, I *think* this prophecy is critical in the debate of whether or not Ish will be redeemed:

"Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late." - From a fragmentary translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon, attributed to Lord Mangore Kiramin, Sword-bard of Aramaelle and Warder to Caraighan Maconar, into what was then called the vulgar tongue (circa 300 AB).

My guess is that Ish thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, but maybe it's Rand. I get stuff backwards a LOT. If Ish (spinner-out-of-fate) learns the truth soon enough, then maybe there is hope for him.

Side note guesses on the rest of the prophecy: Mat=Master of lightnings; Perrin=rider on the storm; Rand=wearer of a crown of swords.

So, if Death himself can be redeemed then *perhaps* there's also hope for the only character we know has some knowledge about the Bore she helped to drill to redeem herself. Ish flipped due to logic; Mierin was either forcibly flipped or flipped from being scorned by love. At least neither one of them severed their mother. :\

 

[Kiante Draktis]

Any of the Forsaken COULD have come back to the Light. They may have died in the process, but they could have. Some are just more likely than others.

Yes, Asmodean severed his mother, and murdered her too I think.

I think it more likely that Rand is the one referred to in the bolded part of that prophecy. After all, he thinks that, somehow, he's gotta try to win the last battle. After the last battle would be a new age. Thus, the wheel would have turned. Moridin's job isn't to turn the wheel, help it keep going, but rather to throw it off balance, get it destroyed.

 

[Jodea Kegan]

On the subject of Lanfear, I would say it is possible for her to have been turned, but highly implausible. Same goes for all of the Forsaken. They wree all shown to have a fundamental flaw of character that caused their transitions. Generally speaking you do not have to point out that fundamental flaw to explain it if you are going to say "Nah, she is really a good guy being forced to be very very bad"


Verin proves that you can be an agent of the shadow and not be evil, so if Lanfear was changed she would still be able to NOT kill people randomly and all sorts of things but she does it anyway, and enjoys it. Never once does she express regret for being bad. Never.


She may not be irredeemable, but I find it extremely unlikely she is a good guy forced into being a Forsaken.


and I am not getting this Moridin being good in any way thing? Its Ishy reborn... you dont get more evil than him. He may have gone over to the shadow due to his "logic", but he has not become the person he is for logic. He believes he is preordained to be the dark ones advocate... which implies he cannot be redeemed.