Two Rivers/Andor = Political Theory?

[Severian Asamura]

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony

-- Monty Python

It occurred to me towards the end of reading A Memory of Light, that the relationship between Two Rivers and Andor highlights an interesting political theory. Maybe theory isn't correct and 'truth'is more accurate. A truth that basically states that any and all governments exists because the governed allows it to be so. In relation to the books... the Two Rivers hasn't seen anyone one representing the Andorian government in so long that most of them didn't even know they were in that country. On the other side of the coin, the Queen and everyone, only see the Two Rivers as lines on a map.

The Two Rivers ended up referring to Perrin as 'Lord', even without any 'official' announcement as such. Of course, that got me thinking about how one becomes a 'Lord/Lady' or Queen//King'. I can only assume that it was something similar to that happened to Perrin. A natural leader came along and people followed. Somehow it started being assumed that bloodline would pass along the leadership abilities.

I won't go farther with my thoughts since it would cross into spoiler area for the last 2 books, so I'll leave this question... Do you believe that the Two Rivers area still be part of Andor, or given the right to govern themselves, or at least choice which of the major countries to be part of? I'm of the mind that the Two Rivers, given location and being left on their own for so long anyways, is more that capable of ruling themselves.

 

[Alora Sionn]

I'm inclined to side with the Two Rivers on this one, after all when the Whitecloaks basically took over and were threatening to kill people, where were the Queens guards? The Two Rivers folk had to fend for themselves, and since they were basically autonomous to begin with (governance, economy, defense, everything) I don't see what claim Andor has. As Artur Hawkwing learned, you have to be able to keep the lands you claim, and since they did nothing to keep that area, well, how can they be surprised if they want to be their own nation now? (Of course maybe I side with them as I am American and its almost like the relationship between the British Empire and the American colonies )

 

[Severian Asamura]

I'm of the same mind. I'm a bit annoyed with how Perrin responded to Elayne to be honest. I felt he should have been more aggressive.

 

[Brandegoris Al'Mor]

The Queen didn't provide two Rivers Protection. A vassal is supposed to get PROTECTION in return for their loyalty ( and taxes) . The deal was broken by the Queen. The moment she didn't live up to HER end that set Two Rivers free

 

[Della Toren]

I got a question; how much of Two Rivers founded sense of independence come from finding out they're of an older nation than Andor? Cause before Rand they were basically fine and caused little trouble overall from what I remember reading.

 

[Severian Asamura]

I think that they always had that sense (i.g. their stubborn streak), but it wasn't until after Rand left that they start to find out that someone had a 'claim' on them, so to speak. The events that followed after Rand left just game the people of Two Rivers a reason why they were and felt the way they did.

 

[Della Toren]

I suppose that makes sense. Wasn't their relationship with the nearby city really their only contact with Andor? Like no one really left to go explore the world expect Tam

 

[Severian Asamura]

Which City? Most of Two Rivers hasn't even had contact to a 'city'. My understanding is that they dealt with merchants that came to them once or twice a year. I could be wrong in that though. As for Tam, you would think he would know that the Two Rivers is in Andor. I don't recall him ever saying they were or agreeing with anyone.

 

[Della Toren]

Wasn't there a city or nearby town that they traded with quite often? or took their tabac to?

 

[Severian Asamura]

That depends. The nearest big 'Town' is Baerlon. The nearest city, is arguably, White Bridge. i'm not sure either has any direct contact with the Two Rivers.

 

[Della Toren]

Yeah Baerlon was the one I was thinking of. Cause I originally wanted to post Berlin. Lol. But yeah, I thought that was the only place they went. Like not everyone. But some.

 

[Mattrim al'Korin]

I'm of the same mind. I'm a bit annoyed with how Perrin responded to Elayne to be honest. I felt he should have been more aggressive.

I agree totally. They already were fending for themselves, and they honestly have no need for Andor's protection.

 

[Aran Cherubim]

The Queen didn't provide two Rivers Protection. A vassal is supposed to get PROTECTION in return for their loyalty ( and taxes) . The deal was broken by the Queen. The moment she didn't live up to HER end that set Two Rivers free

It's stated in the books that the Two Rivers haven't been paying taxes in generations though, so it's conceivable that they broke it first. However, the fact that Andor never seemed to seek to demand recompense signifies a tacit approval of their independence, imho.

 

[Mattrim al'Korin]

It's stated in the books that the Two Rivers haven't been paying taxes in generations though, so it's conceivable that they broke it first. However, the fact that Andor never seemed to seek to demand recompense signifies a tacit approval of their independence, imho.

Good point. Elayne's chagrin about it throughout the series really bothered me, though. If it bothered the noble houses of Andor so much, they should have corrected that oversight a long time ago.

What about Perrin's agreement with the Seanchan, though?

Spoiler

I don't think Tam was informed of it when he was made Lord of the Two Rivers and he didn't mention it while negotiating with Elayne

 

[Rowain Sikar]

I completely agree Alora Sedai. Especially since the Two Rivers hasn't had taxes in decades either.