The Wheel of Time Re-read (currently reading - The Shadow Rising)

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Reread (Spoilers)' started by Ilverin Matriam, May 2, 2021.

  1. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    I was reading one of the Baerlon chapters, and Mat was going to tell the inn staff about running away from trollocs. Lan was annoyed, because he had expected the boys to have enough sense to not say anything, but Mat's argument was something like "you never said not to talk about trollocs"
    So, when they are in Shadar Logoth and Moiraine says "did anyone give you anything", they really should have know better and that he wouldn't include "no, I just took it" in that. Moiraine's attitude there was really foolish
    I also decided the boys were entirely justified in not trusting her enough to tell her about the dreams. She had only just told them that she would be willing to kill them to keep them out of the Dark One's hands. Going up to her and saying "by the way, he's in my dreams' would have been insane.
    I'm still not clear on how ba'alzamon broke the rat's backs - was he there in person and did it? Did he bring the rats into TAR - how is that even possible?
     
  2. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    I agree, I understand that the boys didn't tell Moiraine about the dream.

    And Mat not telling them about the dagger is because he knew that she would probably take it from him :tug Mat really is an idiot. :tug
     
  3. Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum

    Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum Anime Sensei Assistant TVT Editor Aes Sedai

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    On the other hand, Moiraine and Lan have hammered home several times just how EVIL this place is. Mat taking something from a place like that and then arguing semantics is foolish as well. (Though...I'm not impartial, because I don't particularly like Mat...)

    Now that, I understand. Were I in their situation, that statement from her would make me very uneasy in approaching her about ANYTHING involving helping me. It also bears mentioning Moiraine bringing up to Rand earlier on that she can help him with his nightmares while he was bringing Tam in from Winternight. Like...he had just had an entire night full of trauma, and she wants to talk about something that clearly involves messing with his mind with the One Power unbidden. Yeah, I get it.
     
  4. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Yeah, after Lan explained that just because he didn't specifically say "don't mention the trollocs" didn't mean he couldn't talk about anything else, but trollocs were allowed, he really should have thought 'hmm, I need to listen to what they mean, not just what they say. The world is dangerous, I should just be extra cautious until I know something is safe"
    But he's an idiot village boy with no experience of the real world. Lan and Moiraine didn't have that excuse
     
  5. Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum

    Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum Anime Sensei Assistant TVT Editor Aes Sedai

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    My feeling of "uuuuuuugh :rolleyes" *nearly* every time Mat talks does not fade throughout the series. :lol
     
  6. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    I mean that is part of the point of having the books from The Boys POV. We aren't supposed to know if Moraine is Trustworthy until Book 4 when she makes her Oath to Rand.
     
  7. Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum

    Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum Anime Sensei Assistant TVT Editor Aes Sedai

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    14 year-old me was totally on-board with Moiraine at this point. :lol
     
  8. Tayre Isaelli

    Tayre Isaelli Resident Citizen

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    I have a couple of things that I noticed in this section so far. I have no idea how organized or accurate these thoughts will be, but oh well. I'll put it in spoilers to organize it a bit better.
    While Rand seems to accept Ba'alzamon at face value as the Dark One, isn't it later established that this person is actually just Ishamael masquerading as the Dark One? This would make some of his statements, such as "I have never been bound", plus his claims about Lews Therin and Artur Hawkwing, more of exaggerations rather than lies, as Ishamael was only partially bound and could get out now and then.
    Also, I would like to draw attention to the sentence "I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms." This seems to be foreshadowing to the Seanchan, although I am not sure what the other "doom yet to come" is, as many disastrous events happen throughout the series.
    Simply because there are so many rats in the inn, I think he must have had help. Even if he was just channelling the rats out of their hiding places and some Darkfriends were just killing them, it still seems implausible to do with an inn full of rats in one night without being noticed or detected. Also, now I am curious on the implication of animals in Tel'aran'rhiod. We know animals dream, but not all dreams are in Tel'aran'rhiod. Wolves are connected to Tel'aran'rhiod, but domestic animals are not. What about feral animals? Or animals in the process of domestication? People can be pulled in, so would this also work on wolves, and then to other animals?
    I love Min so much. And now for my analysis of her viewings.
    The group with sparks: Seems pretty straightforward, as the fight against the Dark One.
    Egwene: She will not marry Rand ("...she's not for you, or you for her. Not in the way you both want."), and become an Aes Sedai ("When I look at her, I see the same as when I look at... Mistress Alys.").
    Lan: His parts are pretty self explanatory as well, as the seven towers represent Malkier and the baby was him. However, Min refers to "men like him", which I am not sure if it meant as Warders or royalty.
    Thom: I am not sure what is meant by "A man -not him- juggling fire,", but the White Tower is probably representing his later marriage to Moiraine.
    Perrin: The wolf shows his status as a wolfbrother. I have some ideas on the broken crown, but they are not fully formed yet. I have no idea what the flowering trees mean.
    Mat: The red eagle is his connection to Manetheren, and possibly a bit of foreshadowing for the Band. The eye on the scale corresponds to him bargaining his eye for Moiraine, which is later echoed by the Aelfinn prophecy "To give up half the light of the world to save the world!" The dagger is of course from Shadar Logoth, and the horn is the Horn of V--- (I can't remember the name currently). The laughing face, I feel, is Tuon, though I have no evidence for that currently.
    Rand: The "sword that isn't a sword" is Callendor and the crown is the Crown of Swords. I have no idea what the beggar's staff or watery sand is about currently, and the bloody hand/hot iron represents him losing his hand in Knife of Dreams through fire. The three women are Min, Elayne, and Aviendha, standing over Moridin in Rand's body. Black rocks with blood are during the Final Battle. The lightning is perhaps a representation of saidin, or the Pattern itself.
    That is all I have for now, but I will probably have more later.
     
  9. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re : Rats

    Remember Ishamel is in the world of dreams, and things that happen to living beings in the world of dreams can affect the real world. Likely he pulled a bunch of rats into the World of Dreams by force and snapped them that way.
     
  10. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Director of Research and Records Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    I do not agree and do not understand why they didn't. I mean, I have the advantage of knowing more about Moiraine, but still in a situation like this they decided to trust Thom with the dreams and not Moiraine, who has said several times that she can help with dreams. Obviously here Thom is at fault for telling them not to tell her, since he's biased towards Aes Sedai smh.

    So, I am working on a timeline for the Eye of the World and wanted to ask you all what you think:
    Let's say Day 1 is the day of Bel Tine and they leave Emond's Field in the night.
    In Chapter 13 Choices it says - "The journey to Baerlon took almost a week.", which means it's not a whole week, which in WoT is 10 days, so I am thinking around Day 7/8 they reach Baerlon? Does that sound plausible? :scratch Do we have anywhere to check this? Maybe someone else has noticed something I missed.
     
  11. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Ba'alzamon saying 'I was standing next to Lews Therin when he killed everyone", while not exactly true, should tell all the readers his true identity. However, Moiraine has only just informed us that Ba'alzamon is the Dark One, and we haven't really read enough of the series to realise it isn't just the village folk who confidently assert things as facts when they really don't know what they are talking about, so it is easy to overlook
    Min's visions, some are clear what they eventually mean, some possible and some I have no idea. RJ once said they are about future events, not past influences - So the man juggling fire for Thom wouldn't be Owyn, the baby in the crib wouldn't be Lan
    I suppose bloody hand/hot iron could be him losing his hand, but there was no bloody hand and no hot iron. Things flowering around Perrin could be him cleansing the Ways, but that scene was cut.
    The Broken Crown is Saldeae, but Faile was usually represented by a Falcon. It could be related to Faile eventually being Queen - not everything she sees has to happen before the Last Battle
    What does "She will not refuse it" mean for Egwene - she is already going to the Tower to learn to be Aes Sedai, so that would be odd, so maybe Min saw her as the Amyrlin Seat one day
     
  12. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    "She will not refuse it" probably means the One Power and the White Tower.

    The broken crown is the crown of Saldea. Since the Queen of Saldea, and Lord Bashere both die in the Last Battle, Faile is next in line for that throne.
     
  13. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Because they live in a backwoods culture whose main set of news comes from second hand sources and Aes Sedai have Major PR issues even in the places where they are known so two rivers folks have been getting information on Aes Sedai from people who have not had the best of interactions in the majority of the time.

    As much as we can like Moraine and Verin it is really hard to Argue that rule Zero for the majority of the Aes Sedai is "Be as unhelpful as humanly possible unless it directly benefits me." and that does include Moraine much of the time because she actively harms* Rand attempting to "guide" him. Somehow Verin is legitimately the most helpful of the bunch despite being in The Black Ajah.

    *This is something I will go into up once we get to book 3, I know I didn't cover it in the previous re-read because I only realized it a year or so ago.
     
  14. Satara al'Caelahn

    Satara al'Caelahn Aes Sedai Head of the White Ajah Moderator

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    I think what gets me about Moiraine and makes me sympathize with her a little bit is that this is her entire life's goal. Ever since she was a novice, she has been completely, unrelentingly dedicated to finding The Dragon Reborn and she's had all that time, nearly twenty years from the time Rand was born, to formulate a plan to steer him, help him learn, keep him safe from the taint, and direct him toward Tarmon Gai'don.

    Then enter Rand, stubborn as it gets, from a small village that really only knows stories about Aes Sedai that involved them, even the women, breaking the world. Terrifying, word-twisting Aes Sedai, and they don't trust her.

    Now Moiraine makes the threat to essentially end them if they go against her plan because that plan is so important to her and she knows what's at stake. Unfortunately, that combined with Thom's bias doesn't help the boys trust her, and I don't blame them, but I don't blame her, either.

    This is just another example of "Aes Sedai know best" even when they really, really don't.
     
  15. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    To me, it is simple why they don’t trust her. They had seen her sink someone’s ferry because she could and she had literally just told them she would destroy them to keep them out of the Dark One’s hands. They had absolutely no reason to believe that this wouldn’t include “he’s in my dreams”
     
  16. Merena Orithana

    Merena Orithana Accepted

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    Haha - Gawyn and Galad were so much worse, though. So I ended up getting used to Mat. :rofl
     
  17. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    That is only because Gawyn got assassinated as a character since he was written into a corner.
     
  18. Satara al'Caelahn

    Satara al'Caelahn Aes Sedai Head of the White Ajah Moderator

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    #justiceforgawyn
     
  19. Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum

    Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum Anime Sensei Assistant TVT Editor Aes Sedai

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    We're in Mat's head a lot more, though. :lol

    My *main* gripe with him is that he tends to pass the buck with EVERY LITTLE THING. This first little scene being a good example. "I messed up because you didn't tell me specifically what not to talk about. It doesn't matter that my friends were trying to steer me away from the topic." That's what makes me "Uuuuuuugh :rolleyes" the most. :lol
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  20. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    Ugh, Gawyn is a very annoying character.

    Galad is also annoying, but at least he makes sense :tug