The Wheel of Time Re-read (currently reading - Lord of Chaos)

Ilverin Matriam

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Do we know who warded the draghkar? I don't think vandene or adeleas were black ajah....

We see Nyneave's raising to accepted - it is noted that the aes sedai didn't swear their oaths before the trolloc wars. I had thought they started swearing them earlier than that.

What is your opinion: do you think the places within the arches were real alternative worlds or just figments of novices' imaginations?
It seems that one needs to be unclothed to enter, as well.

Didn't someone mentioned that Liandrin left the Amyrlin's escort to Tar Valon and possibly followed Moiraine? If she had the orders from Ba'alzamon to follow Moiraine and see what she's up to, it's possible that Liandrin was also the one to send and ward the Drakhar.

I am confused about the Accepted's test. So, we know that for the Aes Sedai test, the Aes Sedai who are around the ter'angreal give you the tests and weave some really difficult situations for you. With the Accepted test... what do the Aes Sedai do? Do they just power the ter'angreal?
Also, another thing, in the third archway Nynaeve notices the arch disappear when she thinks to herself that she might stay. So... first of all, did the Aes Sedai channeling in that archway remove it? And second, how did Nynaeve channel the archway back? I think she was looking for resudie of the weave and somehow channeled a gate back to the real world. But still, in that case the third Aes Sedai would've felt something... or am I thinking about this too much? :p Also, right there in the end she seems to remember everything that's happening in the real world -
"I could stay here. With Lan. Nothing has changed. Her thoughts turned. Nothing has changed. Egwene is alone in the White Tower. Rand will channel the Power and go mad. And what of Mat and Perrin? Can they take back any shred of their lives? And Moiraine, who tore all our lives apart, still walks free."

Also, it is possible that the worlds are real, it's just that they get built up from the Novice's memories somehow? And probably that's why everything seemed real to Nynaeve even after the third arch disappear.

Also the fact that Sheriam says very confidently that they know what that ter'angreal does, makes me roll my eyes :p
Another thing about the ter'angreal, Sheriam said it's been found during the Trolloc wars. Did they use something else before that to test the initiates? And I went on a tangeant and now I wonder how the Age of Legends Aes Sedai were made Aes Sedai? :look:
 
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Ilverin Matriam

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I have to say, Nynaeve's test makes little sense. At least the order of them.

I mean, Malkier for the future makes perfect sense. But why is Two Rivers present? I suppose Nynaeve still thinks of herself as the Wisdom, though she has noted that she will probably not be returning for quite some time.

But what is with that random first test? Aginor? I mean, she encountered him at the Eye of the World, but if that is the case, then the Two Rivers test and this one should be swapped :look:

I have always thought it makes perfect sense :look: Well ok, the Aginor thing is a bit of a stretch :laugh: But technically he was in her past for a small second :P
So, first challenge - Aginor (working on Fear, she fights it with anger)
Second challenge - Emond's Field (working on her Guilt, I guess she runs away from that one?)
Third challenge - Lan (working on her Hope and desire , she defeats it with loyalty to her people)

I don't know, I think they are well chosen, but I have nothing to back it up with :laugh:
 

Jaryd Kosari

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I freaking love the Three Arches. I have written more fic versions of those than pretty much any other WoT-based scenario. :look:

I interpret them similarly to how I interpret Tarot cards- i.e. I look at how the overall theme applies to the character.

In Nynaeve's case, she became Wisdom at an incredibly young age, and the fears she faces in that first arch reflect that experience in an abstract way. She's afraid of being vulnerable (naked), of facing forces she cannot hope to defeat (Aginor), and of losing control of any given situation (lost in a maze of bridges with no clue where she's going or where she's been). The whole experience is abstract because those fears are so strong and control her so much, yet are so sublimated, that trying to face them is...well...like running naked through a funhouse with the devil on her heels.

Her second arch seems more relevant to her Wisdom experience, but if you think about it, it really isn't. It's set in the external setting she's familiar and comfortable with, but she's facing the real fears of her present, and they're ones she can actually put a face to. She's afraid of her own power. She's afraid of what the Dragon being Reborn means. She's afraid of failing her self-set mission to protect her people. She's afraid of Rand winning AND he's afraid of him losing, and what that means for the world and for him (and for her). All of that is grounded in stone cold reality, so it makes sense the arch is more realistic feeling.

And the third... (spoilers for later books)

Every canon arch we have access to, the third Arch has more than a touch of prophecy, and Nynaeve's is no different, but she doesn't know that.

She's afraid of wishes coming true. She's afraid of loving. She's afraid of being loved. She's afraid of having a normal, happy existence where she's allowed to roll around in the flowers and kiss her partner, where she has someone she trusts who will take care of her children so she can relax. These aren't things she's ever been allowed to want, so dreaming about them terrifies her.

Most of all though, I think she's afraid of fighting to achieve those impossible dreams and then inevitably losing them because, in her world everyone else's problems are more important than her own needs...and she's utterly certain that's how it always will be.

In short: Nynaeve al'Meara breaks my heart.
 

Merena Orithana

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@Jaryd Kosari - agreed. I never really analyzed it in that detail before, but had the same general interpretation.

However, I just can't call them the arches or the three arches, because:
latest


:look:

I usually end up referring to them as the terangreal used to test for accepted... :laugh:
 

Jaryd Kosari

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PFFFT oh my god I've been reading these books since I was nine and immersed in the fandom since I was twelve and I've never thought of them that way. I'm never going to be able to look at them the same again now. :rofl

(The image doesn't show, but it's the McD's golden arches for people reading along :p)
 
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Aduiavas Ida

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:brown-blink:
That makes a lot of sense :) Thank you for explaining it this way :) I'll stop moaning about this test and wait further criticism until we get to Egwene's test :P

I may also have been annoyed at this because of a meta reason.
I own all the books in paperback. Well, my copy of the Great Hunt split in two, and the page that it split on is right when Nyneave is in the second arch. So that scene from the Two Rivers is probably the scene from this book that I have read the most, since I can't help but read a few words every time I pick up that latter part of the book. So I may just be tired of that scene :P
 

Merena Orithana

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Didn't someone mentioned that Liandrin left the Amyrlin's escort to Tar Valon and possibly followed Moiraine? If she had the orders from Ba'alzamon to follow Moiraine and see what she's up to, it's possible that Liandrin w

Yes! That must have been it.
 

Toral Delvar

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One thing I noted was when lab was angry that Moiraine was going to give him to another Aes Sedai he says something like “oh, and is she going to drop a lake on me too?”
When he gets to Nynaeve, the first thing he does is jump in the sea to rescue her, so there is a little symmetry there.
 

Ilverin Matriam

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Yup, Jaryd's explanation is excellent! I also hadn't thought that deeply into it before and it makes a lot of sense!

I do wonder how the third arch has both Nynaeve and Egwene's futures sort of correct though. Is this something that they wish to happen or have at some point considered happening in their futures?
 

Merena Orithana

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PFFFT oh my god I've been reading these books since I was nine and immersed in the fandom since I was twelve and I've never thought of them that way. I'm never going to be able to look at them the same again now. :rofl
I was first reading the books while I worked there... :giggle
 

Toral Delvar

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Chapter 21
We learn some Hunters have already come looking for the Horn. I don’t think we ever learn why it is connected to Illian, or why the Blessing is considered important
The food they are eating is described a lot like sweet and sour pork
Caldevwin’s questions are a little odd – Is he trying to trick Rand into revealing he isn’t really Andoran by getting him to reveal he doesn’t know who Gareth Bryne is?
Selene uses the Power on Catrine to make her drop some oil
We are introduced to Daes Daemar, though it takes a while to see how deep it goes – Rand’s offhand comment about the statue even manage to make it to Barthanes
Maybe Rand is just young an innocent, but Selene’s note “You will be in my thoughts always, as I know I am in yours” is creepy.
Chapter 22
Moiraine says that before she left TarValon she arranged to pass her bond to Myrelle. At some point, though they never meet again, she relays to Myrelle that it is to be passed to Nynaeve. It seems obvious to me she is thinking of Nynaeve in this conversation, though that clearly wasn’t her original intent
She is expecting that he will ask her to release him from the bond
Prophecy! “five ride forth and four return”. Vandene’s interpretation of the prophecy, that “m’avron” means “m’avron” and not “avron” sounds much more sensible
Vandene asks of the Reds “When was the last time the Reds found two men channeling in less than a year? When did they last find one in five years” – Just how rarely do the Reds claim to find men who channel?
Who warded the Drakhar and sent it after Moiraine? Shadowspawn don’t follow orders from anyone other than the Forsaken
Chapter 23
Did they really swear the first oaths between the Trolloc Wars and War of the Hundred Years? The companion says the first two were in place before the Trolloc Wars started and maybe as much as five hundred years, and the third by the end. Given the effect on life spans, and that once the White Tower was formed and the Compact of the Ten Nations in place, civilization was stable enough that the Aes Sedai were probably living close to their natural life span, it seems likely they were introduced very early, or someone would have noticed that they suddenly started dying around 300 years of age
Nynaeve feels Aginor doing something when he channels – in the real world, women feel nothing of saidin
Why is Nynaeve able to remember things, and to channel?
Where do the blackthorns come from? If it was just Tel’aran’rhiod, shouldn’t they have disappeared as soon as she left the arches? The text doesn’t say if they vanish as soon as they are withdrawn, which I think is what happened to Rand in book one.
Chapter 24
Egwene clearly does not think of Elayne as “Her daughter heir”
Apparently, they kept trying to find a way of not gentling men for 300 years after the Tower was founded
Egwene is jealous that Min is interested in Rand – he seems to have moved on from her much quicker than she has with him. At least until she meets Gawyn and Galad
Min’s visions – White flame for Egwene is probably the Amyrlin Seat, the Severed hand for Elayne probably relates to Rand losing a hand (even though there was no severed hand), but I can’t see why this is significant for Elayne.
Gawyn describes how Rand has altered the world, but because Rand is a peasant, can’t quite bring himself to acknowledge he seems to be ta’veren
Elayne talks about how it is so difficult to follow the rules, but then goes and talks to Elaida like a servant, rather than an Aes Sedai
Chapter 25
The invitations get to Rand remarkably quickly
Thom lives!
Thom thinks Moiraine is a fine woman
Chapter 26
The innkeeper at the Bunch of Grapes is not Cairhienin – she has dark skin
Thom initially decides that Loial and Rand are wrong about thinking they have the Horn, rather than asking why they think it, but at least he accepts once he learns Moiraine said so.
Again, what legends tie the Horn to Illian
More prophecy – twice the heron and twice the dragon. Rand really shouldn’t be quite so deep in denial
Rand talks about how he doesn’t want the Aes Sedai to use him as a False Dragon, and wants nothing to do with the One Power. Thom somehow fails to pick up on this
Chapter 27
There is a real Trolloc in Cairhien – who is controlling it? Unless Fain is right there, it seems unlikely it would not have wandered off
Selene mysteriously finds them again. She keeps on about How Rand can be great
We meet Aludra
 

Aduiavas Ida

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And with the Trollocs, is it Lanfear or Fain who sends those?

The scene in the Illuminators guild is wonderfully written. Especially for us reader, who know that some of those boxes contain things that explode, like gunpowder :look:
 

Toral Delvar

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Probably Fain, as it would be difficult for Lanfear to get them there.
 

Jaryd Kosari

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Yup, Jaryd's explanation is excellent! I also hadn't thought that deeply into it before and it makes a lot of sense!

I do wonder how the third arch has both Nynaeve and Egwene's futures sort of correct though. Is this something that they wish to happen or have at some point considered happening in their futures?

I think the tests pull from the actual threads of the Pattern to build a scenario that could or should terrify the testee, tbh.
 
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For some reason, I thought that no one save MAYBE the Dark One knew Lanfear was free, and she wasn't trying to turn Rand to the DO necessarily, just kind of turn him into serving himself
 

Toral Delvar

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Nice set of chapters coming up, with an introduction to the Aiel, and we begin to learn about the Seanchan
Looking through the notes, in one of them, Rand doesn't buy a plain wool cloak - he spends the first half of the book complaining that is all he wants, and the first chance to get it, decides he likes fancy clothes too much
 

Merena Orithana

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the Severed hand for Elayne probably relates to Rand losing a hand (even though there was no severed hand), but I can’t see why this is significant for Elayne.

Agreed - it is odd that Elayne would have that, and not Aviendha or Rand... I wonder if this is just one of those inconsistencies that pop up in longer series.

The invitations get to Rand remarkably quickly

Yes - :rofl

Again, what legends tie the Horn to Illian

I'm not sure we learn these - but they must be from the AoL, right? Hasn't the Horn been hidden since then?

Vandene asks of the Reds “When was the last time the Reds found two men channeling in less than a year? When did they last find one in five years” – Just how rarely do the Reds claim to find men who channel?

In New Spring, it is mentioned that the Reds stilled a ton of men across the years between when Rand was born and EoTW. Wasn't Toveine sent to the Farm because of her mishandling of that?
 

Toral Delvar

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Yes, the Reds went on a black inspired purge. I think most of those were hidden - someone (possibly Cadsuane) later mentions the actual recorded number. But it is less than the real number.
 

Toral Delvar

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Chapter 28
The wolves have given Rand the name Shadowkiller
Urien states he has no pipers to play the tune, but is willing to dance. This never seems to bother them again
What stories are there about Aiel, and why? Apart from the Aiel War, they don’t leave the Waste
Urien calls Verin a Wise One and says they years don’t touch the Wise Ones in the same ways as the touch other women – he might have well have just told her they can channel
Urien doesn’t know the Jenn Aiel are no more
He states that those returning from the Waste are marked as Wise Ones or Clan Chiefs – I don’t think he is correct that the Wise Ones are marked
What old prophecies say the Aes Sedai will slay the Aiel if they fail them again? This is another thing we don’t really see again. Do these prophecies even exist?
Urien talks of the prophecy of the Cara’carn. He is obviously talking about Rand. Verin realizes, but gives an answer suggesting she doesn’t
Chapter 29
No one knows where the Seanchan have come from – clearly not the Westlands, but tales that they are Artur Hawkwing’s descendents come back are dismissed
They are taking women from villages, no one knows why, though it is pretty obvious they are taking those that can channel or learn.
Egeanin hits Domon for saying the word “Aes Sedai”. The Seanchan do grow a little more reasonable
Why are the Seanchan murdering the watchers? Everyone else they give a chance to say the oaths. It seems remarkably petty here
The Seanchan believe the people who have sworn the oaths will stick to them – apparently not out of fear, but because they are oaths
Egeanin steals one of the Seals from Domon and gives it to Turak. This seems inconsistent with what we later see regarding the Seanchan attitude to property
Chapter 30
Rand gets invitations from House Riatin and House Damodred. The Cairhienin are insane
The horn is stolen, just before Verin and the others arrive
Chapter 31
The crows in Cairhienin is very impressed to see an Aes Sedai. Just what do they do with their lives? Do Yellows actually Heal people?
Rand still thinks they want to use him as a False Dragon. The denial is deep here
Rand remembers Egwene, and thinks if he could marry anyone it would be her. I think he is trying to convince himself
Verin mentions the name “Portal Stone” is not widely known – she is very curious about Selene
Perrin notices that the coar fits Rand, and he has a new dignity to him
Who are the women Verin can think of that are strong enough to survive the flow through the Choedan Kal. Who are the three in training? Most likely Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne, though Egwene and Elayne are no where near their full strength yet. She is also wrong about Logain – he is much stronger than all the women she named.
Chapter 32
Barthanes seems to think Rand was checking on the statue for Galldrian and reads mountains into every comment Rand makes – we later see something very similar with Perrin and Alliandre. He also seems to suspect that Rand is Gawyn in disguise.
Thom warns Rand that the White Tower invented Daes Daemar. He also seems to be considering helping Rand again.
Chapter 33
Mat talks about how he hopes Rand doesn’t go mad. He really needs a filter. Or a muzzle
How is Machin Sin waiting? I think Fain probably asked it somehow. Does it really try to get out? Is that even possible?
Verin insists that Fain could not have controlled Machin Sin – again she no doubt believes it, but she doesn’t have a great reason for thinking it true
We learn they were still growing the Ways 600 years ago
Chapter 34
Something killed Barthanes overnight – tore him to pieces which does not sound like a human
Thom decides to kill Galldrian
Fain goes to an abandoned Stedding on Toman Head – why and when was it abandoned?
Turak does not want to blow the Horn – he wants to take it back to the Empress
Turak is 12th in line of succession – how does this work?
Turak believes few Darkfriends remain in Seanchan. It seems most people think of Darkfriends as people who live somewhere else
 

Aduiavas Ida

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I don't think we are ever told how and why Machin Shin waits for them at both the Waygates they try. I doubt Fain ordered it. Fain wants Rand to follow, after all, and figure he will be right behind him. But then, he is insane, so who knows :cheeseeni:

And yes, the Cairhien are insane. They get a little better later in the series, but not by that much...
 
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