The Wheel of Time Re-read (currently reading - Lord of Chaos)

Melina Tashir

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Completely off topic this is the first time during the re-read that I noticed that names of other books come up in previous ones. I mean of course the Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn do but all the others do as well. Funny how I didn't notice it before I suppose....
 

Melina Tashir

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Why is Birgitte watching? Did she follow Egwene, or was she already in the Waste?
From what I understand, Birgitte was watching all dreamers because there were not that many in recent years. Which is why she would have been in the Waste as most of the dreamers were the Wise Ones. She then starts following Egwene and the others. She has also been watching Forsaken. Gaidal kept telling her not to get involved but she said that she couldn't put aside her fight against the Dark. When Moghedian got interested in Nynaeve, Birgitte then became more focused on Nynaeve and Elayne. And then they caught her and the rest is history...
 

Melina Tashir

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Chapter 12
Moiraine has heard of dreamwalkers – what has she heard?


Faile has learned the language of fans – that really doesn’t sound like Davram and Deira

She had that letter from the dreamwalkers didn't she. From the Wise Ones about meeting her at Rhuidean on a certain date. She couldn't believe it at the time as it would take months to get to Waste, which made her wonder if a dreamer can really predict something. And then when Rand mentions the stones she finds out how they are true dream walkers.

As for Faile I always thought she learned it from 'farmgirls'. She always talks about 'farmgirls this or that'. I think she really wanted a more exciting life than sitting around, being called Zarine and being a 'lady'. I mean she did run away to be the Hunter so I would imagine her sneaking around and learning stuff that her parents would disapprove of. I think a lot of stuff she learned was without express permission from the parents. Knives, fighting, etc. She did say that she learned some stuff from her father's soldiers, etc...
 

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Does Perrin tell her? No. Does he ask her advice? No. Does he tell her what he's doing and let her make her own decision about her future? Nope. He lies to her, uses his abilities as a wolfbrother to manipulate her vulnerabilities and hurt. Then has the GALL to be upset when she is "manipulative" a few hours later.

Ayup. :/ Things like this are why I have big issues when people rant on about Faile. They're both very young, and neither of them communicate well with each other, but Perrin *knowing* that what he's doing is hurting her, manipulating her, then getting mad when she does the same thing to be with him...

Yeah, not buying that it's her fault at all.
 

Toral Delvar

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Thoughts on the next group of chapters
Chapter 15
I like Mat's trip here. Totally reckless.
The descriptions are actually interesting here. Normally, descriptions bore me
They are suprisingly helpful 'Should I go home to help my people" doesn't get a "no" but a "you must go to Rhuidean",his second question, "why should I go to Rhuidean?" gets a "If you don't you will die", and his third question, 'why will I die" gets "you will have sidestepped the thread of fate". He then gets three bonus answers to "What fate" - Marry the daughter of the nine moons, die and live again and live once more a part of what was, and to give up half the light of the world to save the world
Is the shaking because there are three people, are because there are two ta'veren?
Why were they afraid of Rand?
Mat feels it is more fun to tweak Moiraine's nose than drop Nynaeve and Egwene in it. If they'd treated me like they treated Mat,I think I'd have given themu p
Mat is apparently a lot more fluent in the Old Tongue than he realised
Chapter 16
Perrin is having bad dreams, though not prophetic ones
Faile has manipulated Loial. She is much better at it than Perrin, but her behaviour here is appalling
Somehow,Perrin decides when they will go, though loial's promise was apparently that Faile would choose - I've never really understood what happened there
Nynaeve really enjoys winding Lan up, which I find amusing for some reason
Rhuidean is about a month away
Chapter 17
Thom sees Moiraine and thinks"Now there was a beautiful woman,with every grace a man could want, including laughing at his quips"
How did he get his injury - a myrddraal did it, but "shadowman steel kills", so is any wouund they give harder to recover?
Has Moiraine only just found out who Thom is, or did she always know? She seems to at least suspect that Thom kiled Taringail
Moiraine is Taringail's youngest half sister. She doesn't seem to care about family, so it's easy to forget that she is Galad,Gawyn and Elayne's aunt
How does she know Tanchico won't kill Thom? "How do I get Thom away from Rand" seems a waste of a question. Her motives here are also decidely bad
Galad doesn't recognise Min when she is Elmindreda
Gawyn asks Min about Elayne and Egwene - risking her cover for his own selfish ends
There is now war in Arad Doman - is this something that spread from Rand and Toman Head, or is it unrelated?
Siuan has not yet learned that Min's viewings can't be avoided
She also thinks that she can deter Galad and Gawyn by having Coulin work them harder - another example of people believing something because they want it to be true
Marim Taim escapes, two Aes Sedai are killed -we might assume this was the plan Joiya talked about, but I think not
In the past few weeks/months Leane has been taken into Siuan's confidence and she knew about Rand. Or at least that is my reading of her lack of surprise
I don't know who murders Sahra. Or even why.
 

Arinna Katal

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How does she know Tanchico won't kill Thom?
I always figured this was a Min thing—Min had seen them together in Baerlon, and Moiraine had said earlier in the book that she knew the face of the man she would marry better than Egwene/Elayne. Her attempt to deflect after she said that made it very clear that she DID know the face of the man she would marry. At this point, she is not married to Thom, and Min’s visions always come true, so she can say with confidence that Thom will survive Tanchico to marry her in the future.
 

Toral Delvar

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Oh yes, that seems likely. We later see Min think that her vision of Moiraine was the only one that had failed, but it isn’t clear if that meant Thom or that Rand would almost certainly fail without the aid of a woman who was dead and gone.
 

Melina Tashir

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Thoughts on the next group of chapters
Chapter 15
Is the shaking because there are three people, are because there are two ta'veren?
Why were they afraid of Rand?
Mat feels it is more fun to tweak Moiraine's nose than drop Nynaeve and Egwene in it. If they'd treated me like they treated Mat,I think I'd have given themu p

I think the shaking is due to there being two ta'veren and then it gets worse when the third person comes in.
I think because he is such a strong ta'veren
I love the fact he likes messing with Moiraine :D

Chapter 16
Somehow,Perrin decides when they will go, though loial's promise was apparently that Faile would choose - I've never really understood what happened there
Nynaeve really enjoys winding Lan up, which I find amusing for some reason

Well it's a bit childish to be honest. Basically because of Loial's promise Faile must decide. Now she wants to inconvenience Perrin because he made her angry. So when he says when they will go, she can't let him decide, otherwise her whole manipulation is for nothing. So she wants to ascertain her dominance "I am the boss! What I say goes!" But then she does understand that it has to happen quick because obviously there is a good reason why Perrin wants to go when he said. So, she gives him the deadline so it appears as if the whole timing thing is her idea not his. If Perrin said that they are leaving next week she would have said today. But because he said today all she could have done is made it in 2 hours. As I said childish from her...

I think the reason we all find it amusing is because he is so serious all the time so it's fun to wind him up :D


Chapter 17
How did he get his injury - a myrddraal did it, but "shadowman steel kills", so is any wouund they give harder to recover?
Has Moiraine only just found out who Thom is, or did she always know? She seems to at least suspect that Thom kiled Taringail
Moiraine is Taringail's youngest half sister. She doesn't seem to care about family, so it's easy to forget that she is Galad,Gawyn and Elayne's aunt
How does she know Tanchico won't kill Thom? "How do I get Thom away from Rand" seems a waste of a question. Her motives here are also decidely bad
Galad doesn't recognise Min when she is Elmindreda

I don't know who murders Sahra. Or even why.

It could be that the injury has not healed properly. He was injured in the scuffle (maybe he fell and broke his leg) which the healed on it's own. There was no Aes Sedai to heal him so it probably healed wrong and he got the limp.
I think she knew who Thom is for a while, but never actually needed/got the chance to remove him from the boys. They got separated in the first book quite quickly. Then she was off with Lan for a while (during 2nd book) she could have found more about him then. I would assume that Min told her about marrying Thom before this. Which is why she probably wanted to know everything about him. She would have known how skilled he is which is why she might have thought Thom can handle Tanchico. Also I agree if she knew she will marry him then it means he will live long enough to meet her again and marry her.
As for the caring for family thing - when they join the Tower it is said a few times that they are now your family. I think that it has been so many years that she was in the Tower. Then 20 years of being Aes Sedai and having all her focus on her mission. Living it, breathing it... Also, I think a lot of these families are not actually close. What with game of houses being played against each other. Most of them are related in some way anyway but they still will kill for the Game.
I don't think Galad paid Min much attention. I think he was a bit star struck with Egwene.

I think it's either Alviarin or Galina who murder Sahra. Probably because they didn't want Siuan to find out that they were asking about Min. And they were asking about Min in order to find more evidence again Siuan to depose her. The less people know about a secret the more likely it is to stay a secret.
 

Toral Delvar

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Well it's a bit childish to be honest. Basically because of Loial's promise Faile must decide. Now she wants to inconvenience Perrin because he made her angry. So when he says when they will go, she can't let him decide, otherwise her whole manipulation is for nothing. So she wants to ascertain her dominance "I am the boss! What I say goes!" But then she does understand that it has to happen quick because obviously there is a good reason why Perrin wants to go when he said. So, she gives him the deadline so it appears as if the whole timing thing is her idea not his. If Perrin said that they are leaving next week she would have said today. But because he said today all she could have done is made it in 2 hours. As I said childish from her..
But it is on Perrin's schedule. Loial makes it pretty clear he is with Perrin and they stop and go when Perrin says, not Faile
 

Melina Tashir

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Yes I know and so does Faile but it's the only way she can control it by saying that he has to be ready at the time she says. It's like when parents have a toddler who is throwing a tantrum, everyone is ready to go and the toddler says "I am not wearing shoes ". It's that last bit of control that they still have. Even though the parents and toddler both know that they'll have to be carried everywhere and won't be able to wonder around. She should have been happy that she managed to trick Loial so that she can go with Perrin but she wanted her little revenge.
 

Alexr al'Petros

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I felt that Faile was trying to make the point that she and Perrin were connected; it was more an expression of love...albeit in a poor way. Similarly, Perrin's attempt to drive Faile away; was because he loved her and didn't want her hurt. Both attempts were less than graceful; but instead showed the immaturity of expression that I would expect at those ages.
 

Toral Delvar

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And the rest of this week. Things finally start to get going
Chapter 18
Perrin thinks he is going home - Mat has outgrown Emonds Field, as has Egwene. I don't think we've seen if Nynaeve or Rand still think of it as home
Perrin says he will beat Faile if she has alerted Moiraine - I hope this is just a figure of speech, but Gaul at least takes him seriously. Then again, for the Aiel, violence is often the answer
I think I must have misremembered who was in charge - Loial is worried that she might have made him leave without Perrin
Do we see what sets the Stone ringing?
Perrin likes horses - it was one of the reasons he asked to be a blacksmiths apprentice
The waygate - 'It appeared more a length of gray wall than a gate, and the wall of a palace at that, thickly carved in leaves and vines so finely-done that they seemed almost as alive as the bushes had been" - Is this basically the same as other waygates we see, or do they all look different?
Perrin enters the Ways first, annoying Faile
Chapter 19
Elayne is annoyed at how badly the Tairen nobles have treated the people, so I guess she isn't all bad. From what we have seen, she's probably right that she would get a cheerful smile or respectful word of greeting
With Egwene gone, Elayne is no longer in the peacemaker role, and so can take on the "bickering with my companion" role
Elayne is shocked at the nose rings - I guess they really do know next to nothing of Sea Folk culture
She is surprised there is no tiller. I didn't know about tillers, so looked it up. They are generally found on smaller boats as the force for larger ships would be too large - I think likely this is just Elayne's ignorance, rather than a hint that the One Power is used to steer the ship
Stairs on a ship are called ladders. Apparently this is also a thing in our world
They give money as the gift of passage - about as blatant as "this is really a payment" as you can get. Nynaeve gers frustrated and says so outright
We hear of the Jendai prophecy - it's not clear what they expect to get from it, or if they actualy do, but "the White Tower shall be broken in his name" happens
"He saluted me like a deckboy" - does this mean the way someone would salute a deckboy, or the way a deckboy salutes someone?
At the end, Wavefinfder rises - likely the same incident Perrin felt
Chapter 20
Coine remarks on how honest Juilin is
Elayne vaguely recognises Thom - how old was she when Thom left?
Elayne thinks Nynaeve is behaving like Moiraine by not telling Thom and Juilin why they are going to Tanchico, which is absolutely fair
Thom asks her to call him "Thom", and she says she is not "my lady" but "Mistress Trakand", rather than "Elayne". I don't really get these weird formalities of address
"Tom Merrilin. Not a gleeman - but what? Who can say? Not eating fire, but breathing it" - Merlin is a very famous wizard
Thom has been asking about the land beyond the Aiel waste for years, but had never heard it called Shara
We learn that Jorin (and many Windfinders) can channel. If we hadn't realised Aviendha could, this should have told us
 

Aduiavas Ida

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We do learn what sets the Stone ringing. Neither Perrin nor Elayne is at all relevant for that :P it is a case of people always assuming that something is about them...

Honestly, I love how Perrin just enter the Ways without waiting for Faile. I hate pretty much everything else about that whole situation, but that one part is sort of funny.
 

Toral Delvar

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Another week! We move out of Tear, and the story gets going
Chapter 21
Moiraine has arranged for the bond to be passed to Nynaeve if she dies - when did she do that? Did something through the redstone doorway change when she thinks she might die?
Moiraine tells Egwene she should bring Rand to confide in him and that Rand needs someone he can trust. She's right of course, but I think Egwene has already burned those bridges
Apparently Moiraine has suspicions about Windfinders (ie that they can channel)
Moiraine has noticed Rand and Elayne, but didn't realise Egwene was no longer interested
Moiraine now thinks she must have been blind to not realise that three ta'veren had to be connected. Better late than never
The prophecies "never mentioned companions" - again, this is because they don't understand them. While it doesn't strictly mention "companions" they do mention Mat and Perrin
Apparently Moiriane knows of the secrets Faile has been keeping from Perrin - probably who she is
Moiraine thinks there is no difference between Rand sending men to feed Cairhien and to conquer it. I disagree
Rand's behaviour here seems pretty reasonable to me, for for some reason, it causes Egwene to worry if he is mad. Most likely because she can't understand what he did, so decides it must be wrong
Chapter 22
Egwene disaproves of the Aiel taking the fifth, but when Rand challenges her on this, re-thinks it. She isn't content to just do that though, she has to be better than Rand, so pretends he disaproved. For some reason, he finds this amusing.
She is annoyed that Rand didn't tell Elayne he wanted her to stay. He sees no point in doing so, as she couldn't stay. I'm not sure who I agree with here, but Egwene irritates me, so I'm on Rand's side
There are four Portal stones in Tear. When told this, Moiraine states that they are not that common
Aviendha thinks Rand has treated Elayne badly. I don't know what he did
Chapter 23
Moiraine heals Rand without permission, and quite rightly, he tells her to ask. Egwene decides this is childish
How did Lan learn so much about the Aiel just from fighting them?
How did Rand learn the words to enter Rhuidean?
I was amused by how many knives Mat had
Melaine has spoken with Aes Sedai? Which ones? When?
They have wine in the Waste - traded, or do they grow their own?
The dreamwalkers saw Moiraine demand to go through the rings on multiple occasions
Apart from Rhuidean and stedding, what places can't be entered in Tel'aran'rhiod?
 

Melina Tashir

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Moiraine has arranged for the bond to be passed to Nynaeve if she dies - when did she do that? Did something through the redstone doorway change when she thinks she might die?

I think she did this during the 2nd book when they were away from the others. If not at the beginning of 2nd book when she was going away on her own.

She is annoyed that Rand didn't tell Elayne he wanted her to stay. He sees no point in doing so, as she couldn't stay. I'm not sure who I agree with here, but Egwene irritates me, so I'm on Rand's side

I think maybe this is RJs interpretation of women. That maybe we need such emotional reassurances? Maybe thinking men think - you can't possibly stay so why ask. While he might think women would overthink... I don't know how to explain... but yes Rand is in the right.

I think what Egwene and Aviendha might expect for him to show some emotion, but he is already trying to distance himself from them here. So that they are not hurt because of their connection to him. He certainly wouldn't want Forsaken, especially Lanfear to know how he feels about Elayne.

How did Rand learn the words to enter Rhuidean?

He read it in the books... where he read about portal stones and such...

How did Lan learn so much about the Aiel just from fighting them?

I would assume that they do this by scouting and such. I mean Lan is good if he fought Aiel and survived and they all know about him. I am sure he would have observed them. Also they would have fought near the border so if the trollocs attacked mid fight I bet they would both join forces against them and then return to fighting each other. He might have also observe a fight between Aiel and trollocs without joining in the fight immediately.
 

Toral Delvar

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I've always really liked these chapters, the gradual reveal of the Aiel history and the glimpses into the past
Chapter 24
I don't know why or how Rand knows he has to be an Aiel clan chief
Why was Rhuidean built so large? Who built it? There doesn't seem to be enough Jenn to do it, even if it was unfinished
We get to see a lot of ter'angreal, most of which I don't think we ever learn a use
How does Avendesora create a feeling of contentment or peace?
I find it amusing that Mat is trying to persuade himself that he wouldn't go in after Rand
Mat is pretty dumb here - it's a different doorway and different people, but he is still expecting the same rules
He makes three requests - 1) to have his memory holes filled, a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the One Power and to be away from them and back to Rhuidean. The Ashenderai seems to be a bonus
Chapter 25
Mandein is about 40 and a Sept Chief - are there no Clans at this time? Rhuidean is half finished, so the Jenn must have worked on it for some time after
His wife had laid the bridal wreath at his feet, so that tradition goes back to at least this time
They have already adopted a tradition of wooden chiefs chair's
The Septs whose chief didn't go to the meeting died - were the first clan chiefs the ones who went in? If so, how did they decide which Septs, unless all the surviving Septs became clans
By this time, the Aiel are already fighting each other
He sees Aes Sedai and recognises them by Ageless faces - Is the oath rod in use, or is he just using the word "Ageless" in a different way
Carrying a sword is forbidden, Mandein thinks spears are weapon enough for any man
The Aiel have been in the Waste a few generations at least - his great great grandfather, Rhodric led the Aiel against the men who tried to invade.
We actually here the Cara'carn prophecy as first given - including "he will take you back and he will destroy you". Rand doesn't destroy them
The Aiel don't like to think of the Jenn as Aiel, but Mandein realises they are
Chapter 26
We see Rhodric at 20. Assuming a generation is about 25 years, the scene with Mandein would be about 120 years later
His grandfather is Jeordam - white haired. They are just west of the waste and south of kinslayer's dagger - how did it take them over three thousand years to learn where this happened?
This is in the middle of a drought, which might explain why the lack of water in the waste when they first enter don't put them off
The Aiel disaprove of horses already, but we don't see any real reason
Rhodric doesn't understand the difference between the Jenn and the Aiel
This is just before the construction of Tar Valon, so sometime in the late 90s AB
Rhodric knows the Aiel are the people of the Dragon - it is not told to others, but is not a secret name among the Aiel and is spoken aloud when they receive their spears
The third vision is Jeordam at 18, so probably about 50 years before we see Rhodric, around 50AB. Jeordam thinks he still holds to the Way because he hasn't held a sword
There are 10 camps - probably means 10 septs and Jeordam's is the largest about 200 people. There are more Jenn than Aiel
Men steal Aiel children
Morin is apparently the first woman to take a spear. She says the spear is her husband now, but the reason she takes it is to free her daughter
There are three Avendesora cuttings, the Aiel don't seem to think much of them
The final vision is Lewin, as a young man, so maybe 40 years earlier. He plans to sneak past men who stole his sister
He and his friends kill the men, but are appalled by doing so - Are these the first Aiel to kill?
 

Toral Delvar

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Chapter 26
Lewin is 6, so this would be 10-15 years before the previous vision where Lewin was one of the first Aiel to kill, Adan is his grandfather. One of Jaren's children was a boy who could channel, another a girl who was a dreamer.
They have been travelling a long time - Sulwin's grandfather told stories he heard as a boy of living in safety and singing. He leaves to search for the song, his group eventually will become the Tua'athon
Next vision, Adan is a young man - maybe 50 years earlier. The Aiel have been greatly reduced, from tens of thousands to a few thousand.
One of Jonai's children (Adan's brother I think) could channel, but was sent away. Jonai has gone gray
They had met an Aes Sedai, who took some sa'angreal and claimed Ishamael was still free
Adan has no interest in the chora cuttings
The Ogier they meet are beginning to experience the longing
The next vision, Adan is 10 and so perhaps 15 years before they meet the Ogier. Jonai is given the charge of taking the objects of the Power to safety. I think the task was a distraction, and they jut wanted to give the Aiel something to do. The Breaking is in full swing and there are still many male Aes Sedai and at least some of the cities of the Age of Legends still exist
Callandoor has just been created at this time, and they are about to give the Green man his long task
At this time, the Aiel are known as the children of the Dragon, but they don' t like it
There are enough Aiel left here to populate a city
Jonai's wife Alnora has black hair - are the Aiel later all red heads? She is also a Dreamer
The penultimate vision is of Coumin, Jonai's father when the Dark One was re-sealed
We see seed singing - the Aiel combining with Ogier and a Green Man to somehow help crops grow. Only the men it seems. I think this is probably the origin of the later legends about singing
Coumin doesn't believe in a world without Myrddraal, Trollocs or the Forsaken - this seems odd if the war was only 10 years
Training for Aes Sedai apparently begins very young - Coumin was 10 when he was rejected.
He sees a soldier and thinks that soldiers begin training at 10, so there would have been soldiers before the War of the Power
At the end, he sees his great grandfather Charn has been murdered
The final vision is Rand as Charn, on his 25th birthday (well, name day)
He sees the after effects of the bore being drilled
As Rand gets out, he sees Mat, hanging and gives him CPR
Dust forms into figures that attack them - another bubble of evil
It is dawn as they leave
Chapter 27
Faile has been hitting Perrin again, so he hit her back.
Just as they get to the Waygate, they are attacked by Shadowspawn, then Machin Shin arrives
Chapter 28
Perrin goes into Tel'aran'rhiod - he has a hammer instead of the axe
He sees windows in the sky with visions of the world - these all seem metaphorical and not relating to anything specific
We meet Slayer, who is in the dream in the flesh and chases him to the Tower of Ghenjei,which Slayer enters
He also meets Birgitte and has a conversation with he
 

Toral Delvar

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I think we can see the origins of many of the Aiel beliefs in these flashes
1) no handling a sword
2) Avoiding the Tua'athon
3) Taking the fifth?- the first time they killed, they took everything and split it five ways
4) Being more honourable to touch an armed opponent without killing them? - seems like this would derive from the way of the leaf
5) veiling - covering the face while killing
We also see the possible origins of maidens of the spear I think she says of the spear, 'This is my husband now", but the "Maidens can't have children" must have come later
We also don't see the origin of the special status of Wise Ones or Blacksmiths
 

Aduiavas Ida

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Oh, there is SO MUCH in those two chapters, I will talk more about it when I get there, but those chapters are one of the main reasons this book is among my favourite books in the whole series!
I really, really hope we get a whole episode devoted to this in the TV-series, though I doubt it :(
 

Toral Delvar

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Next set of chapters, pretty slow, as there isn't much action, but plenty of really important things happen
Chapter 29
Plants
Chokevine, sawleaf, feathertop
Egwene has written letters home, but Perrin hasn't. He feels bad, but apart from the time in Fal Dara, she really has had much more opportunity
Bain and Chiad give Marin a bowl with a "fanciful creature, half horse, half fish" - I assume this is a seahorse. Though perhaps it has the head of a fish and the body of a horse, like a piscine centaur
Perrin's family have all been killed - they think it Trollocs. He gives up his plan to be hanged
The Two Rivers folk think they can reason with the Whitecloaks and that they need them
Chapter 30
Perrin feels that because he cried at learning his family was dead, he is not as strong as he thought. This sort of foolishness is more what we expect from Rand, and we don't really see much more of it from him
Marin and Bran react pretty well to Loial, but Cenn takes him for a Trolloc
The whitecloaks stole 6 of Bran's books, claiming they were blasphemous
Marin suggests that Cenn's wife could have him sleeping in a barn. I think this is the only time we hear of a wife - unless I misread what she says
We end the chapter with Perrin's group being taken to meet Aes Sedai - I don't think we had met Tomas at this point, so wouldn't know he was Verin's Warder
 
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