The Wheel of Time Re-read (currently reading - Lord of Chaos)

[Ephrem Elpidius]

I know all of you are a bit ahead of me, but I will catch up! I just wanted to vent (I am frustrated how little attention the Green Man actually gets in this story arc) about the Great Hunt re-read I am doing... so very early on in the book, when the Amyrlin Seat comes to Fal Dara to meet Moraine... like politics immediately takes over during the Sedai meeting, there is no excitement at all or info shared about The Green Man and meeting him twice or him dying... like even the Browns would perk up by that...

Maybe they mention it later, but I feel like its something in a normal world Moiraine would have mentioned immediately upon their arrival... I think the fatal flaw of Moraine and Suian Sanche is that they kept one to many secrets and the others were upset by it in later books. it's been 20 years though or so... so I may just be remembering wrong.


side note, if I ever had a daughter someday, I think I want to name her Moraine, I don't know why, that name has always seemed really pretty to me, plus the famous Moraine Lake is also very beautiful/cherished.

 

[Toral Delvar]

I got distracted this week with merit stuff, but two more chapter thoughts
Chapter 3
Faile seems to know a lot. Moiraine probably knows who she is (I think it is later revealed she suspects some things, but does not know. If they know her name is Bashere, that might at least make Moiraine wonder, even if shedoesn'tknow Davram's family)
Perrin gets jealous when Torean looks at Faile. She likes this but is annoyed by it. This is the start of her descent into "everyone must behave and think the Saldaean way and I'm going to sulk rather than talk about it if Perrin doesn't act like I expect him to"
Faile tell Perrin that Berelain is after Rand and has no interest in him - which is amusing given all the trouble she causes (almost all of which could be avoided by Faile acting like a grown up)
Rhuarc has daughters older than Berelain - I'm not sure that we hear any more of his family, other than Amys and the other wife, who's name I forget.
Apparently, being Healed while holding the Power helps you recover quickly
Lan defends Rand when he talks about going to Shayol Ghul, contradicting Moiraine
Moiraine tells Rand that he could not channel anything apart from spirit while asleep- this contradicts Mat's story from book 2 about a man flattening his village in his sleep. I'm going to go with Moiraine here, though I suspect her knowledge is based on what people have repeated for a couple of thousand years rather than anything real
Bubbles of evil - Given how frequent and severe they become, the world must have been a mess just before the Dark One was Sealed at the end of the Age of Legends
The Aiel prophecy says the Stone must fall before He who comes with the Dawn appeats to take them back to what was theirs - I always thought this meant the Way of the leaf, but that doesn't happen
Chapter 4
Mat has apparently being attracting the interest of many women
Mat gets "strange feelings" when he is thinking of leaving - are these real "something is about to happen" feeling, or just ta'veren "stay where you are" ones?
Thom thinks Mat has a greatness he refuses to recognise clinging to his back

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Ugh Faile :tug She seems to change from being exactly who Perrin needs at times to being the most annoying female character (which is a highly contested position :tug ) Her jealousy with Berelain is one of her absolute worst traits...

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

Ugh Faile She seems to change from being exactly who Perrin needs at times to being the most annoying female character (which is a highly contested position) Her jealousy with Berelain is one of her absolute worst traits...

I have THOUGHTS about this but will hold off until the 25th

 

[Ephrem Elpidius]

Ugh Faile :tug She seems to change from being exactly who Perrin needs at times to being the most annoying female character (which is a highly contested position :tug ) Her jealousy with Berelain is one of her absolute worst traits...

I mean to be fair to Faile, Berelain is a very seductive type character from what I remember... I think most men would struggle resisting Berelain, but Perrin is not most men, so I also agree with you to a degree. I think I was 15 or 16 when I read this particular book though, so my memory of Berelain is probably... very hormone based... :rofl

 

[Toral Delvar]

And the last two from last week
Chapter 5
Moiraine hasn't told anyone Egwene and the others are Aes Sedai, but has let the High Lords believe they are - a lie of ommission
Egwene and Aviendha have become friends - Aviendha seems indifferent to Elayne. Can't blame her there
Nynaeve is only wearing clothes in colours Lan likes
Joiya is not stilled, so the oath not to betray any Black Ajah plans still holds
Amico knew Liandrin, Chesmal and Renna - so, two would have been in her heart and one other. Were the others full hearts? Maybe 12 of them were 4 hearts and Liandrin, Chesmal or Rianna were the extra. How does the heart system work when new people join anyway? Are there many of these "groups of three" that only have two people and they are waiting for a new member? Are Aes Sedai numbers consistent or decreasing? We seem to have about 1000 of them, and they seem to live 250-300 years, so we probably have 3-4 die of old age each year. I don't think we have that many raised - We were told there were about 40 novices, but only about 10 (I think) would be raised, so maybe 20 in total, if it takes an average of 15 years to be raised, we would be seeing 1-2 raised each year, and numbers are decreasing, so there should always be a place for a new Black Ajah member
How did Liandrin find out about the thing to control Rand?
Amico has lost the Ageless look - this took a few days?
The plan Joiya claims for Liandrin seems very ambitious for a random Black Ajah member
Chapter 6
Elayne can see the glow around Moiraine, but Moiraine can still weaves much faster than her
Moiraine says she could wager she knows the face of the man who she wil marry better than either knows their future husband. Then she says perhaps she meant they were just equally ignorant -weird way of phrasing things
Elayne and Moiraine both think that war will come
The Prophecy of the Dragon talks about leading the Spears to war. This is about the Aiel (despite Moiraine previously saying the Aiel were not mentioned), but she thinks she can force it to mean something else
Moiraine says questions about the Shadow can have dire consequences - what questions did Rand ask?
Egwene thinks that Berelain had previously cast eyes at Rhuarc. I'm pretty sure she is imagining things there

 

[Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum]

Getting caught up. I just started SR! (Considering I was halfway through TDR earlier today, that's an accomplishment. )

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

ok it's the 25th! [cracks knuckles]

Ugh Faile She seems to change from being exactly who Perrin needs at times to being the most annoying female character (which is a highly contested position) Her jealousy with Berelain is one of her absolute worst traits...

I do think it's extremely unfortunate that the few times we get Faile's POV, all RJ seems to care about conveying is how jealous she is of Berelain. But on this re-read, now that I think I have a better handle on their relationship dynamic, I'm starting to get so very annoyed with Perrin. After he goes to Loial and finds out how Faile's manuevered things so that he can't pull any stunts to keep her from going to the Two Rivers, he is so upset and offended that she would "trick" and "bully" him and Loial like that.

EXCEPT

he just did that to her!

"I will be going alone, Faile, Just Loial and me. I will do what has to be done. Without you. ... She looks a pleasant armful, Berelain. What man wouldn't want her on his lap?" The hurt on her face banded his chest with iron, but he made himself go on. "When I am done at home, I may go to Mayene. She asked me to come, and I might."
... she would not be sorry to see the last of him now; that was what was important. She would go find her adventure somehwere else, safe from Whitecloaks and ta'veren and bubbles of evil. That was all that was important.
​

He lies, he hurts her deliberately, he knows she's jealous and he gives her a reason to be knowing it'll make her angry and hurt. The benevolent sexism here is just making me gag. He's making all these decisions assuming he can predict exactly what she'd do-- what she'd do, in fact, if he goes on telling her nothing! He so much doesn't even remotely consider the possibility of telling her anything that he thinks her only possible reaction will be based on surprise and shock! Just! Ugh! MEN! Is she capable? Nope. Oh, she can save his life multiple times against Trollocs in the Stone, but a few Whitecloaks that she knows to prepare for, that's just too much! Is she his equal? Nope. Can she make her own damn decisions? Nope.

Like, if this were r/relationshipadvice, I'd just be shouting "girl DUMP HIM he ain't WORTH THIS." But, given what he's done to her, and how he's completely shut her out, and how he is so ridiculously stubborn .. and given that she's decided to stay with him (good thing, too, given what happens) ... he's left her with only bad choices. Break up with him, or figure out a way to get to the Two Rivers he can't possibly prevent.

ANYHOO I don't have strong feelings about this even a little bit, haha.

***

I'm also pissed at Mat! He catcalls Berelain in the Stone, and when she ignores him (because of course she would, tuning out catcallers is probably the only way she can possibly get anywhere), he shouts at her that until and unless he sexually assaults her "he expects a civil word for a civil word!" Like MY GOD. MEN. UGH.

I'm really glad these characters eventually pull their heads out of their butts.

***

How did Liandrin find out about the thing to control Rand? ...
The Prophecy of the Dragon talks about leading the Spears to war. This is about the Aiel (despite Moiraine previously saying the Aiel were not mentioned), but she thinks she can force it to mean something else

Well, this is post-Seanchan-invasion, so I think it's likely given her involvement with them that she has a basic understanding now of what an a'dam does and what it looks like, which might have sparked a memory of an exhibit in Tanchio. Or someone's memory, who then told her. I do think it's plot-hole-ish that Egwene sees the male a'dam on her first glance around the Tanchico museum, and even though she can sense "anguish" come from it, doesn't even have a flicker of emotional reaction. We can tell as the books go on that Egwene has PTSD from being made damane, and as an abuse survivor with PTSD, seeing something even remotely like an a'dam would have caused me to physically recoil. Even if she's later like "oh, it has two bracelets, not one, it's a different color, you're fine," the fact that there's no reaction at all? Fishy.

Also, I don't think Moiraine is trying to "force" it to be about something else, I think she's just thinking inside of her own context too much, being a little egocentric.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

I find myself annoyed at the back and forth about men and Rand in particular in chapter 5 and 6. It takes too many pages and are not really relevant. In fact, I feel that this book takes too long to get started, but that may be just because I know all the good things to come :P

Also, why did Elayne go with Moiraine just to wait outside? She was not mentioned at all in the previous chapter :scratch It seems very strange to me.

These chapters also reinforces that it is Egwene and Aviendha who should have been first-sisters, not Elayne. But of course, Rand makes it necessary that Aviendha and Elayne become friends...

 

[Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum]

quick thought:

I finished The Dragon Reborn yesterday, and it hit me today that I had imagined Rosamund Pike as Moiraine in the scene where she balefires Bel'al, and it gave me the warm fuzzies. <3

 

[Laralelle Susandrea]

Yeah there's a lot about Elayne that made me think "Why?" or sometimes, "That's not how it's supposed to be." She does so many things out of "necessity" and it just annoys me. But yeah, she annoys me.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

quick thought:

I finished The Dragon Reborn yesterday, and it hit me today that I had imagined Rosamund Pike as Moiraine in the scene where she balefires Bel'al, and it gave me the warm fuzzies. <3

I really, really want to see that. It is one of her most badass moments, I hope they do it justice!

 

[Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum]

Elayne in the early books...I love Elayne, and when I see stuff like that, I have to put my writer hat on, and remember that maybe RJ had big plans for her, and just wasn't...sure where to put her quite yet, but she still needed to be included.

As far as Egwene and Aviendha being first-sisters rather than her and Elayne...in the end, when they're fully fleshed out, I think Aviendha and Elayne are the natural choice. In the beginning, I think they have a lot of potential.

 

[Toral Delvar]

These chapter seem mostly to be set up - a lot of hanging around talking, and not much doing, which is a big change from the pace of the second half of book three
Chapter 7
Elayne thinks the Aiel "had only turned back to the Waste after fighting the Allied nations to a standstil during three blood soaked days and nights before Tar Valon itself." I wish they'd make their mind up about if people knew the Aiel went home because they did what they came to do
Rand is far too suspicious and antagonistic when Elayne and Egwene comes in, but it is understandable, everyone is trying to manipulate him. Egwene's response is just childish. She is far more concerned with just declaring she is mature and not with actualy behaving in a mature manner. We soon see Rand decend into not trusting anyone - I wonder if it could have been different, if instead of thinking "Everyone is trying to manipulate him, how can I join in?", She'd have thought "everyone is trying to manipulate him, how can I help him?:
"you are as strong as I" - pure arrogance here from Egwene
Demonstrating he can feel saidar is remarkably easy. How did Aes Sedai miss it for three thousand years
Egwene annoys me so much in this chapter
Rand can't yet consistently tell the flows apart
We learn a little of the mechanics of channeling "I took in the heat from the tables and spread it into the stones of the fireplace" - how does that even work?
Egwene can't accept that Rand's feelings have also changed, so decides that his simple relief is him lying and putting on a brave face
Chapter 8
Rand tries to make a flower out of feathers. I've never understood what that means
He realises Egwene and Elayne planned it out, but seems to believe her when she denies it
Elayne thinks Rand now has a commanding presence
Egwene and co tied Mat with the Power a second time to steal back the Amyrlin's letter
When Mat hears of the Ter'angreal, he asks if it like Bili, spend a night and come ou ten years later with a purse that's always full of Gold. Egwene tells him not to be a fool, but the Bili story is probably based on tales of the Finn and Mat's question isn't that unreasonable
Chapter 9
Mat is always bumping into Moiriane, which is amusing, as from her point of view, he is constantly managing to avoid her
this switches from Mat's pov to Perrins. I found this confusing. Then to Egwene's and then Elayne
The Aiel do seem barbaric - killing someone because you are jealous is viewed as reasonable
Rand is really developing a temper
Selene finally admits to being Lanfear
She says there are two more powerful sa'angreal than Callandoor. We eventually see both of them
What is it with women being flowers in full bloom compared to buds?
Lanfear goes to basically worshiping the Dark One to suggesting overthrowing him and the Creator in one breath
Who sends the Gray man?

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

I have to say, I like the scene with Egwene, Elayne and Rand.
People trying to work together :eek Communication!
This will become so rare later in the series, and even later in this book, so I cherish it.
Egwene doesn't realize just how strong Rand is, but I can't blame her. Then trying to help him learn to channel. It is of course also helpful to the readers in realizing the difference.

Elayne and Rand alone is much more annoying. Especially since Rand keeps focusing on it so much for the rest of the book :tug
Mat coming to Egwene for advice is cool. I wonder if it is ta'veren at work that makes her tell him of the doorway. He certainly would never have gone to Rhuidean if it wasn't for that...

And then there is Lanfear. *sigh* She is obviously crazy, but there is some reason in her madness.
Who sent the Trollocs though? Was it Sammael, or just Darkfriends in general? I think we learn at one point that it was Semirhage, on orders from "someone"? that sent the other group of Trollocs to attack the first group...
My heart aches everytime I read about Rand trying to Heal the little girl :cry

 

[Toral Delvar]

but a few Whitecloaks that she knows to prepare for, that's just too much! Is she his equal? Nope. Can she make her own damn decisions? Nope.

She can't help prepare for the Whitecloaks though. Perrin's plan was to hand himself over so they can hang him.It's only when he learns his family is dead and that doing so won't save them that he decides to fight.

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

Does Perrin tell her? No. Does he ask her advice? No. Does he tell her what he's doing and let her make her own decision about her future? Nope. He lies to her, uses his abilities as a wolfbrother to manipulate her vulnerabilities and hurt. Then has the GALL to be upset when she is "manipulative" a few hours later.

 

[Toral Delvar]

Chapter 11
Egwene thinks her book on Tarabon is 50 years old but nothing of consequence would have changed in that time – I think she’s right, but it does show how slow the pace of change is. We see later, when Rand starts up the accademies, that once this happens, scientific progress really zooms along
She tries Tel’aran’rhiod without the ring and manages it – was the ring doing anything for her at all?
Egwene’s argument for why she should be the only one to go seems poor to me
Corianin died 474 years earlier – over a hundred and fifty years before the oldest Aes Sedai was born, though some of the Kin were alive then
She has been having more dreams – one of Rand building a wall between himself and everyone, but she doesn’ttry and do anything about this.
The aiel fighting each other and throwing away weapons are a result of what Rand reveals about their history,the Seanchan woman with Mat isTuon – we learn very soon he is fated to marry the daughter of the nine moons, but I don’t remember if we know the Court of the Nine Moons is Seanchan yet, Perrin is fighting Slayer – the face changes between Isam and Luc, Galad in white is likely joining the Whitecloaks, Gawyn with eyes full of pain and hatred is him being a bitter jealous child.
In the palace, the animal could be a S’redit – they were mentioned in book 2, but she could have missed them, or some other animal not extant. I don’t know what the bear like best is, the long necked one a probably giraffe
There are rats and pigeons, gulls and dogs but not horses
Why is Birgitte watching? Did she follow Egwene, or was she already in the Waste?
She considers trying to envision Liandrin. We were just discussing aphantasia in another thread, but I can’t do this.
She lies to Amys
Chapter 12
We learn of Aiel marriage customs
Egwene decides she needs to go to the Waste to learn. She is willing to let Nynaeve and Elayne have the ter’angreal
Egwene and Nynaeve are shocked at the idea Joiya and Amico could be killed to punish them. I don’t know why this would be shocking to them. They also missed the fourth possibility – they were killed to make them think they had told the truth
Moiraine has heard of dreamwalkers – what has she heard?
Chapter 13
Mat was also saved by Trollocs, but he managed to kill a gray man first. The other Shadowspan had intended to kill him
Despite Rand taking the Stone, some don’t believe he is the Dragon Reborn
People take Mat for a Lord
He learns of Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers but Perrin has already heard and is going back. Mat isn’t even able to say he will go
Chapter 14
Berelain has set her sight on Perrin, but he is clearly not interested. If Faile was more mature and less insular, she would see this and there would never have been any issue.
He doesn’t want Faile to go with him, as he intends to hand himself over so they can hang him and he is afraid she’d end up being hanged as well, but he deals with this poorly. He really isn’t cut out for manipulation and what he does backfires immensely, by trying to use Berelain to hurt Faile, he sets a deep and long lasting rift between them that causes problems until the end of the series.
Faile has learned the language of fans – that really doesn’t sound like Davram and Deira

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

was the ring doing anything for her at all?
Gawyn with eyes full of pain and hatred is him being a bitter jealous child.
Mat isn’t even able to say he will go
that really doesn’t sound like Davram and Deira

Egwene: "She could remember how using the ring stone felt, the step into Tel'aran'rhiod." I think the ring was helpful as a learning tool, at the very least.

Gawyn: Bitter jealous child, for real

Mat: Reading these scenes as recently as I had, the way the show decided to handle Mat's backstory was actually pretty unsurprising to me. This, plus some of the stuff he thinks about his father. I don't remember exactly where this was, but he describes his father as clever and quick-witted, that no one can put anything over on him and if they try they end up holding the "greasy end of the stick" or something like that. With a less rosy view, clever and quick-witted can become sly and underhanded fairly easily.

There's also been Something to Mat's anxiety about going back home. RJ puts it in terms of not wanting to settle down there, but there's an edge to it that is strongly reminiscent of one of my good friends-- she is allergic to putting down roots. Starts feeling trapped and panicky whenever she's clearly settling into a place. She lives on a boat now. In my friend's case, it's obviously linked to a lot of trauma for her, and I think that storytelling path makes sense for Mat. It gives substance and a name and a reason for Mat's restlessness.

Faile: maybe she didn't learn fans and the sa'sara from her mom, but I can think of a lot of teenagers who learned schmexy stuff their parents didn't want them finding out about, ha.

 

[Toral Delvar]

That's true, but the sa'sara and fans are very opposite things. Faile does think about fans as though she has used them and that she won't do it again. It does seem that Saldaen noblewomen, at least at this point in the books, spend a lot of time lying on couches getting people to do everything for them by waving a fan around. I suppose I can see her parents teaching her the culture (well, not the sasara, but I can't see her mother communicating with fans