The Wheel of Time Re-read (currently reading - The Fires of Heaven)

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Reread (Spoilers)' started by Ilverin Matriam, May 2, 2021.

  1. Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum

    Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum Anime Sensei Assistant TVT Editor Aes Sedai

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    As a roleplayer, I also want to know how making him lucid would work.

    As I got to that part (and knowing how it goes), I also thought it would be crueler to leave him without clarity. Just have him waste away... But then we wouldn't have Dragonmount.
     
  2. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    No, Ishamael wanted him to realize what he had done.
     
  3. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    I would presume that it involves the True Power and given that The True Power is Shai'tain's essence it being able to heal insanity easier than the One power is sensible. Ishamael is probably the single most experienced person in the setting with The True Power so him doing things that seem impossible somewhat makes sense

    We honestly don't see much of what the True Power is fully capable of and how it is different from the One Power aside from Traveling being vastly different.

    Remember, Ishamael and The Dark One both want to break The Dragon and Convert him to their side because that is the only way they actually win so Lews Therin just dying doesn't really DO anything.
     
  4. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    I do wonder what they expected Rand to do. Does the Dark One retain memories of previous turns of the Wheel? If so, it seems hard to him to make mistakes, or is he more of a force, and only really takes on any sort of personality once the bore is made and he is able to more directly contact people?
     
  5. Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum

    Leala ni al'Dareis t'al'Caleum Anime Sensei Assistant TVT Editor Aes Sedai

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    I understand, but that train of thought was mostly my true-crime-consumption brain talking.
     
  6. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Director of Research and Records Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    that would work on me :look

    I assume that Ishamael knows what the madness actually is (we see Nynaeve have a glimpse of it when trying to heal Rand in book 7/8/9?), so he would know how it works and how to remove it.

    Was Ilyena a chaneller? Do we know this?

    Isn't he also supposed to be sealed, I don't get it, was he never sealed? His ramblings when he first introduces himself to Rand are making it somewhat unclear. :scratch

    From Chapter 14:
    “Fool, I have never been bound!” [...] "I stood at Lews Therin Kinslayer's shoulder when he did the deed that named him. It was I who told him to kill his wife, and his children, and all his blood, and every living person who loved him or whom he loved. [...] He could have struck at me, then. He could not have won, but he could have tried. Instead he called down his precious One Power upon himself, so much that the earth split open and reared up Dragonmount to mark his tomb. "A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south..."

    Or maybe he dies after several hundred years and DO ressurects him every time? :p
     
  7. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    I think it is a matter of The Dark One's nature more than anything, The Dark One has a bad case of COPE going on in the last book and doesn't seem to know everything. I think the Implication the last book is making is that the Dark One can't win because it doesn't understand that the actual battle it is having is about Hearts and Minds and not one of murdering your foes.

    I think Ishamanel is only partially sealed and was father "out" from the bore than the others, we see at the end of this book that some forsaken weren't quite as frozen in time as the others.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  8. Satara al'Caelahn

    Satara al'Caelahn Aes Sedai Head of the White Ajah Moderator

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    Here's my take on it. I think that there's a sort of natural barrier between the DO and the Creator... and the rest of the world. That would explain why the Creator has to work through Rand specifically, and through others, and through the use of ta'veren, the heroes of the horn, etc.

    I've always seen both the Creator and the Dark One, these huge cosmic forces, as being able to influence the pattern, but not able to directly touch the world.

    So when the bore was created, it.. perforated this barrier and let the Dark One touch the world directly which was Not Good for anyone. So the seal was patched, but it was weak. So then later, as we see in the end of the series, Rand restores the barrier to its original state. I don't think that ever means that the DO was "trapped" or "sealed" in any way, but that he was simply restored to where he should have been all along.

    We got to see a world where the Dark One didn't exist at all, and there was NO evil in the world. No conflict. No hardship. It was very... flat and weird and not good. I think that's the type of world we'd see if the Dark One was truly sealed away from the world.
     
  9. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    while he seems to be lying about telling Lews to kill his family, Ba’alzamon is basically saying out right here “yeah I’m Ishamael”,something many seem to have not picked up on
     
  10. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    yeah,I didn’t like that,but had to accept that Sanderson or Jordan have a different theology to me
     
  11. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    I am going to admit I disliked the concept of "The Dark One is the source of all evil even when he is sealed away" but the idea of a world without evil being a bad thing because it removes choice is something of an interesting concept.
     
  12. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    The Companion explains the Ba'alzamon/Ishamael thing.
    Ishamael is only partially bound. He thought he had escaped the bounding, but he was dragged back into the Bore. But he was occasionally out of the Bore, in a cycle about every 1000 years. So that is how he was able to make the Trolloc War happen, and the ruin of Arthur Hawkwing, as he will boast of later.
    That also explains how he is able to appear as he does in the Prologue, since that is after the Sealing of the Bore.
     
  13. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Well one of the books states outright that some of the Aes Sedai think Ishamel is not fully sealed away, I think in Book 4's flashback One of the AoL Aes Sedai state they don't think Ishamael is sealed fully.
     
  14. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Thoughts on the rest. A lot of my thoughts are already in the chapter summaries, but
    1) The "strange person watching" is a pretty familiar fantasy trope. I think Eddings and Tolkien had it, but no doubt others. Tam is the only one to use the flame and the void, so is better with the bow and arrow than anyone else, although I think later we get the impression that two Rivers Bowmen are very good - in part because of the strength of their bows, but also because they are accurate.
    It's a little amusing that Cenn is right that spring wasn't going to come, and that Nynaeve's listening to the wind was off actualy meant something
    When mocking Mat for suggesting it could be one of the Forsaken, Rand suggests that a Myrdraal would be an equally ridiculous thing for the watcher to be
    2) It seems that there is a cultural belief in ghosts. Or at least ghost dogs
    Ewin describes Lan's cloak, and it doesn't seem to spark anything, nor do they think anything of it when they actually see him - I guess the colour shifting cloaks are not a big part of tales of Aes Sedai
    She seems to be giving everyone a coin, but Mat and Rand feel as though they should keep their's, Ewin doesn't - I suspect he just got a normal one. It thought maybe this was a Finder (or she put a finder on it), but am not sure why they would be reluctant to give it up. Perhaps some Blue Ajah trick that they have managed to convince themselves is nothing like compulsion, such as the one that makes people more persuadable.
    3) Again, Cenn is the only one with a sensible reaction to Logain, that he could be a real Dragon and that the Pattern is throwing up false ones for a reason and that the Dark one could be behind the long winter
    They apparently don't tell tales of the Dark one in the Two Rivers - Mat had heard one, but Rand and Perrin hadn't. We also see an early example of people thinking they know things they don't - Perrin simply dismissing any talk of the Dragon Reborn and anyone who thinks he will save the world is a fool
    4) Is Thom's trick of people not being able to pick him up a real thing?
    Somehow, there is a story that the Dragon attempted to free the Dark One
    Does Thom recognise that Moiraine is an Aes Sedai?Seems almost certain. Does she recognise him? Possibly his name, it would depend how famous he was, he was still in Andor as court bard when she was raised.
    5) plenty happens, but nothing specifically noteworthy
    6) The Aiel war was for Laman's sin - so, it is common knowledge that they came because he chopped down avendesora, but it is also widely believed that they were turned back. Really, Tam should have connected them coming to kill Laman and going once he was killed, but apparently not.
    Rand hadn't heard the Avendesora story before, evn though the Aiel War did make enough of an impact that people still refered to Aiel.
    Rand finds out he was born on a mountain, though no reason for him to connect it to Dragonmount

    Overall, a fairly solid start, 3 chapters of world building then the action starts. I've heard the set up was to give it a familiar feel, and I suppose there is that - simple village folk attacked by an outside evil, just as a powerful magic user arrives
     
  15. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    There is also the fact that if you miss a shot, the wolf eats you or your sheep which is going to be a very bad time for the Farmer.
    There is also the fact that Two River's bows themselves are implied to be Longbows while Aiel and Shainarains use Short bows.
     
  16. Nebka Galyn

    Nebka Galyn Knight of the Glitterati Aes Sedai

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    Oh wow... finally started reading and hope to catch up today.

    I had never read The Ravens chapter so thought that was interesting
     
  17. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Director of Research and Records Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    Several of my musing over the last week's chapters:

    Chapter 1: Rand tells Mat that he felt the Myrdraal hated HIM, but Mat hasn't gotten that impression:
    Rand: “I'm not laughing. He scared me, too. I could swear he hated me, that he wanted to kill me.”
    Mat: “I don't know about hating, Rand, but he was scary enough anyway."
    Is that some sort of indication that Rand is more important, or is it just Mat not noticing things?

    Chapter 2: Rand's thoughts when he first sees Moiraine:
    "A wide belt of woven gold encircled her waist, and on the second finger of her left hand was a gold ring in the shape of a serpent biting its own tail. He had certainly never seen a ring like that, though he recognized the Great Serpent, an even older symbol for eternity than the Wheel of Time."
    There seems to be some things that the boys know and some things they are comfortably oblivious about. Why is the Great Serpent an even older symbol than the Wheel of Time? And how does Rand know that? I believe this connection is never mentioned again. But if they know about the Great Serpent, then why don't the stories about Aes Sedai have these great serpent rings in them?

    Chapter 4: Thom definately recognizes Moiraine as an Aes Sedai, and I am sure she knows that he knows that she is an Aes Sedai. :p But she does nothing to stop him from telling that to the rest of the village.

    Chapter 5: I don't know why, but I hadn't noticed before that the Trollocs can have parts of different animals, for example a wolf muzzle with hooved feet. I thought the feet matched the head for some reason :look But they are just a mash up of whatever can be found I guess? :look

    Chapter 6:
    "Maybe all the stories were as real as the news the peddlers and merchants brought, all the gleeman's tales and all the stories told at night in front of the fireplace. Next he might actually meet the Green Man, or an Ogier giant, or a wild, blackveiled Aielman."
    Teeheee :look
     
  18. Ilverin Matriam

    Ilverin Matriam Aes Sedai Director of Research and Records Historian Tower Gatekeeper

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    We are officially on week 2 everyone :joy

    If you haven't reached chapter 7 yet, you can still catch up to us!
     
  19. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe

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    In the beginning, just one Trolloc was scary :lol Not to mention the one Fade.

    We see here also just how strong the people of the Two Rivers are. I doubt many other places would have responded as well as they did if monsters came down upon them.
     
  20. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Before I start on week 2, a couple more general thoughts about the first set
    The world is generally set up, we know that Aes Sedai are all women, they can use "magic" but if men do, they go mad, and that sometime in the past, led by Lews Therin, this happened on mass and society was destroyed. We know there is a dark one and that some people (darkfriends) serve him. It is commonly believed that Aes Sedai are Darkfriends. We also know there is a mistaken belief that Lews Therin was trying to free the Dark One. There seem to be quite a few commonly held beliefs that are just not ture
    We met our main charcters and have a good sense of the relationship between them, and that Nynaeve does not like Moirrane. We don't really have much of a sense of Moiraine, Lan or Thom, except that Thom likes to show off. We also know that the Two Rivers is very isolated, they have certain character traits, including stubbornness and they think outsiders, even from a village not too far away (Taren Ferry) are odd. We also have an idea of gender roles in this village at least, and it doesn't seem that the idea that only women can be the powerful Aes Sedai has had much of an effect. Both men and women do have their own power bases though, and men don't challenge the women. However, women tend to think they know better than men and they do challenge the men's power
    Plus, we know Rand was born outside and physcially he is noticeably different from the others - tall, red hair and pale eyes are all features not seen in the Two Rivers.