The trap I never expected Jordan(son) to step into! [SPOILERS!]

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Stephen Lightheart, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Braydon Roque

    Braydon Roque Resident Citizen

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    Yeah the Crystal Ter'Angreal in Rhuidean. That would have been pretty cool to foreshadow it that way.

    For example "The Jenn Aiel died out during the War of Power before they could find a solution to the Balefire problem".

    That would show that it definitely WASN'T just pulled out of someones ass last minute (which we will never know) and it would be a nice little "aha" moment for readers. As it stands if Jordan had it in there since Eye of the World then his foreshadowing certainly is crummy as things like that should be subtle and in there from the very start. I mean, Balefire is such a big deal to the ending of the book and he knew the ending before he started writing, right?
     
  2. Zimone Zarasri

    Zimone Zarasri

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    I don't understand exactly what that theory about the Jenn Aiel and the anti-balefire weave is about. Does it mean that they were killed by it and thus were turned into crystal? But doesn't that weave have "much less effect" on good people and the Jenn Aiel were good weren't they?
     
  3. mckinnonlau

    mckinnonlau

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    When Egwene uses this same weave on a much smaller scale earlier on to fill in the cracks that appear in the ground, this was a hint to me that somehow it would be used to counter the effects of balefire. I didn't know on what scale, and definitely didn't know Egwene would die as a result, but it immediately made me think of her as "Healing" balefire.
     
  4. AnAnonymousWOTFan

    AnAnonymousWOTFan

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    Balance makes it ok, imho.

    I've always been troubled with the concept of balance in the wheel, the dichotomy between creation and destruction, and then having an Ultimate Super-Destruction Weave that is nigh-unstoppable that is uncounterable by anything other than certain inanimate objects. It doesn't make sense with WoT's underlying philosophy, and for that reason I don't think it qualifies as deus ex machina.
     
  5. Caliden Al'Waes

    Caliden Al'Waes Citizen

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    Because of the balance in Randland I knew there was going to be an opposite. But because it was only discovered during the last big war/battle and then forbidden, I figured that no one bothered to "Test" and try to find a way around it because it was forbidden. And risky.
     
  6. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    What's the opposite of fire balls? Or lightning?
    What's the opposite of traveling and gateways? What's the opposite of skimming? Of healing in it's multiple forms?
    I don't think EVERY weave has an opposite. I think Balefire is unique in this fasion. That's what Egwene realized during the battle - it's NOT just a weave, it's a very unique one. That is why it's balanced by the pattern.
     
  7. Ty al'Djinn

    Ty al'Djinn Mod for Life Gaidin Forum Moderator

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    You're thinking of it wrong, I think. A fireball doesn't have an opposite- but the damage you do with a fireball can be healed with a different weave, providing the opposite to balance it out in the pattern.

    Weaves don't need a polar opposite, but they all have something with a countering/balancing effect.
     
  8. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    It's not so much an "opposite" as it is a counter-weave. And some weaves are much easier to counter than others.

    Wards can be woven through without detection. Gateways can be blocked or prevented from closing.
     
  9. Murgabi

    Murgabi

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    The closest things I could come up with are:
    1) In one of the previous books, Aviendha suddenly discovered she has an ability to sence what terangrials could do.
    2) Also Elayne suddenly discovered her ability to make terangrial
    3) So, it is just like that Egwene, suddenly, under "proper conditions" discovered anti balefire... just like she discovered travelling long time ago.
     
  10. Alkeis Cha'ane

    Alkeis Cha'ane Citizen

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    actually... skimming is opposite of traveling in how they work... not how their woven.. just how they work i think? technicly i dont think the shape of the weave is what matters its the intent infused with the power the user imbues into the weave if even a weave is nescesary it may be more like the dream world then we realize and the one power just a mechanism to communicate with the world just a wierd wild though :/
     
  11. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Actually, the only reason Aviendha "suddenly discovered" that she had that Talent, was because she hadn't had a chance to try it out before. Elayne didn't "suddenly" discover that she could make ter'angreal; she discovered out of sheer curiosity.
     
  12. Raevyn Tsornin

    Raevyn Tsornin Aes Sedai Head of the Blue Ajah

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    i agree that it is about balance. along the way, RJ and Brandon balance things.
     
  13. Snowflake

    Snowflake

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    not even once? Maybe the title "The Flame of Tar Valon" means exactly that, but the meaning was long forgotten and turned into a honorific. So it was mentioned time and again since book 1.
     
  14. Jeffan Caliarthan

    Jeffan Caliarthan Aes Sedai

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    Okay, what the balls. That would be epic foreshadowing.
     
  15. Owin al'Kef

    Owin al'Kef

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    True, that would be epic foreshadowing, but we can't forget that Jordan is a pretty epic foreshadower. I've reread most of the books, and a lot of times what seem like throwaway lines wind up foreshadowing a major event later in the book. But even on my second read-through of AMoL, I didn't see anything that even hinted towards an opposite of balefire.
     
  16. Eluial Aldaran

    Eluial Aldaran A real gaydin Aes Sedai

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    So, it was already mentioned, but yeah, Flame of Tar Valon. I mean, given that we've known for so long that "Watcher of the Seals" isn't just an empty title, it seems reasonable to assume "Flame of Tar Valon" isn't either. Not that I had any idea what it was actually referring to until the end, of course, but not all foreshadowing needs to be obvious or able to be figured out (IMO).

    Also, Perrin "counters" balefire in TAR, which totally shatters the unavoidable destruction reputation it had for so long.

    Finally, just before she uses it as anti-balefire, she seals the cracks with it (already mentioned here as well).

    I'm by no means saying I saw it coming, but in hindsight I can see it. And that's good enough for me. I like not having every last detail figured out before it happens.
     
  17. Owin al'Kef

    Owin al'Kef

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    The Flame of Tar Valon might have been some foreshadowing, but then wouldn't the Dragon's Fang also have to be something meaningful?

    Also, in TAR the rules of the waking world don't hold. Perrin was able to counter the balefire because he bent TAR to his will. I still don't think that gives enough warning so that this doesn't look like it comes out of nowhere.
     
  18. Eluial Aldaran

    Eluial Aldaran A real gaydin Aes Sedai

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    The white half of the ying/yang could have been later named the flame of tar valon because they were like "hey it looks like a flame" and then, of course, the dark half gets called the dragon's fang. I mean, I don't know, I'm just kind of making this up. But if there's this name or title that exists, and people don't really know what it refers to, they're going to try to make sense of it and apply it to something familiar, even if it's not correct.

    As for the Perrin/TAR thing, my point was, up until Perrin did that, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, assumed balefire was just it. You get balefired, you cease to exist, even in TAR, and there is no fighting back. As far as I remember, neither the Aiel dreamwalkers nor Egwene ever considered countering weaves with thought in TAR until Perrin did it. Then Egwene was like "oh that's cool." (It's possible I'm misremembering the sequence of events, though.) So Perrin's avoiding balefire foreshadows that balefire is not the end of the line. It's a prelude to it being countered, if you will, even if it only happened in TAR.
     
  19. Caendha al'Milr

    Caendha al'Milr Novice

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    Honestly I just always assumed the Flame of Tar Valon was the white section of yin/yang, and the fang the black section. That's what they're shaped like, that was the symbol of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends (symbolising equal power and balance). It seems obvious to me?
     
  20. Arecias Dezell

    Arecias Dezell

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    Just a couple side points, sorry if I'm not adding to the conversation well.

    Even if the Flame of Tar Valon was the white section of the ancient symbol, it will now be known as the weave Egwene used.

    This was mentioned earlier:
    I think she would have been miserable with him! It was for the best she had a glorious death and will have a legendary legacy