The Three Oaths, going forwards.

[Daerlyn Inagh]

I'm branching this off from another thread as the speculation raised there was too interesting to get buried:

Tazren Gaidin raised the excellent point that traditionalists among the Aes Sedai would have to confront the fact that the AoL AS did not take the Three Oaths except as a punishment. Egwene and her successor Cadsuane seem to be firm on the Oaths being key to being Aes Sedai, but eventually the White Tower will need to adjust to all of the other channellers wandering around Oathless, including the Asha'man. Given the number of Oathed AS bonded to Oathless Asha'man and vice versa, that would seem to be the biggest argument for changing the rules.

 

[Keelinnea Isyne]

I think if you want to be an AS and all the prestiege that goes with it, you will have to take the oaths. They wont have to lower their set "standards". Also, who wouldnt want to be an AS with damane and sul'dam still being around. But also, if they dont want to be an AS, the Wise Ones and Windfinders keep almost as tight of control with those among them.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Why would you wanna be an Aes Sedai with the Seanchan around? Possibly no way to defend yourself efficiently (no weapon unless threatened). The Seanchan aren't allowed to grab people outside their borders anyway.

I don't think the Aes Sedai will have quite the same prestige anymore, though. Too much competition.

 

[Paxam Leratharn]

Tazren Gaidin raised the excellent point that traditionalists among the Aes Sedai would have to confront the fact that the AoL AS did not take the Three Oaths except as a punishment.

This isn't new information to the Aes Sedai, they've known all along that those with the title in the Age of Legends didn't swear on the rods (though they may not have known what it was used for). Siuan, Egwene and pretty much any other Aes Sedai who speaks on the topic vehemently holds to the opinion that the three oaths are good things for the Aes Sedai and that AS must keep with them.

 

[Ajailyn Morrivinna]

But that was before the LB changed it all..

After all why would you want to keep your life span shorter than other channelers?
Add to it if one Warder could think of it, don't you think sooner or later others would think that if a Warder spoke on behalf of his Aes Sedai, that it could very well be a lie? There are plenty of times in the earlier books where Lan answers for Moiraine. While they most likely were not him lying (as I don't think Lan is like that) but if Warders speak on behalf of their AS so often, it could be something just taken as common place.. So sooner or later it would defeat the purpose of speaking no word that was not true, if an AS who decides to bond an Asha'man and they double bond and it becomes something where they can speak in each others mind.. speaking a word that is not true doesn't hold for half the partnership..

 

[Ariadne Davion]

I like to think that Elayne (seeing as she lived) would try to duplicate the rod so the Asha'man would have their own. Whether they use it or not...

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I really don't think that the Asha'man will bind themselves. The way I see Logain's final scene, is that he's got a good start for redeeming male channelers without it. As long as they manage to keep doing good things, they'll have no reason to bind themselves, and nobody's going to be able to force them. and it seems very clear that they don't want to be like the Aes Sedai; scheming and manipulative, deceitful. The Oath against lying is a big part of that.

What the Oaths basically say is: channelers cannot be trusted without binding themselves. If the Asha'man, and/or the other organisations of channelers, prove that they can be trusted without that ... then the point with the Oaths will fail.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

I agree with Tazren Gaidin.

I remember Nynaeve ranting at one point that she could be trusted to be truthful without having to take an Oath on it (or words that effect). Egwene makes some point that if a Sister says "this is so" then people know it to be true. But the problem is, they don't really know it to be true, do they? Oh, perhaps before the Tower split, the Last Battle, Dreadlords etc, a fair number of people would think that way. (Worth mentioning that a fair number would also be trying to work out how she could've been twisting her words/meaning so that you didn't hear what you thought you heard...) But the thing is, people know of the Black Ajah now, or at least that the Aes Sedai are not immune to having Darkfriends in their midst.

I found Egwene's turnaround on the Oaths to be quite strange, really, and I do wonder if Halima had had something to do with that... It seemed quite out of character for her, and I don't think Siuan's argument that the Oaths are what make Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai was that convincing.

The other thing (which others have mentioned) is that the world is going to be full of all these other channelers who no longer have to hide from the White Tower - Aiel Wise Ones, Windfinders, Asha'man, the Kin... If the AS aren't careful, then they are going to find themselves obsolete.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I think the attitude towards Aes Sedai from common people was made quite clear early in the series: never believe what they say, even if it's crystal clear. They're twisting the words. Etc. So people don't really trust them.

Virtually the only way they can get someone to trust them is to say something that cannot possibly be interpreted another way - and hardly that, without having the Aes Sedai swear an oath on it. Which would be equally strong anyway, since they take Oaths (especially on the Light) very seriously.

I think what you say, Ealandrelle, about Nynaeve really hits the head on the nail. Yes, she should be trusted to be truthful. If she's bound, on the other hand, she's going to grow into the Aes Sedai custom of twisting the truth as much as possible. The Oaths should be an idela to strive towards; instead, Aes Sedai seek to avoid that particular Oath as often as possible.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

Yes, they see the Oath as a problem to be solved/worked around, rather than an ideal to live by. In the books, the ones who actually seem to hold to that Oath more are the ones who haven't taken the Oaths yet! (Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve)

 

[Megana Vallentin]

I think part of what makes an Aes Sedai an Aes Sedai instead of just another channeler is the Three Oaths. It's part of who they are, like Tinkers' Way of the Leaf or the Aiel's ji'e'toh. Almost like they're a religious sect in that regard.

I'm not sure what that means for the male Aes Sedai of the Black Tower. Maybe they will have their own version of the Three Oaths, perhaps not the same oaths, perhaps not oaths at all, but something that makes them distinctly male Aes Sedai. Or perhaps they'll keep the name Asha'man and serve a different purpose than their female counterparts.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I think part of what makes an Aes Sedai an Aes Sedai instead of just another channeler is the Three Oaths. It's part of who they are, like Tinkers' Way of the Leaf or the Aiel's ji'e'toh. Almost like they're a religious sect in that regard.

I think that's how it's supposed to be. But from the time when they start as novices, they're taught and trained in the art of Oath-Avoidance. They're taught how to lie and deceive in a way that people won't know they're doing it, without actually speaking falsehood. The ideal has become twisted.

And I think it's because you can't force morality onto someone, anymore than you can force someone to truly serve the Light. The will to do so has to come from within, otherwise it's pointless.

If they Aes Sedai really took that Oath seriously and saw it as ideal to live up to, they should replace it with a much, much stricter Oath that forbids any and all kinds of deception, either by outright lies, word-play, omission or anything in-between. Without that, the Oath is pointless, but I can't see them doing such a change in a million years.

 

[Megana Vallentin]

Maybe they should work on teaching people to live the oaths whether they've sworn them or not, REALLY live them and believe in them, not immediately start practicing for ways to work around them. No matter how strict an oath you find, if people don't believe in it they will just find some way around it.

 

[Mattrim al'Korin]

And I think it's because you can't force morality onto someone, anymore than you can force someone to truly serve the Light. The will to do so has to come from within, otherwise it's pointless.

That's the way I look at it, too. Look at our culture now. So many people claim to be good drivers, but don't use turn signals, speed, and drive dangerously. Laws do little to instill character.

 

[Rhandhal al'Deez]

I think that's how it's supposed to be. But from the time when they start as novices, they're taught and trained in the art of Oath-Avoidance. They're taught how to lie and deceive in a way that people won't know they're doing it, without actually speaking falsehood. The ideal has become twisted.

And I think it's because you can't force morality onto someone, anymore than you can force someone to truly serve the Light. The will to do so has to come from within, otherwise it's pointless.

If they Aes Sedai really took that Oath seriously and saw it as ideal to live up to, they should replace it with a much, much stricter Oath that forbids any and all kinds of deception, either by outright lies, word-play, omission or anything in-between. Without that, the Oath is pointless, but I can't see them doing such a change in a million years.

Good post. The flaws in the Oaths were plainly visible in the first book, even. Also, losing half or more of your possible life span.

 

[LordOfBattle]

Other that the one power the three oaths are what makes aei sedai. But considering that the lack of three oaths is what kept our heroines alive throughout the entire series (well almost) and the fact that the oaths shorten the life span by half or more and also the undeniable fact that its mostly a burden that cure and the irrefutable fact that the battle would have been lost without the lack of the three oaths on our heroines part I say go hang the three oaths.

 

[LordOfBattle]

This would solve a lot of problems. But I doubt any ashaman would swear. The age of legends were without the three oaths. Its more a hindrance than a gift.