*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Seaghan Hama]

Overall, I was happy with ending, but NOT happy with the way Rand battled in shayol gul. Lewis Therin had 113 male channellers with him at shayol gul while rand had Moiraine and Nynaeve. Besides Moridin was ALONE!!!

LTT also FAILED. Attempting the same tactics as LTT used quite possibly would have led to Rand failing as well. He tried a different tactic and the end result was better than LTT achieved.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Indeed. Rand also used all 3 powers. We know from the books that it's not the number of people you have, or even your strength. A man and a woman in a circle are more dangerouse then one person which is stronger then the two combined while not linked.
Also, since LTT used only men, they couldn't link (because men need a woman to link, while women can do so alone).
All in all my guess is Rand was probably stronger at that point then LTT and his hundred companions combined!

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Indeed. All those 113 male channelers LTT used couldn't focused all that power with the same intricacy that Rand could while linked with Nynaeve and Moiraine.

 

[Alkeis Cha'ane]

1 x 1 = 10 soooo what exactly is 1 x 1 x5 =? since thiers not a symbol i know to represent how the power multiplies lol... between the sa angreal useing what it did and rand channeling who knows how ridiculous strongly ... i wonder if moraine and nyneave had angreal or sa angreal? or just htemselves? what happened to nynaeves defense terengreal? oh well... maybe alivia had them whereever she was :/ plsu im not sure but it almost feels like Rand could tab directly in to the one powers both halfs directly on his own almost from the wording of it :/
i think someone mentioned how the channeling felt was stronger then anything felt before? but would they only be able to feel the female half or would they somehow have felt the whole powers combined since it was a unique moment where time and space were warping?

 

[Murgabi]

LTT also FAILED. Attempting the same tactics as LTT used quite possibly would have led to Rand failing as well. He tried a different tactic and the end result was better than LTT achieved.

I agree with you. I just question the simplicity of actions by dark side. As per author, Moridin considered himself TOO powerful and thought he alone could handle Rand. I consider Moridin's thought process here as too simple. Even if one considers that Moridin had a surprise for Rand up in his sleeve (i.e. hurting Moridin would hurt Rand) even that was too simple.

Besides, Demandred's actions were also too simple. As for Taim... All these books we've read that Taim converted lots of ashaman to his side around 100 to be exact... and they just disappeared in the battle for black tower... That was easy and simple as well.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

LTT also FAILED. Attempting the same tactics as LTT used quite possibly would have led to Rand failing as well. He tried a different tactic and the end result was better than LTT achieved.

This. The other thing to remember is that LTT didn't really understand war - I'm sure that was mentioned in the book. Demandred was actually the better tactician. But even then, it does seem like LTT (and even Demandred's) modus operandi was just to throw loads of Power at something, and hope that it would fix it. When the women disagreed, LTT went ahead and did it anyway. And, as has already been pointed out, failed quite spectacularly.

Rand has not just LTT's experience, but that of all his lives, AND his own knowledge gained from having pretty much been at war in one way or another since he was acknowledged as the Dragon Reborn. He was able to look at the bigger picture and figure out the plan which had the best chance of success, rather than just trying to bulldoze his way into Shayol Ghul again.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

1 x 1 = 10 soooo what exactly is 1 x 1 x5 =? since thiers not a symbol i know to represent how the power multiplies lol... between the sa angreal useing what it did and rand channeling who knows how ridiculous strongly ... i wonder if moraine and nyneave had angreal or sa angreal? or just htemselves? what happened to nynaeves defense terengreal? oh well... maybe alivia had them whereever she was :/ plsu im not sure but it almost feels like Rand could tab directly in to the one powers both halfs directly on his own almost from the wording of it :/
i think someone mentioned how the channeling felt was stronger then anything felt before? but would they only be able to feel the female half or would they somehow have felt the whole powers combined since it was a unique moment where time and space were warping?

It's not about the strength in what he channeled, though ... in sheer amount of power, nothing Rand+Nyn+Moiraine channeled would've measured up to the amount of saidin The Hunred Companions channeled (they undoubtedly had angreal and sa'angreal of their own).

It's more the fact that a circle can focus what it does better, it gets better control of the flows and can do much more with much less of the One Power. Saidin and Saidar combined yields even better results, and it's been mentioned several times in the books, that for some tasks, a small circle might be better than a large circle. I would make the assumption that, to seal the Bore, Rand didn't need an infinite amount of the One Power; he needed just "a lot", and more important, to use both saidin, saidar and the True Power, in combination.

 

[Kiranthus Solaron]

With the "impossible pipe" I think it is a case of "there is no spoon". When Rand comes to terms with things and gains complete control over his past lives I think it is a moment wherehe truly becomes the chosen champion of light. At that point I believe that he not only is he granted memories, but the ability to withstand the DO's assault on his will instead of instantly being shredded, as well as surviving stepping out of the pattern. It is likely weaving all three powers at once (the two halves of positive magic and evil magic) is enough to burn him out until he gets reborn into the pattern again. However, he has actually touched the wheel of time itself and manipulated it to show possible futures. He has seen the source coding and has been granted admin controls, so hence my "there is no spoon" correlation. So now things simply are what he believes they are, but we don't get to se how much he can affect it outside of lighting the pipe.

 

[Seaghan Hama]

LTT also FAILED. Attempting the same tactics as LTT used quite possibly would have led to Rand failing as well. He tried a different tactic and the end result was better than LTT achieved.

This. The other thing to remember is that LTT didn't really understand war - I'm sure that was mentioned in the book. Demandred was actually the better tactician. But even then, it does seem like LTT (and even Demandred's) modus operandi was just to throw loads of Power at something, and hope that it would fix it. When the women disagreed, LTT went ahead and did it anyway. And, as has already been pointed out, failed quite spectacularly.

Rand has not just LTT's experience, but that of all his lives, AND his own knowledge gained from having pretty much been at war in one way or another since he was acknowledged as the Dragon Reborn. He was able to look at the bigger picture and figure out the plan which had the best chance of success, rather than just trying to bulldoze his way into Shayol Ghul again.

Something just crossed my mind. It is possible that some of the other Forsaken were supposed to drop what they were doing and head to Shayol Gul when Rand advanced there however he used misdirection to confuse which battle he was taking part in and then used the dagger ter'angreal to hide himself from the DO so that they would not know he was on his way. Once he was in the Pit of Doom it was too late for Moridin to summon anyone to his aid even if he thought he needed it.

 

[Seaghan Hama]

I agree with you. I just question the simplicity of actions by dark side. As per author, Moridin considered himself TOO powerful and thought he alone could handle Rand. I consider Moridin's thought process here as too simple. Even if one considers that Moridin had a surprise for Rand up in his sleeve (i.e. hurting Moridin would hurt Rand) even that was too simple.

Besides, Demandred's actions were also too simple. As for Taim... All these books we've read that Taim converted lots of ashaman to his side around 100 to be exact... and they just disappeared in the battle for black tower... That was easy and simple as well.

While I thoroughly enjoyed the book I will agree that some things were glossed over or rushed past but with this being the last book and with how much had to be fit into it we kind of had to expect that. That being said, no matter what story lines he focused on in detail and which ones he decided to gloss over, BS was never going to make everyone 100% happy.

 

[Sorcha Al'Verdan]

I think the Forsaken didn't come to Shayol Ghul because they didn't want to risk being bound again.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

I think the Forsaken didn't come to Shayol Ghul because they didn't want to risk being bound again.

This is a very good point. Also, Demandred was busy with his role (decimating the armies of the Light), Graendal was at Shayol Ghul (if not inside) dealing with the Aiel and AS there, Moghedien was... what was she doing again? Lanfear was busy in TAR, plotting to switch sides again (or at least working on her own terms). I think really they were all pretty busy, and let's face it, Moridin is pretty arrogant. I really think he believed that he could take Rand all by himself.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

This is a very good point. Also, Demandred was busy with his role (decimating the armies of the Light), Graendal was at Shayol Ghul (if not inside) dealing with the Aiel and AS there, Moghedien was... what was she doing again? Lanfear was busy in TAR, plotting to switch sides again (or at least working on her own terms). I think really they were all pretty busy, and let's face it, Moridin is pretty arrogant. I really think he believed that he could take Rand all by himself.

Moggy was the spy in the Seanchan court.

 

[Pneumatik]

The Aiel had it right: Reality is a dream. Rand realized that, or something close enough to that, when he had his epiphany fighting the DO. He lit his impossible pipe by thinking about it in the same way Perrin could make anything happen in TAR by thinking about it. The grey haired woman and the woman Avienda meets on the way to Rhuidean are from outside the dream, entering it in some way to influence he dreamer's dream.

It's crazy and I'm not saying I completely believe it, but between how much we saw of Perrin learning about TAR and a comment or two from Aiel referring to dating as waking up, it's the first thing I thought of. It also kept me from throwing the book across the room when I read the second to last page of the book.

Also, how did Cadsuane know that Rand would be Moridin? What did I miss about where she'd get that clue?

 

[Toral Delvar]

She might have understood some of the prophecies, or heard Min's visions. It is also possible that as she knew Min was bonded to Rand, and wasn't behaving like someone whose Warder (and lover) had just died, that was also cause for suspicion

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

Moggy was the spy in the Seanchan court.

Thank you. I had totally forgotten that in my rushed read

 

[Kiranthus Solaron]

My one nagging question in my mind is why didnt Tuon strike at the gathered forces after the last battle ended. I understand Tuon is coming around on the damane issue, and she loves or is falling for Mat who would hate it, but every advisor outside of Min would be saying go for the kill. It seems that thier army is at least the equivalent of the remainign light side forces. They know where the bulk of the AS are and I am sure they are aware of the funeral services where pretty much every current leader is attending. Add to that the fact that she neeeds a heck of a force to reconquer Seanchan and you have a golden oppourtunity to incapacitate the majority of nations and the AS. The dragons peace would fall apart pretty quickly leaving the conquest all but assured actually gaining a ton of resources to reconquer seanchan with. Just something that bugged me about the end, but I guess that would have lead to a whole other series. I think they should have stated somewhere that the Seanchen forces took a beating much more than they did to avoid this situation.

 

[Keelinnea Isyne]

She (Tuon) agreed with the Dragons Peace that Rand had her sign before the last battle. She would be breaking that treaty if she did attack them. I dont see her doing something like that and I dont see Mat letting her. It would probably go against some omen she has seen or something.

As to back in her own country. I think the way they are raised to believe in the Empress and their ways, she would just have to show up in the capital and let everyone know she is alive and things will settle back down to normal life for them. They are in turmoil now because they just had the who imperial family killed and the heir was on the other side of the world from them.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

She (Tuon) agreed with the Dragons Peace that Rand had her sign before the last battle. She would be breaking that treaty if she did attack them. I dont see her doing something like that and I dont see Mat letting her. It would probably go against some omen she has seen or something.

From Tuon's statements, I've a hard time believing that she cares about the treaty in any way, aside from how it benefits her and the Empire at the moment. I do believe that Mat might be able to talk sense into her - she doesn't feel completely set into the Seanchan ways - but that would be the one thing that might set her straight. And Min, of course.

Without those two, I am completely positive that, at the moment the treaty stops benefiting the Seanchan empire, they'll break it. They don't see themselves as owing anything to anyone else. After all, they live in a society where murder and assassination is an acceptable means of climbing upwards. Not to mention slavery.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

I'm sure that Tuon either expressly states, or thinks (when we're in a section from her POV) that she has no issues with the thought of breaking the Treaty.

It'd probably come back to the idea of them feeling that all those in Randland are traitors/didn't keep their Oaths, so any treaties or bargains made with them don't hold water.