*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Sorcha Al'Verdan]

Its obvious for Machin Shin, but I don't understand how TDO would be responsible for Mashadar...

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

The evil that enveloped Aridhol and eventually turned everyone to murder and betrayal stems from the evil of The Dark One, at least in my mind.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

The evil in Aridhol grew from came from Mordeth, didn't it? He advised the king, Aridhol closed in on itself, grew harsher and colder ... gradually until there was just evil. With no Dark One, the first seed of that evil would never have existed. No one would've thought about doing such a thing.

And for that matter, without The Dark One, there would've been no need for Aridhol to do that in the first place, because there would've been no Trolloc Wars.

The only thing The Dark Ones (as a force, not an intelligent entity) does is provide the choice of evil. How that evil then grows and evolves in minds of the humans who choose it doesn't have to be Its doing.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

The only thing The Dark Ones (as a force, not an intelligent entity) does is provide the choice of evil. How that evil then grows and evolves in minds of the humans who choose it doesn't have to be Its doing.

Nice in theory, but I believe (and so do the philosophers who wrote the Big White Book) that it works the other way around. Humans have the choice to begin with, but once they've made it the DO can influence them, thus enhancing the evil already in them.

 

[Caliden Al'Waes]

Valid... Though if we're talking about lack of proof of theories, everything in the series sais that this isn't true. We've seen no hint of such a thing at all.

really? We've seen no hint that theres a balance of light and dark? Good Vs. evil? What book series were you reading?

 

[Sorcha Al'Verdan]

I'm assuming that is sarcasm, Caliden?

 

[Caliden Al'Waes]

Yes ha! I was hoping to edit in the rest of the post I have on my note pad before anyone noticed. *shifty eyes* I was only on page one or two when I saw that and just... needed to respond lol.

And how many Ashe'man/Aes Sedai were turned during the last book?
Besides, Emerylde explained my view better then myself. The choice is the person's to make, DO not envolved (which is my point), but once the choice was made, the DO now has the power to take the choice from you. I think Moridin is a perfect example, as I've mentioned before. WHat choice did he have, once he made his original one?
This comes to show that a choice exists with or without the DO, but once he's involved, the choice is taken from you. Hence my lack of understanding of how we all suddenly assume that he is somehow critical for a choice to be made.

They were turned against their will because of torture. You can force someone to rob a bnk with a gun, you can make nearly anyone do anything. THat doesn't really give them a choice, its more of a matter of their character, strength, bravery, courage etc.
All the forsaken had choices. They had orders, yes, and some decided to ignore those orders or interpret them in a way that made their own lives safer. Such as Moggi who went to the battle of the cleansing... pretty much once it was over and just stayed low. She was there, but she didn't do anything really.
They all have choices, but because of what is promised to them they tend to follow those choices. The entire book series preaches balance, complementary sides of each coin and you're surprised that we find out in the end that for the world to keep spinning it needs a bit of evil in it?

Yup. Absolutely no choice at all once you go over to the Dark One. Which is why Verin was at the Last Battle, slinging balefire at the good guys.

Wait, what's that? She defied Shai'tan, took poison and revealed the names of almost every Black sister in the Tower? Oops.

Bravo. Spot on.
Also, with sealing the bore... Its not that big of a secret really if PERRIN managed to realize that Rand would have to break the seals and make them anew, and why it made sense to him.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

I'm still curious about Machin Shin's origins. I think that might be a question for Brandon.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

really? We've seen no hint that theres a balance of light and dark? Good Vs. evil? What book series were you reading?

Can you provide the context of what I answered? This quote means nothing to me as it is.

As for your latest post - I already answered ALL of this, many times, in this thread. Half of what you said proves my theory, especially the battle at the cleansing.

 

[Caliden Al'Waes]

Perhaps that is so, you'll have to realize I typed my responses as I ready, save for the first one where I just quoted you directly and replied. I realize now that the whole topic is a stalemate and nothing I say is going to convince you one way or the other because other more eloquent people have explained my views better than I could, but I still felt the need to add my two cents

 

[Sorcha Al'Verdan]

Machin Shin grew from the taint on Saidin, imo. If they'd used saidar to create the Ways, there wouldn't have been a Machin Shin.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Indeed, so the series theorise. Never saw a need to question it, though I am yet unclear as to how Fain was able to control it... That dude had POWER! Too bad his end was wasted in such a short, unimportant way

 

[Raam Sho'am]

YOU REALLY ARE NOTHING, Rand said, knowing the Dark One's secrets completely.
...
He knew all secrets. He could see what the Dark One had done. And Light, Rand understood. Much of what the Dark One had shown him was lies.
But the vision Rand himself had created - the one without the Dark One - was truth.

Emphasis mine.

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about that passage. Rand KNOWS. He doesn't think. He doesn't guess. He doesn't presume. He makes his decision based on an understanding that no one else in the world could possibly rival. In this, he is infallible. Period.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Isn't this still his point of view?
What is "And Light, Rand understood"? That language, "And Light," is used by the people of Randland. It is not the PoV of an outside story teller, looking in to the world. It is Rand's PoV, and as such it is subject to his believes. Of course Rand's PoV would never say "Rand BELIEVED he understood" or "Rand BELIEVED he knew all secrets," as that would surely hint that something he's believing is false. Do not use the way something is written to show it's suddenly not a PoV of the character, because that's not how the series is written. The fact that it's written in different PoVs was very important in some parts of the book to deliver information. I will not discard it so easily as "fact" just because Rand believes he knows everything, from his own PoV.
I also don't think anything is "ambiguous" - things are written rather clearly... They're just written from one person's PoV, which sais A LOT, as it has throughout the series.

 

[Raam Sho'am]

By that logic, I can claim that Mordeth wasn't truly a separate evil simply because we're only ever told that by various POVs. Or that Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn. Or anything, really. After all, it's only POVs. Hell, the BWB that you so enjoy touting is also just a POV, but you seem to accept it as true.

I don't know why I'm even posting. At this point, if Robert Jordan was resurrected, asked about this and responded that you're wrong, you'd still tell him "well, that's your interpretation".

 

[Tazren Talamar]

No, we don't know if Rand really did know all of the DO's secrets. The fact remains that it is the only PoV that's based on first-hand experience rather than theoretical speculation based on fragmented documents.

 

[mckinnonlau]

I don't really think its the Dark One who is "taking" away peoples' choices. It's people who are doing that by forcing them with channeling.

 

[Syera Faelron]

Guys

Some of you are sniping, can we nip that in the bud . As we don't want flame wars growing on such a lovely topic. Enjoy the book and the thread. Thanks

 

[AnAnonymousWOTFan]

So did Rand use the pure, undivided One Power to rebuild the Pattern at the Bore? Is that how I am reading it?

 

[Zimone Zarasri]

I think the OP was still divided into saidar and saidin, but those weren't further divided into Spirit, Air, Water, Fire and Earth.