*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Aulrick Vendour]

AH! I remembered!
About the Ta'veren effects: This just shows that the DO is not the natural order of things. The effects of a Ta'veren are always balanced, good and evil. This has been repeated so many time during the series, I can't number it. For every person dying in an unexpected way, another that should have died didn't.
But during AMoL, we see the DO's influence on the pattern, and the things happening around Rand. Rand explains this as the pattern trying to balance itself out. That is - the DO effects the pattern externaly, and the pattern is trying to balance itself by using the tools it has, the Ta'veren.
But we know that the Ta'veren are balanced WITHOUT the DO. The pattern is balanced without his influence, since the Ta'veren effect was balanced even when he wasn't involved. When he does get involved, the pattern is trying to counter his intervention. That hardly sounds like the natural order of things. The pattern is balanced without the DO. When he touches it, the pattern needs to rebalance itself. That sounds exactly like something that ISN'T a natural part of the pattern to me.

 

[Paxam Leratharn]

The Great Lords natural state is to be sealed or bound; not to be influencing the world as he does in later books. Remember that in TDR (the first book where the balance of ta'veren is described iirc) the Great Lord does exist. He is part of the world, and his small influence while bound is accepted or even expected by the pattern.

By the time we get to AMOL, his influence has grown beyond what the pattern can accept and so it strives for balance with the ta'veren Rand. Binding him again means that the pattern is once again balanced. Destroying him (if it was even achievable) would have had an unknown effect, as we have never before seen a pattern with out the Great Lord -- even before the drilling of the Bore, the Great Lord was there.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Agreed Paxam. I don't presume to know what the effect would have been. I just think it wouldn't have been what Rand thought it would be :P

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

I'm starting to like my theory that the DO is the result of Evil, not it's source. That would mean that it wouldn't have mattered if Rand killed him, because a new DO would have been created, or he would have just been reborn :P
Let's not start debating it though, it's just a theoretical idea I'm starting to play with :P

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

Personal addition to the debate:

The Dark One is also the Lord of the Grave. If he were to cease existing, I personally feel that the souls in the Pattern would no longer be capable of dying, resulting in first a zombie apocalypse (since their bodies would deteriorate but they would not be able to die), and then the end of life as the people of the world know it.

 

[Marlinya Nedruine]

WoT Zombie Apocalypse?



This is an interesting discussion...I think all of the main points have been adequately defined, but this is one that is nagging at me.

All around him spread a vast nothingness. Voracious and hungry, it longed to consume. He could see the pattern. It looked like thousands upon thousands of twisting ribbons of light; they spun around him, above him, undulating and shimmering, twisting together. At least, that was how his mind chose to interpret it.


Everything that Rand sees there is an interpretation of how he sees the world. We are being reminded of it again and again. He sees the world as a pattern of threads, so that's what he sees there. He invisioned the world without the DO as a world where people can do no evil, so that's what he saw. That doesn't make it truth. It makes it how Rand sees the world.

Interpretation can mean assigning meaning to something, but it can also mean perceiving. In the same way that our brains sort out how to perceive different kinds of energy as sound and light, Rand's brain had to figure out a way of perceiving--being able to distinguish--the energy of the Pattern. The bolded phrase is not about Rand assigning meaning to the threads of the Pattern or viewing it through his own lens of personal bias; it is merely recognition that in order for him to discern the Pattern and to manipulate it, it had to resolve into something with which he was familiar--for him, a visual image of woven threads. For someone else, perhaps Thom Merrilin, it would resolve into the sounds of a complex musical composition. Instead of visualizing physically handling the threads, Thom would use his inner ear to insert new chords or manipulate the melody.

In musical terms, I would imagine the world without the DO/evil being like setting up a musical composition with no dissonant chords at all...and ending up with a bunch of the most boring and stable chords instead of the magnificent buildup of tension and release that dissonance makes possible. New Age music, anyone?

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

Interpretation can mean assigning meaning to something, but it can also mean perceiving. In the same way that our brains sort out how to perceive different kinds of energy as sound and light, Rand's brain had to figure out a way of perceiving--being able to distinguish--the energy of the Pattern. The bolded phrase is not about Rand assigning meaning to the threads of the Pattern or viewing it through his own lens of personal bias; it is merely recognition that in order for him to discern the Pattern and to manipulate it, it had to resolve into something with which he was familiar--for him, a visual image of woven threads. For someone else, perhaps Thom Merrilin, it would resolve into the sounds of a complex musical composition. Instead of visualizing physically handling the threads, Thom would use his inner ear to insert new chords or manipulate the melody.

In musical terms, I would imagine the world without the DO/evil being like setting up a musical composition with no dissonant chords at all...and ending up with a bunch of the most boring and stable chords instead of the magnificent buildup of tension and release that dissonance makes possible. New Age music, anyone?

I absolutely love this interpretation/analogy, Marlinya Sedai. Hammar's post is also brilliant, and I agree with both. I need to sit and hash out my theories in my own brain before I inflict them on anyone else, so for now I'll just stick with "I agree with Hammar and Marlinya"

 

[Marlinya Nedruine]

Thanks Ealandrelle.

Actually, before I started reading the thread and getting caught up in the discussion, I wanted to ask:
How did Rand pull off the body switch? I think it's implied, from the way Rand and Moridin's bodies were found, that Rand was still in his body after the re-sealing of the Bore, and that he carried Moridin for a little ways before collapsing. Then he sees an old woman who might be Aiel and might be a vision, who says something like "Yes, this is what you need to do." I am assuming that the actual switch took place here, so the rescuers pick up Rand/Moridin and Moridin/Rand. But who is the woman? Is she real? If not, what does she represent? Was it something like the double bond-link situation, where Rand could essentially let go of his essence and take up residence in Moridin's body, since they had a bond and had been linked?

 

[Zimone Zarasri]

That old woman was Nakomi, wasn't it? The same one that Aviendha met on her way to Rhuidean.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

Thanks Ealandrelle.

Actually, before I started reading the thread and getting caught up in the discussion, I wanted to ask:
How did Rand pull off the body switch? I think it's implied, from the way Rand and Moridin's bodies were found, that Rand was still in his body after the re-sealing of the Bore, and that he carried Moridin for a little ways before collapsing. Then he sees an old woman who might be Aiel and might be a vision, who says something like "Yes, this is what you need to do." I am assuming that the actual switch took place here, so the rescuers pick up Rand/Moridin and Moridin/Rand. But who is the woman? Is she real? If not, what does she represent? Was it something like the double bond-link situation, where Rand could essentially let go of his essence and take up residence in Moridin's body, since they had a bond and had been linked?

OK, at the risk of sounding like I am stalking your posts, thank you SO Much for asking this, as I was about to ask the same question

I agree that the old woman is Nakomi (though I have no idea who she is beyond her name - any theories?). But there's nothing to suggest what actually happens to allow the two to swap bodies. Or why, when initially they are both dying, Rand/Moridin starts to recover whereas Moridin/Rand dies. My thought of the latter is that Moridin truly wanted to die, whereas Rand truly wanted to live... so perhaps force of will came into it? But that doesn't explain the switch itself.

Edit to add - was this perhaps something to do with the link forged by the crossing balefire streams? We know that they've been able to feel each other's pain (Moridin feeling Rand losing his hand) etc, so was this the final result of that episode of the TP meeting the One Power?

 

[Ajailyn Morrivinna]

Maybe Nakomi was the symbolic representation of the Creator. Maybe Aviendha needed to meet her, needed to learn.. if the DO could touch the pattern why not the Creator (in the idea of balance and all)..?

I don't mean that Nakomi was actually a real and solid person.. yes Aviendha met her, but maybe Aviendha believed she met a woman, when indeed it was just an apparition or memory given? I know that is going far to stretch the idea.. but ehh.. it is just an idea, far fetched or not.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

Nakomi/woman at the end is the only real thing that baffles me. The body switch is confusing, but at least I get how that could make some kind of sense, but Nakomi is still just randomsauce.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

Here's an example - why do you assume the DO is what gives people the choice? Maybe the DO doesn't GIVE people the choice, but it is the RESULT of the choice?

The DO doesn't give a choice; the DO *is* the choice. The DO gives a choice in the sense that Pepsi provides an alternative to Coke.

 

[Toral Delvar]

I thought she might be Nakomi, but Rand described her as grey haired. Nakomi was described as middle aged , though I suppose it depends on how Aviendha views middle aged.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

In musical terms, I would imagine the world without the DO/evil being like setting up a musical composition with no dissonant chords at all...

Someone's been reading their Silmarillion. Tolkien used this exact metaphor.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

I think that might be one of my questions to Brandon at dinner (yay Memory Keeper privileges!).

 

[Braydon Roque]

Except that the prison is not the DO, is it? That's like saying that people who build prisons understand the psychology of criminals.

Yet the next words out of you are that Fel was a special guy that we should believe...because he had a theory about a prison. Come on buddy, you are better than this comedy gold.

The creator provides light, and the choice of good. The dark one provides the choice of evil. The creator knows that if the Datk One has direct control he will try to remove choice. That's just the world Randland is. The creator then prisons the Dark One so that he can only touch indirectly, it's safe and free will us maintained.

The creator also knows the Dark One will always break free so he makes a champion to save the world. The whole friggen story is the idea that the Creator wants a good world with free will. It's about the only decent thing in the book so just let it slide. You might not agree on a theological level but that's the world they are in. It's a bit like debating certain weaves. If they don't break the rules as have been established then just chill. Jordan knows his world best.

Note: The Trolloc flaming runway and Mats jibe at Galad were epic but it was slim pickings other than that.

 

[Braydon Roque]

Here's probably a better way if looking at it.

The Creator made the universe and sealed off the Dark One at the moment of creation. Not: The creator screwed up and shoved his mistake under a rug. If the Creator really is good then why have a Dark One at all? Surely he could do what Rand could have done. So even the Creator wants to keep the Dark One. But he wants him quarantined. Why?

It's pretty simple. Rand was right. He did the right thing.

(Him living at the end was totally lame though. It's such a terrible plot "twist" and makes a mockery of the whole Moridin story arc.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

(Him living at the end was totally lame though. It's such a terrible plot "twist" and makes a mockery of the whole Moridin story arc.

I'm not sure it's such a huge "twist", since people predicted exactly that happening.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Yet the next words out of you are that Fel was a special guy that we should believe...because he had a theory about a prison. Come on buddy, you are better than this comedy gold.

For the bajilion time - Fel is an EXAMPLE of how philosophers can use theory and come up with better explanation then the actual people who do the work. Fel had a theory about the prison, and he was right - Rand DID need the old seals and prison to be broken completely before he could reseal it the right way. I didn't mean that Fel himself is our best source of information like the Big White Book, I said that if the writers of the Big White Book are anything like Fel and his philosophies, then I wouldn't discard what's written there so easily, especially since we all agree he was right from the start, and HE was the one who told Rand what needed done regarding the prison to begin with.

The DO doesn't give a choice; the DO *is* the choice. The DO gives a choice in the sense that Pepsi provides an alternative to Coke.

The creator provides light, and the choice of good. The dark one provides the choice of evil. The creator knows that if the Datk One has direct control he will try to remove choice. That's just the world Randland is. The creator then prisons the Dark One so that he can only touch indirectly, it's safe and free will us maintained.

Those are both very nice theories and interpretations... But that's all it is - an interpretation. The truth is we have no objective, out side source of information which can tell us this is how things work. Like the example I brought before - maybe the DO is the RESULT of people's choice to do evil, and so the Creator sealed him in the moment of it's creation to prevent it from corrupting humanity even more. He couldn't just destroy him, since he'll be reborn once people make evil choices again, so he simply locked him up.
Just an example, of course, but when it comes to objective evidence, we have none. It's all an interpretation.
And again, NO, Rand's PoV in the last battle is not objective.

The creator also knows the Dark One will always break free so he makes a champion to save the world.

Actually, I think that's the Pattern's doing. It uses it's Ta'verens to restore balance. I don't think the creator has anything to do with it. The Creator, so far as I am concerned, is MIA. He made the pattern a cirtain way, and now the pattern takes care of itself.

The whole friggen story is the idea that the Creator wants a good world with free will. It's about the only decent thing in the book so just let it slide. You might not agree on a theological level but that's the world they are in.

That makes NO SENSE!
If he wants a good world, then there's no choice. If he wants choice, then he has to accept the world might not be good. Saying it's a good world with choice makes NO SENSE, because if the world is created to be good then there's no choice.

Here's probably a better way if looking at it.

The Creator made the universe and sealed off the Dark One at the moment of creation. Not: The creator screwed up and shoved his mistake under a rug. If the Creator really is good then why have a Dark One at all?

Here's another assumption I disagree with, which is also an interpretation. Who said the creator was "good"? The creator just is, he created the pattern. Living in the "Light" means not living in the Shadow. What does that have to do with the creator? I dislike the notion that the DO and the creator are equal but opposites. If the DO was indeed created by the creator, then they're not equal but opposites, they're anything BUT equal but opposites. The creator is surely much more (assuming that if he could create, he could also simply destroy, like you said).
I agree with you that the DO is part of the design of the universe Robert Jordan created. I disagree that it was desgined that way simply because the creator wanted it to be this way. It makes no sense to me. Sorry if you feel I'm arguing on a theological basis, but this world means a lot to me and I want it to make sense, not just "chill and role" with anything at face level, even when there's no logic to it, when it can be explained by simply interpreting the same things differently.
You assume that because people in the books say cirtain things, then it must be true, because "that's the thology." I'm sorry, that's just not enough for me.
Though now I REALLY want to read the upcomming encyclopedia. Some external, objective information would be good right about now.