*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Hammar O'Justice]

Actually, it is established that people did evil *before* the Bore and knowledge of the Dark One. Semi tortured people for years before. They had criminals, though far fewer apparently. So the Dark One's continued existence is unnecessary for people to be able to know darkness.

No. Sealing away the DO removes his *physical effect on the pattern*. It does not remove the capacity for humans to choose to do bad things. *Destroying the DO* does remove the capacity for humans to choose bad things because there is no bad choice available to them to make.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I see it as the Pattern having some form of built-in filtering process for The Dark One. A tiny portion of this huge force can enter the Pattern, but only so much that it creates a balance between Light and Dark. Like how air is circulated into houses (if we imagine a perfect house in this regard) to get just enough to live comfortably, but not enough to overwhelm heating during winter. Punch a whole in a window, though, and you'll freeze to death.

Or perhaps like the ozone layer and sunlight. Just much more metaphysical.

 

[Toral Delvar]

I think it is that tDO is an anthropomorphic personification (or near enough) of evil. It isn't possible to kill the Dark One as such, by doing so, Rand would have been removing evil from the world. This then comes down to a philosophical/theological debate about what that would mean, which I think, largely resolves around the question "what is evil? - Is selfishness a minor evil, is indifference an evil? If you see poor people, is it evil to not give them your money, or is it more evil to do so, and lose the ability to help out in more important ways?

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

No. Sealing away the DO removes his *physical effect on the pattern*. It does not remove the capacity for humans to choose to do bad things. *Destroying the DO* does remove the capacity for humans to choose bad things because there is no bad choice available to them to make.

Hi Hammer, nice to have you on the thread :P
I'm sorry to say, your answer made no sense to me
A person is hungry, and now can either steal something to eat or go ask people. The DO can effect him and make him choose to steal, but he didn't create the choice. The choice is still there, DO or not.

I see it as the Pattern having some form of built-in filtering process for The Dark One. A tiny portion of this huge force can enter the Pattern, but only so much that it creates a balance between Light and Dark.

Valid... Though if we're talking about lack of proof of theories, everything in the series sais that this isn't true. We've seen no hint of such a thing at all.

Now, regarding LTT - creating the seals and sealing the prison had nothing to do with knowing the DO, as Rand showed us in the book. If anything, LTTs LACK of understanding is what caused the destruction and chaos during the breaking.
LTT was no a scholar. Seeing the effects of the DO, even fighting them, is far from being the same as understanding it's nature.
If anything, your point that Rand saw him while out side the pattern made more sense to me.
As for not contradicting - show me one example, from any book in the series, where the DO granted someone an option to choose between good and evil. It didn't happen. If anything, he takes the choice from people. Not only that, but people (except some channelers who can be turned) have to CHOOSE to turn to him by themselves, and only then does he have influence over them in such matters as choice. No where, in the whole series, can I remember the DO having anything to do with giving anyone a choice. He always trys to take it.
As for balance - I understand the concept. If we accept that the DO is the opposite of the creator, though the creator is basically MIA the whole time. But I believe that's exactly the opposite. The world exists with balance. That's how the creator made it. The pattern is balance, we've been said that clearly in the book (though still from Rand's PoV). But let's accept that the pattern is balance, since this (unlike choice) HAS been shown time and time again in the books. The DO is OUTSIDE the pattern. He does exactly the opposite - he wants to destroy this balance. The pattern resists, because it's it's nature (Again, that's Rand's PoV), but that doesn't mean that the DO is part of the balance. He destrupts the balance, as is his nature. He is chaos (as in, "Let the lord of chaos rule"). Which is also a good explanation to his plan to desrupt Rand so much that he, too, will lead to chaos.

To sum things up - the way I see it, Rand's PoV is in no way better then the Big White Book. The DO takes choice, not give it, and is the opposite of balance.
I doubt you'd find better evidence (and no, I don't consider "because Rand saw it while battling the DO" as evidence, since it's a PoV).

I really wish this encyclopedia to come out :P

 

[Raam Sho'am]

Brilliant. Rand doesn't really understand TDO because all he did was figure out how to seal his prison. Meanwhile, the BWB is more reliable because, well, "because Herid Fel" appears to be the crux of your argument. Setting aside for a moment the fact that there's no indication that Fel has anything to do with the BWB, what exactly makes him some sort of authority on TDO in your eyes? You appear to have forgotten that Fel's main contribution was, you guessed it, an idea on how to reseal the Bore.

So basically, 400 years of experience and knowledge, plus an actual experience outside of the Pattern while witnessing the entirety of creation and all its possibilities plus actually sealing the Bore is all less significant than... Coming up with an idea on how to seal the Bore.

As for your constant harping about the Dark One taking away choice, remind me please how many of the Forsaken were forced to go over to the Shadow? I believe it was right around zero?

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Yeah, but once you go over, you are not given choices on what to do with your life. You are ordered about and probably killed.

But the people who chose to go over to tDO were making evil choices *before* the Bore was opened. Semi was just an example.

However, from the philosophical side, it could be considered that the Creator put tDO in place as part of the Great Web which, if memory serves, is made up of multiple Patterns, and is actually meant to be a balancing element. After all, I would think the Creator would have had the power to destroy tDO if he chose.

As far as PoV... I believe it reasonable to assume that Rand's pov is valid as it is a revealed insight, or epiphany, as determined by the author(s). If RJ had his ending declared from the start, then the insight is probably accurate.

Again, all that said, I would disagree with that assessment. But I'm not the author. Just someone with an opinion.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Brilliant. Rand doesn't really understand TDO because all he did was figure out how to seal his prison.

Except that the prison is not the DO, is it? That's like saying that people who build prisons understand the psychology of criminals.

Meanwhile, the BWB is more reliable because, well, "because Herid Fel" appears to be the crux of your argument.

Harrid Fel is an example. BTW, need I remind you that it was Fel who tought Rand that the old prison must be removed before a new one can be built? Sounds rather insightful to me, though now we take it as granted since it was half a series ago and more.

So basically, 400 years of experience and knowledge, plus an actual experience outside of the Pattern while witnessing the entirety of creation and all its possibilities plus actually sealing the Bore is all less significant than... Coming up with an idea on how to seal the Bore.

That's not accurate. As I've said before, it is likely that the majority of LTT's life passed with no knowledge that the DO even existed. And even when he did know - he was far from being an expert on the nature of the DO. That's actually EXACTLY what philosophers are for. He was a leader during a war, not an expert on thephilosophical nature of the enemy.

As for your constant harping about the Dark One taking away choice, remind me please how many of the Forsaken were forced to go over to the Shadow? I believe it was right around zero?

And how many Ashe'man/Aes Sedai were turned during the last book?
Besides, Emerylde explained my view better then myself. The choice is the person's to make, DO not envolved (which is my point), but once the choice was made, the DO now has the power to take the choice from you. I think Moridin is a perfect example, as I've mentioned before. WHat choice did he have, once he made his original one?
This comes to show that a choice exists with or without the DO, but once he's involved, the choice is taken from you. Hence my lack of understanding of how we all suddenly assume that he is somehow critical for a choice to be made.

Really liked your post BTW, Emerylde

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Also:

All around him spread a vast nothingness. Voracious and hungry, it longed to consume. He could see the pattern. It looked like thousands upon thousands of twisting ribbons of light; they spun around him, above him, undulating and shimmering, twisting together. At least, that was how his mind chose to interpret it.

Everything that Rand sees there is an interpretation of how he sees the world. We are being reminded of it again and again. He sees the world as a pattern of threads, so that's what he sees there. He invisioned the world without the DO as a world where people can do no evil, so that's what he saw. That doesn't make it truth. It makes it how Rand sees the world.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Really liked your post BTW, Emerylde

Thanks! I think it's pretty interesting how the ending sparked this particular conversation.

 

[Raam Sho'am]

Yup. Absolutely no choice at all once you go over to the Dark One. Which is why Verin was at the Last Battle, slinging balefire at the good guys.

Wait, what's that? She defied Shai'tan, took poison and revealed the names of almost every Black sister in the Tower? Oops.

As for the rest of my post, you either didn't read half of it or you're intentionally misrepresenting what I said. Whichever of the two is true doesn't really matter - either way the rest of your post isn't even worthy of a response.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

I understood your post perfectly. I wrote it this way because your views on Fel are just like mine, except I see his involvement as proof he understood more about the nature of the bore then Rand did, and you think that it means Rand understand more then him. This makes little sense to me. The only person we've seen who looked at the philosophical nature of the DO is Fel himself. Not Rand, and cirtainly not LTT.

As for Verin - that's a very good point. But, as per her own words, she didn't choose to move to the DO's side, she was forced to it, or die. And she DID mentiopn that the only way she was able to do what she did was because of the wording of the oaths she swore.
But yes, I agree that Verin is a good example of how complicated this whole choice issue is. Do we have more such examples?

If you think my arguments are unworthy of a response, there's really nothing to say to it. I respond to people's views and opinions, not their logical fallacies (as in diverting answering things I said by saying it's not worthy of a response. Here's a switch in subject if I've ever seen one :P)

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Please play nicely, guys.

/removes mod hat

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Ram and I always play nice :P
And by always, I mean never

 

[Raam Sho'am]

After setting up a straw man, appealing to authority and attempting some special pleading in this thread alone, you accuse me of using logical fallacies? Interesting.

My response was not an attempt to change the subject. It was a direct reference to a number of facts:

1. You attempted to "remind" me of something I had literally mentioned in the post you were responding to.
2. You completely ignored the question implied by my post. So I'll state it clearly: what exactly makes you think Herid Fel had some astounding insights into the nature of the Dark One? His theories touch on two major subjects: the turning of the wheel in general, and the closing of the Bore. The first has nothing to do with the Dark One, and the second you yourself painted as understanding a prison versus understanding the inmates. Fel came up with a theory on what is necessary to seal the Bore. Rand actually sealed it. You can't give credit to one and disregard the other. This is the part you so blatantly misrepresented.
3. Lews Therin was a scholar. One of the greatest of his Age. You're trying to paint his knowledge as nothing but war/channeling/whatever. Even if we accept that his first 2-3 centuries of life included no knowledge of the Dark One, it's fair to say that with his mind, he might have figured out a thing or two in the period after he learned about Shai'tan, given that the remainder of his life from that point was still longer than the entirety of Fel's.

As for more examples of choices... Pretty much anything Lanfear did. Also Ingtar Shinowa.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

1. Ah, yes. Maybe that was written poorly, but the point stands. I've corrected it in my last post.
2. I don't think he's an expert. I think he's an example, like I've clearly stated, of how philosophers have points of views which, I think, shouldn't be so easily dismissed, as people here seem to be doing with the Great White Book (which, BTW, I've seen refferenced many times in these very forums as a reliable source of information).
3. I don't think his knowledge is so limited as that, but I do think that the majority of philosophical study regarding the DO and his nature were probably done after his time, seeing as the DO wasn't known most of his life, and 3,000 years have passed since then. That's a lot of time for knowledge of a philosophical nature to be collected.

Ingtar Shinowa is another good example. Lanfear? Not so much. She had to use A LOT of manipulation, while suffering the DOs instructions, to do what she did. That fact that the DO takes people's choices (or limiting them, as I've explained before) doesn't mean that EVERYTHING they do is directed by him. I don't think that can be said even about people who were turned using the 13 method. It only means that their choices are now limited.

Now, you need to remember that, all in all, this is STILL an interpretation. It IS based on things found in the books (and the Big White Book), and though like a lot of other theories is not perfect (it HAS been around less then a weak, after all :P), I do believe it to be true. Mostly because I'm having trouble to believe that, after the whole series has passed, suddenly the issue of choice will pop up at the last second, and will become the most dominant thing that will influence Rand's decision.

I'd like to bring another quote here:

The Dark One attacked.
It was an attempt to tear Rand apart, to destroy him bit by bit. The Dark One sought to claim the very elements that made up Rand's essence, then annihilate them.
Rand couldn't gast, couldn't cry out. This attack wasn't at his body, for he had no true body in this place, just a memory of one.
Rand held himself together. With difficulty. In the face of this awesome attack, any notion of defeating the Dark One - of killing him - vanished.

Now, here's something else that Rand is thinking while batteling. But he was wrong, wasn't he? Later, he CAN kill the DO, and he does defeat him. Rand's perception of reality isn't truth, it's just an interpretation, based on his experiences there. And those experiences are short (yes, time does have meaning there. I won't bring the quote, but Rand attached himself to the pattern, and it is stated that time had meaning for him again). Hardly what I'd call a good opportunity to mold things over in his mind. The truth is we simply have no reason to think that his PoV is objective truth. It is as flawd as the people who wrote the Big White Book, with all of their rare books from the age of legends and all of that.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Ram and I always play nice :P
And by always, I mean never

Hence my friendly reminder.

/removes mod hat for real this time...I hope

I'm confused, Aulrick, by your statements about Rand & Fel. You seem to imply that Fel's insight about the Bore is somehow philosophical? :scratch

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Indeed I do. For starters, Fel was a philosopher, so far as I can recall. His work was of a philosophical nature. He hadn't studied the bore (probably couldn't have even if he wanted to, since he's not a channeler). His work is purely theoretical, or as I see it, philosophical.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

I thought he was more of a scholar/researcher. I could easily be wrong though. I thought his presumptions were based on that research & not a particular philosophy. I guess it's just really a matter of semantics really. I understand what you mean now though. Thanks.

 

[Seamus1603]

@ Aulrick

I think you're making some good points about the Dark One/Father of Lies, yet I still disagree with you.

For me, it comes down to the Lord of the Morning/Lightbringer/Lucifer parallels for Rand. The way I envision it is this:

I think about it as a Garden of Eden allegory. Who are the players? Adam/Eve = the world of men. God = the Creator + the Dark One (this, IMO, is key - the idea that good cannot exist is the absence of evil because good is defined by the existence of evil). Rand = the serpent/Lightbringer/Lucifer. In this understanding of the Garden of Eden (I'll call it Pullman-esque), God is essentially Big Brother saying obedience is good while the serpent is the enabler of Free Will and the champion of imagination.

Applied to the Rand/DO battle: Neither the Creator or DO provide for Free Will. The creator creates and the DO provides the context for, and the definition of Good (as opposed to the God=Good, Good is instead defined not by the absence of Evil, but by the presence of Evil. Hence, eliminating the presence of Evil effectively Turns people to Good. Free Will must entail the ability to do Good and/or Evil or it's not Free Will at all. Instead of DO/Creator providing choice, it the Dragon that does so with every turning of the wheel.

Even your excerpt from the BWB lends itself to this understanding. The AoL represents Paradise (Paran Disen) as much as is possible while still retaining Human Consciousness, or Free Will. To imagine a Paradise without the DO at all - as Rand did - is like balefiring Evil as a whole: to do so eliminates the effects of the presence of evil, it eliminates the very concept of Good.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Yeah, perhaps "theoretical knowledge" is better then "philosophical knowledge" to describe it, but it just prooves my point further, since it shows that he indeed had done research (of a theoretical kind) on the subject. Probably more then LTT did, since he was too busy fighting a war and all that.

The people who supposedly wrote the Big White Book, I assume, are somewhat like Fel, but with a lot more information about the age of lefends, which is why, while I understand that their point of view is not necesserily accurate, should be considered liable, unless we see something that completely contradicts it... Which is not, like, impossible.