*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Tazren Talamar]

I just posted this in the other thread, but I think it fits better as a discussion here ...

Did the writer happen to be Harrid Fel?

We're never told who wrote it.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=824

Mr. Jordan "verified" the facts, in that he had final approval over the manuscript and everything that went into it, but we wrote it as a "living" history—in other words, we wrote it from the point of view of a learned scholarly person living during Rand's generation who had some unusual access to rare books relics, and materials. Whether this person's assumptions about the true nature of those artifacts or the histories that were uncovered were the truth is only as certain as it is for any of our own present day historians and archeologists. This is doubly complicated because some facts are always lost to time, even in Rand's world, and that not all truths are recorded accurately—especially of the Aes Sedai have decided to muddy the waters.

The result is that we wanted each reader to take away his or her own interpretation of the veracity of the information. Does the book reflect what R.J. intended? So far as I know, it does. Does it reflect the last and only word on Rand and his world? Perhaps. We also believed the dinosaurs to be cold blooded reptiles for many years. Now the current belief says they were warm blooded and related to birds. Which is canon? Who knows? Will it change again? As with Rand's world—wait and see.

Meaning that, anything later revealed that contradicts TBWB overrules TBWB.

I consider this quote from AMoL, for instance:

He existed in this place that was not, this place outside of the Pattern, this place where evil was born. He looked into it, and he knew it. The Dark One was not a being, but a force - and essence as wide as the universe itself, which Rand could now see in complete detail. Planets, stars in their multitudes, like the motes above a bonfire.

That makes me think that, yes, The Dark One isn't a just some evil entity; it's a force integral to the world that was created. What we know as Shai'tan is, somehow, an intelligent manifestation of it. The source of evil is kept outside of the Pattern, because if The Dark One touches the world, the balance breaks. Too much evil, etc. The force is still there, seeping through the Pattern, giving people the option to choose between good and evil. But it cannot completely invade the world.

Consider this: the drilling of the Bore took place because it was discovered that something emenated from the other side. What they felt was the Dark One, so a small part of it must already have been present in the world, albeit in small amounts, for them to be able to sense it. When the Bore was drilled, The Dark One was able to influence the world directly, and increase the negative traits in people, inspire greed and selflishness, etc.

So it makes sense that The Dark One, as it is explained by Rand, cannot be destroyed without destroying the balance of good and evil. Becaues The Dark One is evil.

Sure, what you posit could be true, but we'd have to assume that what's said in the books is a lie, without there being any indication of that. I wouldn't have found that to be a dreadful ending, if The Dark One had just tricked Rand into letting it live to fight another day. The cycle of the wheel, etc. But there's nothing to indicate that that is so. Assuming that what we're explicitly shown is a lie, is the greater assumption, imo.

The Dark One is a force that wants to rule. But in the "grand design" by the Creator, it cannot enter the Pattern and manipulate it. That was only made possible because of humans, who invited it in, so to speak.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

I'm still wondering about how, exactly, Rand and Moridin switched bodies.

I believe that Rand burned himself out, which is why he's unable to channel at all. I think it was briefly mentioned that he was holding too much of the Powers. As for the pipe, that still baffles me. I kind of like the theory that because he existed in the place where The Dark One, The Creator, and The Pattern itself exist, he gained some kind of abilities outside of anything that's been known.

Also, I'm kind of curious about whether or not in one of the other Ages people tap into The Creator's power. If The Dark One has the True Source, then The Creator must have something as well.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

Consider this: the drilling of the Bore took place because it was discovered that something emenated from the other side. What they felt was the Dark One, so a small part of it must already have been present in the world, albeit in small amounts, for them to be able to sense it.

It's entirely possible that the small part of The Dark One present in the world is the little bit of the True Source that the Dragon used to seal him away.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

It's entirely possible that the small part of The Dark One present in the world is the little bit of the True Source that the Dragon used to seal him away.

True. It could be a combination of both, as well. The Bore always has been and always will be a thinner part of the Pattern. Perhaps a place where force that is The Dark One will seep into the world, to enable the whole choice thing. Maybe the fact that it was sealed with The True Power is what enables that small part of the Dark One to influence the world. Just a bit, but enough for balance.

 

[Kerna Shedrian]

I do wonder what happens to Turned people now that he's resealed?

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I do wonder what happens to Turned people now that he's resealed?

My own guess would be that, since their minds are already either twisted, or their souls have already been driven out and "replaced" (if what Lanfear talked about is true), the effect will still be there.

 

[Toral Delvar]

Well, turning doesn't really fit with how RJ described it (he made no mention of it seeming like the person had been replaced and suggested it was possible, though extremely unlikely that a person could find their way back to the light), but it has also been said that the DO amplifies negative feelings and without them, people might not have any noble images, but might be more neutral?
I would think that there were some Black Ajah or turned Asha'man that survived. What will they do now?

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

And here are some other things:

The threads of possibilities resisted Rand as he wove them together into the world he imagined. He didn't know what that meant. Perhaps what he demanded was highly unlikely.

You show me your true heart?" Rand demanded of the nothingness as he siezed those threads. "I will show you mine, Shai'tan...

Seems clear to me that the image Rand had seen is the way HE SEES things, not what WILL be if he killed the DO.

There's also the point that the DO doesn't "give" people a choice, he TAKES it from them! The channelers are still the best example, but not the only one. Look at Moridin. His choice was taken from him to such extent, without being "turned," that he preffered the whole universe destroyed then continue living. That doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Seems clear to me that the image Rand had seen is the way HE SEES things, not what WILL be if he killed the DO.

He he forced the Pattern to show a world where there would be no Dark One. As such, where there would be no evil. He did think that Shai'tan did something to it an lie in that scene; it wasn't until the end that he realised that it was true. When he held The Dark One and saw all of its secrets.

There's also the point that the DO doesn't "give" people a choice, he TAKES it from them! The channelers are still the best example, but not the only one. Look at Moridin. His choice was taken from him to such extent, without being "turned," that he preffered the whole universe destroyed then continue living. That doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.[/FONT]

I fail to see how this somehow proves that The Dark One won, that Rand could've killed it. The Dark One is the force of evil in the universe. If there is no Dark One, there is no choice to be evil.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

I disagree.
The choice IS there. That's stated in the big white book. The DO just enhances the evil already in people. Even IF the Big White Book is written by a scholar of this age and may not be accurate, I still don't think the DO allows the choice, because as I see it, throughout the series he TAKES the choice from people, not giving it, and does so violently at times. It's contradictory. But it's all speculation and interpretation, not hard proof.

As for him winning - it's not that he won, exactly. As I explained, this is the Father of Lies's greatest lie. By convincing Rand that without him the world will be worse because people will have no choice, he prevents his destruction, thus preserving the wheel of time. Which means there are now only two possibilities - either the fight will be eternal (that is, the dragon will seal him over and over) or one day he will win.

 

[Raam Sho'am]

As established, the BWB is not a reliable source. Certainly not as reliable as Rand at the moment of his decision. As such, your theory is based entirely on what you want to believe rather than any sort of rational case. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, basically.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

I call bull.
There is no reason to say Rand is a more reliable source based on a vision of how HE believe things work, not to mention he had, what, three whole minutes to think it over? That's just as valid as the Big White Book. Not only that, but we know the philosophers of this age can be rather reliable, like Harid Fel.

 

[Zimone Zarasri]

I think it would have been devastating if Rand had killed the Dark One. Like, he must have been created by the Creator for a reason? He's existed as long as the Wheel of Time and the Pattern and he's like an integral part of everything. If he'd been destroyed it feels like it would have dissolved whole the world (though probably not immediately as Rand could see a future for the world, but I don't think that future would have lasted very long)

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Zimone - your argument is the first one that actually makes any sense to me
So far as I am concerned, saying the Big White Book is wrong because it's based on a scholar's PoV, then contradict it by using Rand's PoV instead, is lacking. It's all theory, specualtion and interpretation, based on which PoV we assume has a better chance of being right...
While I still believe my theory to be correct, I can't deny that indeed the creator probably created him for a reason.
Though if this whole "choice" thing is to be looked at at face value, it's terribly disappointing. A little Matrix: Revolution style to my taste. Also, the whole series had nothing to do with choice, etc. If anything, the whole series has been "the wheel weaves as the wheel wills," which to me sounds like no choice at all.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

Rand, being 400+ years old and having memories from the Age of Legends, does know more than an, at most, 70-something scholar in the end of the Third Age.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Does he now?
Again, are we forgettinh Harrid Fel? Rand may be old, but he was never a scholar, and I doubt LTT knew that much about the nature of the DO, seeing as he was discovered rather late into his life. It was also mentioned here by others that the person who wrote the book probably had some rare information regarding the age of legends.

But I really must ask - you all just accept it at face value? Rand seeing a vision of how HE sees things is enough for everyone here to assume that that's indeed how things WILL be? With his new found wisdom and knowledge of less then 10 minutes?
I cannot accept this, especially since I think it contradicts things we've seen in the series about the nature of the DOs influence on people, which is the exact opposite of giving them a choice.

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

I accept it because the part of the scene that made him hesitate was not one he intentionally created. He initially blamed that on the Dark One, but his realization that that was not so, that there truly would be an aspect of humanity *missing* if the Dark One were killed, was true.

There has to be a balance. That emphasized and re-emphasized throughout the entire series, though never so blatantly as in the last book. Not just by Rand, but by everyone. Saidin to balance saidar. Dark to balance light. Egwene's creation weave to balance Balefire. Dark One balances Creator. Etc. Etc. So on, so forth. Even with ta'veren, good things that happen are balanced by bad things that happen.


There is a scene in Bruce Almighty in which he gets frustrated with all the voices in his head from people praying to him, and he grants EVERYONE'S wishes at once. Although inherently a good act, the result is that every single person who prayed to win the lottery, won. In so doing, the "good" from granting that wish became non-existent at that point, and if he had continued to grant those wishes, no one would have bothered to try for that goal any longer.

The same would happen if the Dark One died and evil did not exist. All the reward for doing good would cease to exist. All the reasons to strive to improve (to avoid having bad things happen) would cease to exist. Humanity would stalemate, and if it didn't kill itself off out of sheer apathy within a few generations, a natural disaster or two would wipe them out completely because they would have no clue how to deal with the terror and pain that *natural* chaos can cause.

 

[Keelinnea Isyne]

Time moves differently at the Bore, so was it 10 minutes, 10 days or more? Wasnt he outside of time while they were each showing the other how things couldbe?

I think Rand won. The DO is sealed away, for however long it will be. If he had destroyed the DO it may have led to one of a million possibilities. Maybe Rand just want things to go on with as little a change as possible to how life was then and there.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Really. LTT didn't know much about The Dark One? He was the one who constructed the seals and figured out how to seal the Dark One away. I would say that requires a pretty high expertise on the subject. Anything anyone after the Age of Legends - inlcuding Harid Fel - knew about The Dark One, they got from material from the Age of Legends, along with their own speculations drawn from that. The Dark One has been sealed away since the Breaking started, there's been no way to get a hand on any new information. Any 3rd age scholar who wrote on the subject of whether The Dark One is required for evil to exist, did so on speculation. At the very best, speculations based on fragments from the Age of Legends.

Add to that, Rand had a pretty unique viewpoint. He'd actually been outside the Pattern, seen it, manipulated it to an extent, seen the whole vastness of The Dark One. That combined with LTT's expertise on the subject would make him the foremost expert on The Dark One. Nobody else, except perhaps someone like Moridin, has that kind of insight into the subject.

But I really must ask - you all just accept it at face value? Rand seeing a vision of how HE sees things is enough for everyone here to assume that that's indeed how things WILL be? With his new found wisdom and knowledge of less then 10 minutes?

It's not just his vision. He didn't believe the vision when he saw it, remember? The realisation came afterwards, when seen the vastness of The Dark One, and held it in his grasp.

I cannot accept this, especially since I think it contradicts things we've seen in the series about the nature of the DOs influence on people, which is the exact opposite of giving them a choice.

The only thing it contradicts is The Big White Book, if that.

I'm not saying that your theory is impossible. I am saying that you have presented no evidence for it, aside from a paragraph from a book we know is not reliable. It isn't even indicated, in the least, in AMoL that Rand was fooled.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Actually, it is established that people did evil *before* the Bore and knowledge of the Dark One. Semi tortured people for years before. They had criminals, though far fewer apparently. So the Dark One's continued existence is unnecessary for people to be able to know darkness.

That said, I get it. I can't explain it, but it worked for me.

then again, my boyfriend just brought the book home, and I jumped directly to the last two chapters. :evil