*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

What I'm saying is that it's a lack of choice that Rand sees in the world without the DO. Not the lack of evil. Evil is a conscious choice. The chaos that the DO embodies is what gives us the ability to choose evil. The pattern's balance against good is tragic death, divorce, perhaps your house burns down. None of that is evil, but it all balances the good that the Pattern does.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

But why do you claim chaos is what gives you the choice, and not the existence of evil? In other words, why does the fight between chaos and order gives choice, but not the fight between good and evil?

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

Because the Wheel pretty much decides your life for you. It has to in order to organize all the other threads involved to make a Pattern that works. Without even a little bit of chaos, lives would be SO ordered that as I've said, no one would actually have to think for themselves. They would just respond to things in whatever way the Pattern needed them to respond. Hence Elayne's vacant eyes. You don't really choose between Order an Chaos, they just are. You do choose between Good and Evil. In order to make that choice something must have given it to you.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Interesting.
You're basically saying the end wasn't about good vs. evil at all.

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

Exactly. I just feel that if it was as clear cut as Good vs Evil then there would have been no reason NOT to end the DO. And that's why it wasn't alluded to earlier. No one had considered the possibility that the DO had an aspect that the world needed in order to function properly. That's the way I see it, at any rate.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Hmm... It doesn't answer everything, and it's going against intuition (you're the first person I've seen talking about it. Everyone just took it for granted that it was evil vs. good...), but it's interesting. I need to think on it a little.

Also - while I still think the ending was anti climatic and not foreshadowed enough (that is, ignoring too much foreshadowing from before and giving non for the ending), I can say the debates in this thread make me feel better about the ending. Possibly because it's just fun to talk about :P

 

[Don al'Gooch]

What I'm saying is that it's a lack of choice that Rand sees in the world without the DO. Not the lack of evil. Evil is a conscious choice. The chaos that the DO embodies is what gives us the ability to choose evil. The pattern's balance against good is tragic death, divorce, perhaps your house burns down. None of that is evil, but it all balances the good that the Pattern does.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think it maps well on to the WoT as we know it. Remember, Rand is described as the "Lord of Chaos"...and, that is certainly true. But just because the DO and the Forsaken wanted the Lord of Chaos to "rule" doesn't make the DO the embodiment of Chaos. The logic there was simply that the "chaos" introduced by Rand into the WoT world was serving to harden Rand's heart. Put it this way, if you were right, then most of what Rand did (to the Aiel, to the Nations, to the Seanchan, etc.) was evil, since there's no question that he introduced chaos time and time again. That doesn't make sense to me. D.GOOCH

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Well I think the WoT did introduce the DO as a master of chaos in the sense that he always wanted the order of the pattern to be unraveled. I mentioned the Balefire before, and the fact he wanted it used as much as possible in the last battle. There was a sense that the DO wanted to change the natural order of the pattern, which is what I think Don means.

But I agree with you that, reading the series, the conflict of evil vs. good seems far more evident then that of chaos vs. order, and that we just can't know about the order vs. chaos thing. My intuition too tells me that it's evil vs. good, and not chaos vs. order. But I can't say he's not making some good arguments, especially since I have so many problems with the good vs. evil version... Not that those problems won't transfer to the chaos vs. order, but still

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

No no no, I said earlier that Chaos and Evil are different things. There's a lot of overlay but Chaos itself isn't evil. The Forsaken are usually told to do whatever they want as long as it promotes chaos though. And the fact that it's not WoT as we know it is why I support the theory. As Aulrick has said, there was a lot of foreshadowing regarding what Rand was going to do, and he didn't end up following through on those plans. Something had to have changed. And in that world where Elayne's eyes looked vacant, the only thing I really saw wrong with it, and it seemed what scared Rand, was the lack of thought Elayne had. That doesn't seem like a Good vs Evil thing to me :/ It seems like when the Wheel rules absolutely there's no reason for you to use your head, because everything is predestined anyway.

Edit:

And Rand was pretty dark for a good while. It got so bad he almost ended everything on Dragonmount because of it.

 

[Morvath al'Aeren]

I realize there is great risk reviving this thread, but I don't recall anyone discussing cultural norms when thinking about good vs. evil, in regards to there still being evil if the DO were killed by Rand.

My thought pattern wants to think this:
We assign evil to things like stealing, murder, lying, but these things are neither good nor evil. It's our motivation that assigns things to good or evil. Giving food to the poor for example, most people would think is good, but in some cultures it is evil because "you give a man a fish, he eats one day, teach a man to fish he eats his whole life."

The Seanchan for example, is is their cultural norm to murder. It's not evil to them. It's their cultural norm to have slaves, damane. Not evil. The gai'shan in Aiel camp are also slaves, at least for a year and a day, and that is not evil, in fact it is great ji to have taken gai'shan.

So even if Rand managed to kill the DO, there would still be murder, slavery, stealing and lying. These are just things. Motivation would change.

Sanderson's answer that killing the DO would take away choice, and that's why Rand did not kill him...I think that means it would take away our motivation behind these things, not that people would stop doing them. There would still be choice. Granola for breakfast, or an orange? (for example). A Village Wisdom would still discipline your child if they tried to touch the firepit or a hot tea kettle! I don't think anger would go away, either, because anger is not evil, it simply exists as is. And I don't think any Dragon's Peace no matter how it was worded will make the Aiel stop taking gai'shan lolz.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Morvath - That was my problem with the ending. It's not so much a matter of motivation, as much as evil. There are some things in the series which are clearly evil, and are regarded as such by all - Trollocs, Myrdrall, darkfrends. There was always a clear distinction between evil and bad.

I like the chaos theory, to an extent. It means what Rand saw wasn't lack of evil, or even the lack of badness. It was the lack of choice ingeneral. The pattern chooses everything for everyone. That's the lack of choice.
Here's where this theory falls short, if I remember correctly - it was described not only that people have no choice, but I think it was described that there was no evil anymore, and not even badness. I need to reread it when I'm home.

 

[Fanatic Mr Fox]

To me, aMoL ended perfectly. I think Rand.2 lighting the impossible pipe as he snuck out the back door was genius: an absolute masters piece. That said, i can understand the anger at Rand for sneaking out on everyone, but for the sake of the Dragons peace, it had to happen like that, because it happened like that. The way RJ described the bore to me was like a mini blackhole, and when Rand stepped outside the pattern to face the DO, he sees the universe to the level of super-string theory. And if the super-symetry theory is correct, then the DO is definatel unkilable: the force of creation balances the force of destruction. I think of the Creator and DO as matter and anti-matter. Rand could have tried to kill the DO, but it would take the entire power of the Creators realm to do so, and ultimately cancel each other out. Moiraine did warn Rand that to kill the DO would be worse than if the DO won. When Rand was beyond, he saw the truth in what she said and with Herrid Fells advice, sealed the bore anew.

 

[Azeal Cairdin]

Okay, I know it's been a while since anybody posted here, but I'm new to the forums. I have a theory that I'd like to test, so please, rip it to shreds if you can:

There is no Dark One.

At least, not the way everybody thinks there is. I think there is a force, the True Power, that was sealed away from the pattern, but it lacks a consciousness.
Think about it, when has the dark one ever actually done anything?
Who controls the forces of the Shadow at the last battle? Not the Dark One. Demandred.
Who hunts Rand, Mat, and Perrin from the beginning of the series? Not the Dark One. Ishamael.
Who made the Shadowspawn? Not the Dark One. Aginor.
Who killed the Seanchan Empress? Not the Dark One. Semihrage.
What does the Shadow ever directly do?

His "touch" on the pattern only ever produces a small number of effects. Bubbles of evil, bad weather, and changing the layouts of buildings.
These could both easily be accomplished by an unintelligent, negative force. Extending summer, extending winter, these aren't TARGETED. They're broad effects that alter how the Pattern is being woven. An unintelligent force could affect the pattern in this broad stroke.
As for the bubbles of evil, they're not the result of any intent either. And we know they're not. They're always described as random. They often affect people who are not actively opposing the Shadow, and certainly they affect people who are not Ta'veren.
They are all entropic effects. A breakdown of order. The True Power is a chaotic force.

The only other thing the Dark One directly does is taining Saidin. And That doesn't seem to be the act of a thinking mind either. If the Dark One is just the True Power, then why wouldn't directly channeling Saidin into him, massive amounts of it (when LTT sealed the Bore) cause the two to bleed together a little.
After all, the taint on Saidin has exactly the same effects as using the TP, except weaker. Sure, it doesn't produce saa, but both of them sure do make you insane. They make you lose control. Make you hear or see things.

The True Power is reactive. It reacts to our expectations. To our fears. For there to be a Shadow, something must cast it.
How would things have been different if, rather than the Dark One trying to escape, it was Ishamael, later Moridin, guiding the forces of the Dark?
He certainly acted as the Dark one during EOTW and TGH. He even seemed to believe it. And what does Moridin want? An ending. HE is the one who wants a broken wheel, an end to the pattern. So of course he believes the Dark one is trying to do just that.
The fact of the matter is, we don't know what the TP is capable of. Moridin is the only person who ever used it extensively. Is it possible to use the TP to resurrect people? We don't know.


What we do know, is that the TP has an effect on the mind. It's euphoria. It's agony. It's a drug, the most powerful drug ever.
It's intersting then, that after Demandred speaks to the Dark One in LOC , he experiences something similar. He experiences ecstacy and agony. He esperiences something very like touching the TP.

We also know that the madness caused by the TP is something that has caused hallucinations.
And We have seen it before. LTT's voice in Rand's head. Remember, he was NEVER a separate person. NEVER a different soul. He was ALWAYS just Rand. And yet he appeared as a distinct person, with external knowledge and agency.

He's a part of Rand given voice. Why can't the Dark One be the same?



People always talk about the Shadow making promises to his followers, but who is making those promises? Who speaks directly with the Dark One?
We only have a very limited number of examples of this in the series. He talks to one or two of the Forsaken


And finally, Robert Jordan was always peppering subtle hints throughout the series. Look at the names for the Dark One. Every culture names him what they fear the most. What is the most hateful to him. Leafblighter for the Aiel. They would all be wiped out if they lost the little access to food they have. Not to mention the significance of the Tree of Life to them. Father of Storms for the Sea Folk. For a seafaring people, what could be more dangerous that the cause of storms? What could be more hated?
And what about his true name? Shai'tan.
Speaking of names, what does Shai'tan call Rand when rand confronts him in AMoL? Adversary. Not Dragon. Not LTT. Not worm. Not Rand. Not Lord of the Morning. Adversary.
What does Shai'tan mean? It's Arabic. It translates to: Adversary.
Why would the Dark One call Rand by his own name?
Because the Shadow we fight is the one we cast. What does Rand say of the Dark one after he truly undestands him. He is not the enemy. He is nothing.

That's because he is a force, not a being. You can't kill a force. You can remove its effects, which created the pure Light world Rand made, the one without choice. Because the TP, the Dark One, is entropy. Chaos. It has never been anything else. It is the chaos within us.
The enemy was never an evil, supernatural being. It was an imbalance in the amount of entropy in the pattern.


As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with my theory is Shaidar Haran. But although he claims he's the hand of the dark, he is the one who makes the claims. He manipulates the Chosen. And his orders never seem to conflict with Moridin's. And at Shayol Ghul, when we see the empty husk of Shaidar Haran, who is it that stands beside it? Moridin.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

I just had a crazy thought... Why on earth do we assume there is no time outside the pattern?

It's been stated by characters living in the pattern, but... They have been wrong before.
The DO speaking about past battles against the dragon means he remembers them, which implies time. Maybe it's not that there is NO time outside the pattern, buy that the time outside the pattern is linear.

As for Azeal's theory - the DO spoke directly to people. At the last battle, it's clearly described that Rand catches something by the throat. So something is there.

 

[Azeal Cairdin]

Something did speak directly to people. That doesn't mean there was a consciousness behind it.
It's interesting that only channelers ever hear the Dark One.
Demandred hears the voice of the Dark One in the prologue to Lord of Chaos. He describes it as agony and ecstasy. The same as the feeling if touching the true power.
Moridin SAYS he has spoken to the Dark One. But he also claims to be the Dark One for two books. He claims Rand can never defeat him. I find it hard to trust his claims.

If you go back and look, the times the Dark One speaks on the page are VERY few and far between. The only order he gives Demandred in LoC is to use Balefire. Which is odd. In aMoL, during Rand's conflict with the Dark One, he learns that Shai'tan DOES NOT want to destroy the pattern, he wants to control it. So why risk Balefire then? Who wants the pattern destroyed? Moridin. Who passes on all the Dark One's orders for the last few books. Moridin.

And we've seen cases of people talking to something that turned out not to exist.
LTT's voice in Rand's head. Yes, he heard a voice, and yes, that voice spoke to Rand, but there was never another person there. Just an aspect of himself.

As for Rand catching something by the throat, unless I'm mistaken, Aulrick, in this thread you have made it a point to say that a character's perception is not necessarily reality. Rand grabs SOMETHING, and he affects it, but that may not be an assurance that the thing he grabbed was a throat.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Yeah, except he does this while channeling the True Power, and by the description it sounds as though it's different from whatever it is he pulls into the pattern. Whatever you call it, throat or not, he grabs something and drags it into the pattern. But the True Power was always usable in the pattern (as long as there is a bore), so what is he dragging into the pattern? For sure there are two things - the True Power and something else.

Also, the True Power is only usable by some people, who are given it by... Someone. Someone or something with a concience is giving them the ability, and it's selective... Selective means someone decides.

 

[Azeal Cairdin]

As for your first point, just because there was something there, does not mean that something was sentient. A force can have a physical source without being sentient. I can grab a magnet, and in doing so have an effect on its magnetic field, but that doesn't mean the magnet is sentient.

As for your second, it's true that only some use the True Power. As for being granted access, though...
Who tells us that? The Forsaken? Have any of them tried to touch it without being told they have permission? No, because they're too afraid. So we have no way of knowing if they could touch it without being "given permission."

In fact, we know of someone who does touch the True Power without permission. Rand himself. He touches it when he's collared by Semihrage. He touches it out of the most intense desperation he's ever had. That desperation, to me, sounds a lot like when wilders touch the One Power for the first time. And there's no punishment that comes from the Dark One when he does. There's no moment where he's prevented from using it.

If you ignore what people SAY, and look at what they DO, then every single person who actively tries to touch the True Power succeeds.

 

[Lunara al'Kiera]

Thus far, this is the most intriguing debate I've seen so far on this site. I'll have to keep checking it to see if it continues.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

As for your first point, just because there was something there, does not mean that something was sentient. A force can have a physical source without being sentient. I can grab a magnet, and in doing so have an effect on its magnetic field, but that doesn't mean the magnet is sentient.

Except the DO talked to people, and here's the description from the finale:

The Dark One tried to pull back, but Rand's claw was gloved by the True Power. The enemy could not taint saidin again. The Dark One tried to withdraw the True Power from Moridin, but the conduit flowed too freely

Even if we assume that this is written from Rand's perspective, the fact he feels someone is trying to withdraw the power suggests someone with survival instincts understands that he's in danger.

Also, even if we assume that the forsaken never attempted to draw the power without permission (which I doubt, especially during the war of power), they were still in contact with him. Maybe it was them talking to themselves in their mind, but there are great similarities between what he tells them. Too much to be a coincidence.

However, I'm not sure he's sentient in the way you or I think.
The DO is a force. He's either evil, chaos or both. As such, when this force effects others, there are consequences. But it is aware.
It's difficult to give an example, as this is a fantasy series, but imagine earth's gravity as a sentient being. It can communicate, it can be understood, but what it wants, what it does, is pull people and objects towards the earth. If you'd ask him why, he'd say it's his nature. It's what he is.

I don't think I explained it right...
Just because something is a force doesn't mean it isn't sentient. It only means that it's drive isn't self preservation, power, lust or other forces which effects people. It's drive, it's purpose, is to do what he was meant to do.

In fact, we know of someone who does touch the True Power without permission. Rand himself. He touches it when he's collared by Semihrage. He touches it out of the most intense desperation he's ever had. That desperation, to me, sounds a lot like when wilders touch the One Power for the first time.

Ok, first: Rand touches the TP via proxy. It is described clearly.
Second, who on earth said that wilders first touch the power during times of intense desperation? In fact we are clearly told that it's different for each channeler.
Third, IF the TP could have been touched by others... Why has no one ever done it? We know of exactly 14 people who, for sure, even know of it's existence. Those are Rand and the Forsaken. If it's not something given to people, how come no one ever accidentaly channeled it?

And there's no punishment that comes from the Dark One when he does. There's no moment where he's prevented from using it.

Of course not... Now that you mention it, I think the DO may have done so purposefully. He later talks about how the DO almost had him, to Egwene I think. It makes sense, because we know what the DO tried to do to him, and we know the effects the TP has on people.

If you ignore what people SAY, and look at what they DO, then every single person who actively tries to touch the True Power succeeds.

This last is a very problematic statement. You have no way of knowing if someone tried it, nor if anyone tried without permission and succeeded, except Rand who was Balefired connected to someone who we know could touch it, and we know their connection had some... Side effects...

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Oh and also, during the same scene, it's clearly described that Rand knows all of the DO's secrets and lies... Lies mean someone chose not to show the truth, which again suggests a sentient being.