*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Aulrick Vendour]

Alright so the way I see it, the DO is the manifestation of chaos. The shadow actually has more choice than the light. Maybe not to PICK the shadow necessarily, but generally they can do as they wish as long as it promotes chaos and destruction. Without the DO there's no CHAOS. The pattern is order. Ina world of pure order no one has to think for themselves.

OK, several things. Let's say the DO is chaos. This doesn't mean the pattern is "order." The pattern is balance, which is not the same as order. For example, theft is a tool by the pattern to redistribute money. There is no reason to think (except for the part in the end, which is my problem) that the DO is the one giving the pattern that tool instead of letting it use other tools.

The pattern's balance between good and bad is generally through random occurrence as opposed to evil human intervention. As can be seen through the things that happen around Rand. It's not that bad things don't happen, it's that no one has to think. Everything happens as it should.

But if that's true, then the whole choice issue is irrelevant in any case. No one has a choice, with or without the DO. People do what they do because the pattern tells them to do it.

Think of it from an unbiased POV. The Pattern can give and take money as it pleases. It doesn't need theft, and thus, theft doesn't exist. You can't commit an evil that you can't even conceive.

Like I said, theft is a tool. The pattern is balance, meaning it will use this tool just as it uses other tools.

You attacked me, and didn't apologize back when I made the first apology.

Well, I only meant to defend myself when being attacked. Didn't mean to attack you. Sorry about that.

That's my point, I can't argue one is overall 'better' or 'worse' than another because that's all up to our individual opinions. But I am questioning why you criticize this one, and offer reasons that apply equally to the other endings you like better.

Really? So if I have, say, 5 problems with the ending, and I give you another one that solves 3-4 of the 5 problems, that ending is not better because some problems still remain?

It matters a lot, it is the most important part of this. You can't say the books have bad writing because they mislead the readers, based on information that was not given in the books. Going solely off of what was read in the books, a reader would not have been led to believe this cycle would be any different than any other. If a reader got that impression because of what the author mentioned in an interview, that doesn't mean his writing] is bad.

Yes I can, and I explained why.
For starters, I expect someone like Jordan to not say things like that if they're not true. He is a master of his world.
Secondly, even IF we disregard that statement, the ending is still detached, since the DO giving choice was never a part of the books, and choice by itself was hardly ever an important part of it and never connected to the DO when it was, except for the turning of channelers.

I'm saying it's no more detached than the endings you like better. I have shown connections other than the ones you ask for, so you now have to show why the ending(s) you like are better connected than what I have already stated.

What connections? You didn't show any of the connections I requested.

Honestly, guys, it's a simple matter. You're saying the ending isn't detached, I asked for something very specific, very simple - where in the series has the DO been connected to GIVING someone a choice between good and evil?

So far Don was the one who came closest by showing that people's free choices are hidden in the series (though most of his relevant examples weren't exactly between good and evil. For example, the Seanchan empire takes away ALL choice by making people property. It's not a matter of choice between good and evil, but free will).

I can also admit now that his answer renewed SOME of my confident in the ending, though I still think it's a bad one, detached, anti climatic and... Well simply disappointingly bad.

 

[MuKen]

Well, I only meant to defend myself when being attacked. Didn't mean to attack you. Sorry about that.

I see myself as having been attacked first, until I defended myself. Even so, I apologized first to de-escalate the situation; I didn't think that would be taken as a sign of weakness on my part. But the return apology is appreciated. If you wish to discuss it further, I suggest we move it to PMs as we've been asked not to continue this in the thread.

Really? So if I have, say, 5 problems with the ending, and I give you another one that solves 3-4 of the 5 problems, that ending is not better because some problems still remain?

You don't have 5, you have 2, and the alternatives you propose do not seem to fix them to me. Both seem to me to be even more disconnected than what we got. The first because the only thing that connects it to the books is a statement that isn't in the books. The second because it still violates the theme of the wheel (arguably one of the most important themes of the series), and connects itself to the idea of the DO being necessary for choice, which to you "doesn't make sense".

For starters, I expect someone like Jordan to not say things like that if they're not true. He is a master of his world.

It's not about whether it's true or not, I've said this half a dozen times already. I agree it is true.

The point is that even if he wrote in his notes it is true, if he doesn't mention it in the books, you cannot say that his books led the readers to whatever end you see coming from that fact. I am saying to give an ending that relies on a connection that he didn't write in his book would be terribly disconnected from the books.

Secondly, even IF we disregard that statement, the ending is still detached, since the DO giving choice was never a part of the books, and choice by itself was hardly ever an important part of it and never connected to the DO when it was, except for the turning of channelers.

Talking about this point is meant to discuss why your ending is extremely detached, not why the one we got is not.

I do not understand why it is so important that the point of 'choice' be connected, but the themes of balance and the wheel seem to have no value, despite them being (at least I thought) the central themes of the series. If being connected is so important, why is it ok to throw away these vital connections, and for what in return?

What connections? You didn't show any of the connections I requested.

I just said that they weren't the ones you requested. It connects to the infinite wheel and the theme of balance, two if the most iconic parts of the series. All the endings you post fail to connect to one or both of these, so I want to know what 'extra' connections they have to compensate for this?

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

You don't have 5, you have 2, and the alternatives you propose do not seem to fix them to me. Both seem to me to be even more disconnected than what we got. The first because the only thing that connects it to the books is a statement that isn't in the books. The second because it still violates the theme of the wheel (arguably one of the most important themes of the series), and connects itself to the idea of the DO being necessary for choice, which to you "doesn't make sense".

It violates nothing, as I've explained before. The theme of the wheel is balance and repetitive time. The DO, being outside the pattern, is in no way part of either repetitive time, nor is he supposed to be part of the balance. Hence, getting rid of him won't hurt anything.
Also, even without what RJ said, Fain being a force able to oppose and even kill the DO's evilness was mentioned more then enough. No need for RJ to say anything. What he said simply makes it stronger to understand his importance.

The point is that even if he wrote in his notes it is true, if he doesn't mention it in the books, you cannot say that his books led the readers to whatever end you see coming from that fact. I am saying to give an ending that relies on a connection that he didn't write in his book would be terribly disconnected from the books.

And so, again, I can disregard the saying about Rand vision to be true. It was said by BS. In the books it's just Rand's PoV, he thinks he's right.
Thank you. You solved all of my problems.

Talking about this point is meant to discuss why your ending is extremely detached, not why the one we got is not.

I don't think my ending is detached at all. It gives us a fitting ending to Fain, using themes that we've seen in the series in the past, while keeping the repetitive time and the wheel in tact, which means balance is preserved. How is it detached from the series? In this ending, whether or not the DO is the source of evil is irrelevant. Even if the DO IS the source, he's still alive, and so balance is preserved. If he's not, then it still doesn't matter, since the wheel keeps turning and balance is maintained.
How is it detached?

It connects to the infinite wheel and the theme of balance

No, it doesn't. Let's say it this way: if the DO WASN'T the source of all evil, and Rand would kill him, would that change anything? He's outside the pattern, so there's no reason his death would break the wheel. It simply means that he will no longer influence the pattern from outside. Balance is still maintained, because evil is not based on him, and the pattern will still have evil in it... If you can change it and nothing in the books will change - that's what I mean by detachment. You can easily just delete that part, and nothing backwards in the series will need changing.
Do you not call this detachment?

All the endings you post fail to connect to one or both of these, so I want to know what 'extra' connections they have to compensate for this?

See above. Non of the endings I and others thought of fail to connect to either of these. On the contrary, they're based on everything we've seen in the series. The reason for that is that they're based on things that were in the books, foreshadowings, etc.
The only ending someone suggested (I actually liked it, but it CHANGES what we know. NOTE: It shows us the change, it doesn't simply tell us something new. It tells us "things WERE like that, and now they've changed and are now like THIS") is that the wheel will be broken and time will turn linear.

Even that ending, see the difference between it and the ending we got? It says "yes, things worked out like that, now because of things that happened, it CHANGED." The ending we got basically said "Everything you thought you knew was simply wrong, the foreshadowing useless, things are contradictory and inconsistent with themselves" and so on and so forth.

 

[MuKen]

It violates nothing, as I've explained before. The theme of the wheel is balance and repetitive time. The DO, being outside the pattern, is in no way part of either repetitive time, nor is he supposed to be part of the balance. Hence, getting rid of him won't hurt anything.

When he is in the pattern he IS part of time. Are you saying that having him not be there in future turns is really being "repetitive"? Like he doesn't make a significant difference to what happens? The DO not being in the Pattern is a breaking of the wheel.

And so, again, I can disregard the saying about Rand vision to be true. It was said by BS. In the books it's just Rand's PoV, he thinks he's right.
Thank you. You solved all of my problems.

Again, and I wish this would be for the last time, but I know it won't, I'm not saying what he says isn't true. I ACCEPT THAT WHAT HE SAID ABOUT FAIN IS TRUE. So please stop speaking as if I don't.

Even if the DO IS the source, he's still alive, and so balance is preserved. If he's not, then it still doesn't matter, since the wheel keeps turning and balance is maintained.
How is it detached?

I was not saying your 2nd ending violates balance, I was saying your first does. Your 2nd ending simply violates the wheel.

I don't think my ending is detached at all.

Alright, let's put this in a hypothetical. Let's say your ending was what we got. You're here on the forums, saying what a great ending it is. Someone else comes in and says "I thought only the DO can break the wheel, how come suddenly Rand can use Fain to do it? Heck didn't he specifically say only the Shadow WANTS to break the wheel? This seems really disconnected from the rest of the series."

Then you respond "Well, RJ told us Fain is outside the wheel years ago, sorry you didn't see that."

Does this really seem like a connected series now?

The ending we got basically said "Everything you thought you knew was simply wrong, the foreshadowing useless, things are contradictory and inconsistent with themselves" and so on and so forth.

That's exactly what I'm saying both your endings do with the wheel. You thought you knew it repeats forever unless the DO breaks it, but suddenly it's revealed at the end of the series either side can break it. So why is it ok for this, but not for what you are saying?




Driving home early, will not be back to post until tonight.

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

OK, several things. Let's say the DO is chaos. This doesn't mean the pattern is "order." The pattern is balance, which is not the same as order. For example, theft is a tool by the pattern to redistribute money.

The DO is chaos. Evidence can be found throughout the series. Shaidar Haran's scenes with the Forsaken are a good example. And no, THAT itself doesn't mean the Pattern is order, but the Pattern weaves what is essentially the tapestry of Fate. Everyone has their place in that tapestry, and the Pattern works to add more threads and keep everything as it should be. There is a certain leeway to choices, less so with Ta'veren, but every choice you make has a place made to accommodate your choice.

There is no reason to think

This is a really poor choice of words in my opinion. You may not agree with me, and that's fine. I didn't think I'd resolve this issue :P But there is a reason that I believe this, and it's the main crux of what I was talking about. If the Pattern existed on its own, people could exist without independent thought, because their lives would be constant. The Pattern does allow choice but it doesn't inspire choice itself. The Pattern does not differentiate between good and bad, but it is neither inherently good nor inherently evil. I don't recall any incidents where the Pattern caused someone to do something evil. Theft we can agree, is an act of greed and evil. At least I hope we can agree :P

But if that's true, then the whole choice issue is irrelevant in any case. No one has a choice, with or without the DO. People do what they do because the pattern tells them to do it.

Choice is extremely relevant. The DO is what gives choice. It sounds crazy, perhaps that the DO might offer something good to the world, but that is the whole reason Rand can't kill him outright. Order needs a little bit of Chaos. If everything is decided for you, which is the Pattern's very nature, then there is no choice. It's the introduction of a little bit of chaos that gives that little bit of bend that a thread in the fabric of Fate can have.

Like I said, theft is a tool. The pattern is balance, meaning it will use this tool just as it uses other tools.

That you feel it is a tool to be used, does not mean the Creator or the Pattern agree. Which brings me to my closing argument.

I'm not saying any of what I say is accurate. My only goal was to offer up a valid theory. This entire situation is pure speculation. Maybe when RJ's notes are released we'll know for sure, but as of right now, there are no right or wrong answers.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

All valid, except that in any series, TV show, etc., the bad guys CHOOSE to do bad things for whatever reason. This in no way connects the DO as the SOURCE of evil in the universe. I already said ages ago in this thread that the fact people MAKE choices in a series doesn't mean that choice onto itself is important. Nor in the case of the Wheel of Time does it in anyway connect the DO with the source of the choice. In the examples you gave, the DO was the TOOL for those people to gain the whatever they wanted, or it was forced upon them.
I have yet to see the thing that I was looking for in the first place - where in the series is the DO connected to giving the choice, thus making the choice itself the integral part? It's always the other way around in any way you think on it. He's either taking the choice away, providing a tool for the bad guy's choices, etc., but he's never GIVING the choice. Your example of Elaida is actually a good one, because it shows us how evil can be done WITHOUT the use of the DO's tools like darkfriends use, thus also nolifing an argument that could have been made about the DO giving people the choice by giving them the tools. The tools are already there without him as well.

The idea that the DO is the source of evil, the concept of it, is just opposite to the series. It makes no sense at all... To me at least.

As I said, I'm not really in either camp, just throwing ideas out there. As for you having already said stuff in this thread - be aware that it's been going on for weeks, the posts are HUGE and frankly, I can't keep track of who is arguing for what most of the time

I found Elaida interesting anyway. Mainly because I tend to be interested in characters who make me hate them with such passion.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Muken - I think we should start by saying what exactly we mean when we say breaking the wheel, because most of your message makes no sense to what I'd call breaking the wheel.
The way I see it, breaking the wheel means no more circular time. That's what it means. A change in the pattern which repeats itself over and over is not breaking the wheel, so far as I am concerned. The DO touches the pattern from outside. His touch isn't a natural part of the turning (because he's not a part of the wheel in any way, which is something I think we can all agree upon). This means that if he stops touching the pattern, the wheel will keep spinning just like before, except without his influence from now on.
Since we know change is possible in the wheel's turning (thank you, Fain) we have no reason to assume how big or small those changes can be. This basically means that huge stuff can happen in one turning, and not in another, and the wheel will keep spinning. The DO no longer touching the pattern should in no way cause the wheel to break.

Again, and I wish this would be for the last time, but I know it won't, I'm not saying what he says isn't true. I ACCEPT THAT WHAT HE SAID ABOUT FAIN IS TRUE. So please stop speaking as if I don't.

I understand you accept that it's true... But if I were just a normal reader, with no knowledge of what is said by the authors, I would have no reason to think what Rand saw is true.
Ignorence is a bliss.

I was not saying your 2nd ending violates balance, I was saying your first does. Your 2nd ending simply violates the wheel.

Except niether violates either :wink

Alright, let's put this in a hypothetical. Let's say your ending was what we got. You're here on the forums, saying what a great ending it is. Someone else comes in and says "I thought only the DO can break the wheel, how come suddenly Rand can use Fain to do it? Heck didn't he specifically say only the Shadow WANTS to break the wheel? This seems really disconnected from the rest of the series."

Well first of all, we were never told ONLY the shadow wants to break the wheel. We were told the DO CAN break the wheel and reshape time in his image. We were never told ONLY he can do it.
Further more - we've seen Rand use Fain against the DO in the series. In fact that theme repeated TWICE, in very important roles. Once it saved Rand's life, and was a foreshadowing of the second time, in which it helped clean Saidin from the DO's taint... Are you seriously suggesting we had no reason to suspect Fain can be used against the DO, when he infact was used for that exact purpose twice already?

Then you respond "Well, RJ told us Fain is outside the wheel years ago, sorry you didn't see that."

Again, we seem to be talking of different things when we say "break the wheel." In non of my endings did I think the wheel will be broken. That was indeed suggested in the book 13 forums as a theory, and I actually liked it, but it wasn't my theory on the end, nor was it part of any of the examples I gave that you're talking about... Unless you think breaking the wheel is something else then I think, which it seems you do.

That's exactly what I'm saying both your endings do with the wheel. You thought you knew it repeats forever unless the DO breaks it, but suddenly it's revealed at the end of the series either side can break it. So why is it ok for this, but not for what you are saying?

Because that's just not true... The DO can break the wheel if he get's out. That doesn't mean no one else can. In fact, we know that the use of too much Balefire can cause A LOT of damage to the pattern, unraveling it all together if used too much, which I also considered the same as breaking the wheel.

This is a really poor choice of words in my opinion. You may not agree with me, and that's fine. I didn't think I'd resolve this issue :P But there is a reason that I believe this, and it's the main crux of what I was talking about.

When I say no reason to think, I mean it's something not mentioned or hinted or foreshadowed or whatever in the books, not that people don't think it :P

If the Pattern existed on its own, people could exist without independent thought, because their lives would be constant. The Pattern does allow choice but it doesn't inspire choice itself. The Pattern does not differentiate between good and bad, but it is neither inherently good nor inherently evil. I don't recall any incidents where the Pattern caused someone to do something evil. Theft we can agree, is an act of greed and evil. At least I hope we can agree :P

There's actually an interesting question I raised a while back about the whole thieving question being evil or not. You should look it up at previous pages.
Anyway, That's not true. If the pattern is balanced, and the DO brings in the evil, then the pattern IS inherently good. If without the DO people will do no evil, that means the pattern doesn't ALLOW evil without the DO, which means it's good. If it wasn't it could have allowed anything anyone wanted, no matter if the DO is alive or dead. That's exactly how I think things should have worked. The pattern is balance. Balance consists of both good and evil. This means the pattern should allow both without any outside interfearence.

Choice is extremely relevant. The DO is what gives choice. It sounds crazy, perhaps that the DO might offer something good to the world, but that is the whole reason Rand can't kill him outright. Order needs a little bit of Chaos.

It doesn't "sound crazy," it just sound inconsistent and contradictory. To me, at least. Also I understand the ending. It's really not that complicated. I just think it's bad.
Lastly - I agree order needs a little bit of chaos, I just disagree that the pattern is order, thus I do't think it should need the DO's chaos. The pattern is just balance.

If everything is decided for you, which is the Pattern's very nature, then there is no choice. It's the introduction of a little bit of chaos that gives that little bit of bend that a thread in the fabric of Fate can have.

Great, except (A) you're contradicting what you said just before about every choice one makes has a place in the pattern (no reason that wouldn't be true without the DO) and (B) no reason the DO will be the one responsible for that choice. Everything you say about the pattern can easily be true if people have free will to choose between good and evil WITHOUT the DO being the source of evil... So the ending is, again, detached.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

What connections? You didn't show any of the connections I requested.

Honestly, guys, it's a simple matter. You're saying the ending isn't detached, I asked for something very specific, very simple - where in the series has the DO been connected to GIVING someone a choice between good and evil?

NO WHERE, BECAUSE THE DARK ONE DOESN'T GIVE CHOICE.

I've tried to say this before but apparently it wasn't clear enough. The Dark One does not GIVE choice. Giving implies intentional action. When the DO is sealed away in his prison, he is not alive in any sense of the word we'd usually associate with alive. He's not a being, he is not personified. He simply is a force.

Saying the DO gives choice and saying that he is necessary for choice are two very, very different things, and you're getting them confused.

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

When I say no reason to think, I mean it's something not mentioned or hinted or foreshadowed or whatever in the books, not that people don't think it :P

Some things can be inferred and do not have to be directly mentioned.

There's actually an interesting question I raised a while back about the whole thieving question being evil or not. You should look it up at previous pages.
Anyway, That's not true. If the pattern is balanced, and the DO brings in the evil, then the pattern IS inherently good. If without the DO people will do no evil, that means the pattern doesn't ALLOW evil without the DO, which means it's good. If it wasn't it could have allowed anything anyone wanted, no matter if the DO is alive or dead. That's exactly how I think things should have worked. The pattern is balance. Balance consists of both good and evil. This means the pattern should allow both without any outside interfearence.

There is no way I'm going through all of that again lmao. Again it's a difference of opinions, anyway. I don't think it will be resolved. I for one, know that I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to my opinions on things like that haha. As for the Pattern being inherently good or not, it's in the book several times. I don't have an exact example of it, though perhaps I'll do some digging, but I know Moiraine definitely told Rand that the Pattern is NOT good or evil. It simply is. The problem I think people are having, is that they are seeing this as a fight between Good and Evil. I see it more as a battle between Order and Chaos. The Pattern does have a propensity for Good and Bad, but Bad and Evil are not the same thing.

It doesn't "sound crazy," it just sound inconsistent and contradictory. To me, at least. Also I understand the ending. It's really not that complicated. I just think it's bad.
Lastly - I agree order needs a little bit of chaos, I just disagree that the pattern is order, thus I do't think it should need the DO's chaos. The pattern is just balance.

It's not inconsistent or contradictory. Naturally people think that the world would be a better place if the Dark One was gone. "Dead" if that is possible. Rand had to SEE what would happen in a vision before he understood that that was wrong. Something no one has ever had the chance to do. Of course there was no previous knowledge of that. When did anyone ever step out of the Pattern and look at the possibility? It was a fundamental moment for the whole world when Rand made that realization.

Great, except (A) you're contradicting what you said just before about every choice one makes has a place in the pattern (no reason that wouldn't be true without the DO) and (B) no reason the DO will be the one responsible for that choice. Everything you say about the pattern can easily be true if people have free will to choose between good and evil WITHOUT the DO being the source of evil... So the ending is, again, detached.

Also not a contradiction. You're viewing them as connected statements because they involve the Pattern. One is referring to the Pattern as it is (With the Dark One's existence) The other is referring to what the Pattern would be WITHOUT the Dark One's influence. And once again, you're hung up on the DO being evil. I don't think he is. Oddly enough, it was this thread that made me realize that haha Chaos and Evil just have a lot of overlay.

 

[Don al'Gooch]

The Dark One doesn't represent an elimination of choice. The Dark One is the choice (or one of the options of the choice between Evil/Shadow vs. Good/Light). The Dark One is Evil. Selfishness. Greed. Vanity. Jealousy. The view of Good/Evil put forward by RJ is very Catholic. Note how the Forsaken are, in many ways, avatars for the 7 deadly sins. Demandred/Sammeal = Jealousy / Pride / Envy. Arangar = Lust. Graendal = Vanity. They all exhibit Greed and Wrath and Envy. The Dark One is the sentient embodiment of these human failings. So while these are bad - moral failings, and a world dominated by these would be horrible, you also cannot eliminate them. A world in which humans could not choose evil is one in which they lack agency to begin with. That is the philosophical problem with Rand "killing" the Dark One. To kill "evil" is to eliminate the capacity of human to choose evil...which is to eliminate the capacity to choose to be good. That is the truth that Rand discovers when he battles the DO. D.GOOCH

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Eluial - we have no reason to think that the DO is different while touching the pattern and while not touching it. The book described how Rand catches the DO and dragging him into the pattern. This suggests a being of some sort. Are you saying that being disappears once the bore is sealed, and suddenly appears again once the bore is made? If so, I'd like to know your sources for this claim.

Madrin - while I like the whole Chaos vs. Evil thing, and I agree that Chaos on itself is NOT evil, those are different things, I think you're touching a subject here that we've never really talked about before. The ending was rather clear about the evil part of the DO, what with the things Rand saw in his visions (not just the one with Elayn, but the others too). To try and say that the evil part isn't about evil but about chaos is... strange... for me to understand, since I can't see how you've reached that conclusion.
The DO is chaos. I agree. The DO is also evil. This doesn't mean that all chaos is evil or that all evilness is chaotic. The fact that he's both those things also doesn't mean that the pattern is good and orderly. If that's what you're saying, then I completely agree with you.

Except the ending of the book tells us differently. It tells us, along with RJs remark that what Rand saw in the Elayn vision was true, that the pattern is indeed inherently good. If it wasn't then there would also be evil without the DO. If you say without the DO the pattern has no evil in it, one cannot escape the logic that the pattern is inherently good. It's the only explanation I can think of. Otherwise, why would there be no evil without the DO?

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

Ok fair enough, I shouldn't have made it sound like he wasn't evil, because that's not what I'm trying to get across. He's about as evil as evil gets. I just meant that the fight itself is better classified as Order vs. Chaos for this debate. The world could exist without evil, hypothetically, though it's really hard to say without seeing how it would turn out. It's the choices that chaos lends that is the reason the DO must go on.

What happened with Elayne is what I mentioned early. She had no independent thought, the Pattern decided everything in that existence. That's what was wrong with her eyes. The chaos offers choice, and man is flawed. We create evil with the choices we make. Since the Pattern is Order and The lack of evil (I guess you can use Good, but don't get it confused for ALL good) then the DO must be the embodiment of Chaos and evil. Again though, Good and Evil are the byproducts of the Order and Chaos. In my opinion anyway.

Maybe to best describe the Pattern I should use the example of Rand's being Ta'veren. When he was around, people both survived miraculous accidents, and died doing mundane things. People married and divorced. Good and bad in equal parts. But not evil.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Eluial - we have no reason to think that the DO is different while touching the pattern and while not touching it. The book described how Rand catches the DO and dragging him into the pattern. This suggests a being of some sort. Are you saying that being disappears once the bore is sealed, and suddenly appears again once the bore is made? If so, I'd like to know your sources for this claim.

Actually, we have every reason to believe that.

We're told that outside of the pattern there's no time. That time only comes from being in contact with the pattern. Therefore, when the DO is sealed away he experiences no time. He only experiences time when he's able to contact the pattern (after the bore is drilled).

In order to have intentions, you need to have time. It's definitional. An intention is a plan you make about the future. If there's no time, there's no future, and no intentions.

Think of it as the classic SciFi example of a computer "waking up" or becoming self aware. It's not a perfect analogy, but basically, before the computer is self aware, it has no memory of itself being. But once it becomes self aware it can starting remembering itself as a self.

So no, there aren't two separate entities, they're just different aspects of the same thing. When the DO gains access to the pattern and is able to experience time he "wakes up." He becomes evil personified, instead of just the concept of evil.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Well, I think we already had this conversation in another thread :P About how the DO doesn't experience time, but he CAN experience different touchings of the pattern, and he can tell them apart.
This is all getting rather sci-fi physics now. Can't remember which thread it was... About how the DO can never win, because for him there is only one battle, because he sees the wheel from the outside? I think you were in that thread too right?

Madrin - I disagree with you, but this really is a matter of opinion. I think unlike many things in this series, the last battle was very clear. It was evil vs. good, not order vs. chaos. But even if that's how you choose to look at it - that's not contradictory. The battle might as well have been both good vs. evil AND chaos vs. order. I fail to see how that would make any difference. All your messages do, in essenece, is explain to me what the ending meant. I understand what it means. I understand what the DO is according to this ending and all. I just think it's bad, because it makes little sense. Explaining to me again what the ending means won't make it be more sensible all of a sudden
Chaos offers choice is no different then evil offers choice. The point of the ending was that the DO offers a choice. If you want to think of it as chaos, that's fine. The question remains - I agree that the DO is causing chaos. This has been repeated in the series. But where does it say that the DO is the source of ALL chaos and where do we read anything about chaos being responsible for people's free willed choice?

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Well, I think we already had this conversation in another thread :P About how the DO doesn't experience time, but he CAN experience different touchings of the pattern, and he can tell them apart.
This is all getting rather sci-fi physics now. Can't remember which thread it was... About how the DO can never win, because for him there is only one battle, because he sees the wheel from the outside? I think you were in that thread too right?

Yeah, that's where a lot of this idea is coming from (that other thread) but I think what I'm saying is compatible with either there only being one last battle as far as the DO is concerned *or* him being able to distinguish between the different last battles, but it being timeless in between.

Although I did just think up a third option, which is that he doesn't remember the other battles because of the timelessness between each one. I mean, you're right, it is getting rather metaphysical at this point. But (just as a quick tangent), it seems odd to think that if the DO does indeed experience each version of the LB anew, that he would carry over memories from the last one. Because how does a non-time-experiencing force carry memories?

Anyway, I don't care about whether or not you think the DO experiences each LB differently or they're all the same. As you said, that convo is in the other thread, and either way it's unimportant to the point I'm making now, which is, apart from the time spanning when the bore is drilled, the DO does *not* experience time. Therefore it's silly to talk of him giving or not giving anything at any point other than when the bore is open.

When the bore is sealed, the DO (or the force he becomes) is still necessary for choice. But he's not giving it. Think about how gravity is necessary for life. With no gravity, stars, planets, etc would never have formed. It's questionable whether anything could exist if gravity didn't exist. And yet, no one talks about gravity giving life. It seems silly to even say such a thing.

 

[MuKen]

Muken - I think we should start by saying what exactly we mean when we say breaking the wheel, because most of your message makes no sense to what I'd call breaking the wheel.
The way I see it, breaking the wheel means no more circular time. That's what it means. A change in the pattern which repeats itself over and over is not breaking the wheel, so far as I am concerned. The DO touches the pattern from outside. His touch isn't a natural part of the turning (because he's not a part of the wheel in any way, which is something I think we can all agree upon). This means that if he stops touching the pattern, the wheel will keep spinning just like before, except without his influence from now on.

Yes it seems like most of the other points stem from our disagreement over what constitutes 'breaking' and/or 'violating' the wheel, so let's settle this before we get to those.

You are saying that the wheel is still intact even though what is repeating has fundamentally changed. That seems to me to be contrary to the very concept that is the wheel. If something completely new is repeating, then how is it the same wheel? That's no different from what the DO wanted to do; get rid of the wheel and make a new one. A wheel is a wheel because where it leads to comes back to where it starts. If suddenly the wheel doesn't lead to where it started, but instead to where some other wheel starts, then the original wheel is gone. Making a new wheel does not change the fact that you got rid of the old one.

What you are proposing is a drastic change. The entire end of the age of legends was was defined by the dragon breaking the world because of the DO, and the end of the current age is again defined by the dragon sealing the DO. Without the DO, the fundamental structure of the 7 ages is completely different. What you propose absolutely means breaking the wheel.

In fact, you couldn't really call the new wheel a 'wheel' either. When someone asks "What was the beginning of this wheel?" the answer will be "When Rand permanently shut away the DO." But for a wheel, the answer should be "There is no beginning, it's a wheel." The very fact that you can say what the beginning was means it is not a wheel.

I understand you accept that it's true... But if I were just a normal reader, with no knowledge of what is said by the authors, I would have no reason to think what Rand saw is true.
Ignorence is a bliss.

Huh? So a reader should by default assume that everything the main character sees is wrong until the author says otherwise? I don't seriously think anybody reads that way. The reader would believe what Rand says unless something told him it was false, not the other way around.

Well, I think we already had this conversation in another thread :P About how the DO doesn't experience time, but he CAN experience different touchings of the pattern, and he can tell them apart.
This is all getting rather sci-fi physics now. Can't remember which thread it was... About how the DO can never win, because for him there is only one battle, because he sees the wheel from the outside? I think you were in that thread too right?

Yes, the other thread was about my theory. But just because we were discussing a theory, does not mean that everything that was said in the thread was also theory. There is no time outside the Pattern, that is fact, stated multiple times in the books. That proves beyond a question that the DO is different when inside the Pattern from the part of the DO that is outside the Pattern. A DO outside the Pattern cannot have an experience like the kind that the DO inside the Pattern who experiences time does, that is a fundamental difference.

 

[Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak]

Note how the Forsaken are, in many ways, avatars for the 7 deadly sins.

Good point! I hadn't thought about it that way before but it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Don al'Gooch]

Except the ending of the book tells us differently. It tells us, along with RJs remark that what Rand saw in the Elayn vision was true, that the pattern is indeed inherently good. If it wasn't then there would also be evil without the DO. If you say without the DO the pattern has no evil in it, one cannot escape the logic that the pattern is inherently good. It's the only explanation I can think of. Otherwise, why would there be no evil without the DO?

I don't see how you get there. The pattern is balance -- good balanced by evil. This is why Rand's t'averen effect had good and bad outcomes, but when the Dark One was touching the pattern too strongly, it shifted over to purely good outcomes (to balance the imbalance introduced by the Dark One). As Moriaine said early in the series and Min said towards the middle --- the Creator is Good. But the Pattern just is. Good balancing Evil in Turn after Turn. D.GOOCH

 

[Don al'Gooch]

Good point! I hadn't thought about it that way before but it makes a lot of sense.

And further --- Semirhage = Cruelty, Messana = Envy/Jealousy (she wanted to be a researcher but didn't measure up), Rhavin = Lust (for Power). Very Catholic (and I say that as a Catholic. ). D.GOOCH

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

If something completely new is repeating, then how is it the same wheel? That's no different from what the DO wanted to do; get rid of the wheel and make a new one.

This is where you and I disagree. It's the same wheel because what changed it was the DO. The way I imagin it is this: you have a wheel. The wheel is, obviously, repeating. Now you have an outside force touching the wheel, creating a new event. If that event stops occuring, that doesn't mean that the wheel has changed. It simply means that the wheel is now devoid of out side effects.
I had a pebble stuck in my tire. Everytime the wheel of my car turned and the pebble hit the road, it made an annoying sound. When I took the pebble out, the noise stopped. It had no effect on the wheel being the same (true story, BTW).

A wheel is a wheel because where it leads to comes back to where it starts. If suddenly the wheel doesn't lead to where it started, but instead to where some other wheel starts, then the original wheel is gone.

A wheel has no start. Nor does it lead anywhere, since it's repeating. If it has no start, and leads nowhere, then your point is void. Also we KNOW things in the wheel can change (thank you again, Fain). So why can some things be changed and others not, and who decides? Is it arbitrary?

What you are proposing is a drastic change. The entire end of the age of legends was was defined by the dragon breaking the world because of the DO, and the end of the current age is again defined by the dragon sealing the DO. Without the DO, the fundamental structure of the 7 ages is completely different. What you propose absolutely means breaking the wheel.

But we said that other things can change. For example, we said the taint can be cleansed by means other then Fain and Shadar Logoth. So why can't the world be broken for some other reason? A zombie apocalyps? An illness that makes channelers crazy? etc. It doesn't matter, the point is that there is no reason the breaking will be caused by one thing.

In fact, you couldn't really call the new wheel a 'wheel' either. When someone asks "What was the beginning of this wheel?" the answer will be "When Rand permanently shut away the DO." But for a wheel, the answer should be "There is no beginning, it's a wheel." The very fact that you can say what the beginning was means it is not a wheel.

That's true for what you're saying as well.

Huh? So a reader should by default assume that everything the main character sees is wrong until the author says otherwise? I don't seriously think anybody reads that way. The reader would believe what Rand says unless something told him it was false, not the other way around.

Yes, and to me there are plenty of reasons to say Rand was wrong, which I introduced in my original theory before BS said what Rand saw was true.

There is no time outside the Pattern, that is fact, stated multiple times in the books. That proves beyond a question that the DO is different when inside the Pattern from the part of the DO that is outside the Pattern.

No, it doesn't. It means he experiences time differently while touching the pattern. For starters, there is no part of the DO that is "inside" the pattern, except when Rand drags him inside. He's always outside. He can touch the pattern, influence it. He's not in it, except at the very end. I agree with you, if that's what you'er saying, that the DO's influence and the DO himself are not the same thing. Is that what you mean?

I don't see how you get there. The pattern is balance -- good balanced by evil. This is why Rand's t'averen effect had good and bad outcomes

Agreed.

but when the Dark One was touching the pattern too strongly, it shifted over to purely good outcomes (to balance the imbalance introduced by the Dark One). As Moriaine said early in the series and Min said towards the middle --- the Creator is Good. But the Pattern just is. Good balancing Evil in Turn after Turn.

Agreed again... So you agree with me that the pattern SHOULD be able to insert evil into itself if the DO isn't there, just like it uses Rand to insert good when he's there too much. The pattern is balance. The ending tells us basically that the pattern is not balance. It's good, and it requires the DO in order to insert evil into it. That's the only explanation I can think of that would explain the pattern having no evil without the DO. It's supposed to be balanced, no matter what.