*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Aulrick Vendour]

MuKen - I'm not answering it because I already have, many times. It was foreshadowed, then Rand declared his intention out loud. It would give a reason why this story was told and not any other turning of the wheel which is exactly the same. It would have indeed made it THE last battle, instead of just ANOTHER battle. Pick one, what does it matter?

 

[MuKen]

MuKen - I'm not answering it because I already have, many times. It was foreshadowed, then Rand declared his intention out loud.

Can you show me where? Each time, you say "it was foreshadowed a lot", and I don't see any specific examples. The ones you did give, as I said in my last post, were entirely out of book.

It would give a reason why this story was told and not any other turning of the wheel which is exactly the same. It would have indeed made it THE last battle, instead of just ANOTHER battle. Pick one, what does it matter?

What exactly is wrong with that? If an interesting story repeats itself an infinite number of times, what exactly is wrong with picking one and telling it?

Are you saying that the concept of the Wheel itself is unworkable as the basis for a story, or are you saying that if it is truly a wheel, the only proper thing to do is not tell the story at all since all turnings are similar? Because I can't agree with either of those assertions.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

I'm saying that when you put so much foreshadowing of things that are supposedly unique to this turning, I would have expected there to be something different. Hence why I think the ending is anticlimatic. We had "The" last battle. We had Fain, which is not only special by itself, but it means the whole concept of the taint etc. is unique, since no Fain means no cleansing of Saidin, and so on and so forth.
We were led to a climax in which something was supposed to be different, and it turns out nothing was. That's just anti climatic, to me at least.
But again, this is because my expectations were high due to how I see things in the rest of the books.

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

I think the ending was pretty much the only way it could go. It's something I used to complain about with the original Star Wars trilogy. Bringing balance isn't eliminating all the bad. That's hardly a balance. I'm not sure how I felt about the epilogue. The whole riding off into the sunset while everyone thought he was dead, except the three bonded to him and for some reason Cadsuane... but in terms of the Dark One, locking him up using his own essence was a pretty good end to him as far as I'm concerned. And I like that the DO actually showed Rand exactly how terrible the world would be like without any evil in it, because that's not something you often see in fantasy worlds. Usually it's just a clear cut, eliminate the baddies once and for all.

(I also tried to catch up on the current debate going on but I'm at work, and ain't no body got that kind of time :P)

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Yeah... We're WAAAAY past that point in the conversation.
However, I'll make it clear that the part with Moridin and the trap of Calandor, using the TP and all, that was great. Someone (can't remember who) in these forums actually predicted that the "three shall become one" prophecy is actually about the 3 powers being used. I thought he'd be wrong, but he was right, and it was done BEAUTIFULLY! I also don't mind the DO being locked again, though I'd rather see him dead. It's WHY he needed to be locked again that bothers me, for all the reasons I've mentioned. Sure, I'd rather have seen him die, as I think that would have been the right thing to do both storytelling wise AND world wise AND foreshadowing wise, but I can live without it. Can't really accept the reason though. If you want to go against everything you've written so far, at least bring us a good reason, not this choice crap which has nothing to do with the rest of the series.

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

I don't think it goes against EVERYTHING that was written. Rand planned to break the seals and reforge them anew longer than he planned to actually kill the DO, and like I said, eliminating ALL that is evil would leave a pretty messed up world. The hero always kills the bad guy, I felt this new take was quite refreshing. Plus, with three sequel books planned, there may have originally been more to that.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Yeah...
I'm not talking about Rand's plans, I'm talking about the DO being the source of "ALL that is evil." That's the part I find lacking.

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

Hm, well I did read some of the debate earlier, and maybe you're right. Being raised Christian I always thought of it as the Creator vs the Devil, so I just kind of read it that way all along. I could see how someone might not think of it in the same terms though. I almost want to get all philosophical about it now haha.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

This is the thread for it, though I'm not sure how much debate can be done about philosophical things like that

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

BRING IT ON!

This thread is now about [strike]arguing[/strike] discussing any and all things totally opinion-based and irrelephant to anything whatsoever.


(yes I said irrelephant. What are you going to do about it?)

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

Ahahaha I don't mean THAT kind of philosophy. That's never a good idea :P Just the difference in opinions about the Dark One being basis of all evil versus the Dark One being an added evil to a world already inflicted with evil. Which I suppose is what your debate was really about now that I've actually read through it.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Man I can't believe you actually read through all that. I mean, we pretty much wrote dissertations there. Mad props. But yes, that particular question has been settled. Though I suppose we could continue to discuss the implications of either actuality.

Also, you're the (cosplay) artist formerly known as toronto mat cauthon, right?

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

Yes! I am indeed. And I think I might use that title for something. It is pretty awesome haha

And nahh let's keep this progressive. I'm interested to know what other people thought of Cadsuane somehow knowing Rand was alive though

 

[Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak]

Ok, I've just read (ok, skimmed) through all the posts on here and I have to admit that I was hoping to see more discussion of Nakomi. A few people mentioned her on here a while back but there wasn't all that much discussion. I keep wondering if she is the same person that Rand saw, and regardless of that, who exactly she is (or what she represents). Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I missed my chance to ask Brandon about it at the book signing last night.

 

[Madrin Al'Carthon]

Brandon isn't allowed to talk about Nakomi as far as I know :P I think she's always supposed to be a mystery. I tend to lean towards the theory that she is an agent of the Creator myself, although that does somewhat conflict with some personal theories regarding the Dragon. I've seen some say she's the Creator his/her self, but I think that's pretty unlikely haha

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Well, you guys are totally allowed to make new threads for subjects not covered in this one. I think this one was specifically about the ending and Rand's choice.

Not that it's bad to post in here. Just, you know, this thread's kind of a monster already.

But yes, Brandon is not allowed to talk about her, but my personal leaning is also that she's some sort of avatar of the creator.

 

[MuKen]

I'm saying that when you put so much foreshadowing of things that are supposedly unique to this turning, I would have expected there to be something different.

At the risk of sounding repetitive, what foreshadowing? I have still only seen you mention of Fain being unique, and some various fan theories. Very little if anything from the books themselves. RJ said Fain was unique to a fan, he didn't write it in the books. You can't say an ending doesn't fit the rest of the series based on conversations that happen outside the books. There's a BIG difference between what subtle clues and ideologies an author carefully plans out and layers into his writing, and what he says on the spur of the moment when cornered by a fan.

I'm not saying that he mispoke and Fain is not actually unique. But I am saying he didn't mean that to be a big deal that you can base the whole direction of the books on. It was a fan who placed emphasis on this point by asking it, not the author.

But again, this is because my expectations were high due to how I see things in the rest of the books.

I don't think it's a matter of them being 'high', but rather them being based on a lot of building on theories done in parallel to reading the series, and moving and reinforcing the emphasis on things that were not what the author intended to be emphasized. I get it, I do the same thing, we all do. That's a sign that the author made an engaging story. But at the end of the day, when the theories you built yourself up to believe in over years turn out to be wrong, you need to be able to step back and judge the ending that was given without that lens in place, or you'll never be satisfied with it.

You put a lot of emphasis on Fain's story, and built that up to a powerful belief that this means a certain thing. Other people put their emphasis on other things (all of which have already been discussed). I'm not saying either of us was right or wrong to do so at the time, that's the fun of theorizing. But when what you speculated is wrong, you have to accept that you were never meant to emphasize those particular points, that wasn't what the story was building to.

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

I am amused that the same people are having the same argument ten pages after I stopped following this thread.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

I am amused that the same people are having the same argument ten pages after I stopped following this thread.

We're nothing if not persistent, Ninya Sedai.

 

[Ealandrelle Melyma]

Ok, I've just read (ok, skimmed) through all the posts on here and I have to admit that I was hoping to see more discussion of Nakomi. A few people mentioned her on here a while back but there wasn't all that much discussion. I keep wondering if she is the same person that Rand saw, and regardless of that, who exactly she is (or what she represents). Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I missed my chance to ask Brandon about it at the book signing last night.

If I remember rightly, there is an entire thread devoted to Nakomi. Just because it's not in here, doesn't mean it's not being discussed