*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Aulrick Vendour]

MuKen - My problem is that there was NO foreshadowing about the so called "choice." Also it's not only the lack of foreshadowing that bothers me, like I've said before. It's several things.
The ending just seemed to be so... disconnected... from the rest of the series. The idea of choice was never a theme in this series anymore then other books. And no, the fact that people chose between being darkfriends or not isn't a foreshadowing of choice. Every series have people making choices all the time. Nor is "balance" a foreshadowing, since like you pointed out, it was just stated out that things need balance.

In my opinion, the end was disconnected from the rest of the series. Everything that happened in the series was irrelevent to the ending. There was nothing I can point to and say "if that wouldn't have happened, the ending couldn't have been as it was." Not a single thing. The series could have been something completely different, and the end remain just the same.
It's a nightmarish combination of WoT and The Matrix - Revolution and Mass Effect 3's endings.
Horrible.

 

[MuKen]

I think the ending was as connected to the series as it could be. The ending wasn't just about choice, it was about balance. And whether or not you want to call it foreshadowing, balance definitely IS a common theme of the series. So an ending that stresses the importance of balance seems perfect. That, and the eternity and continuity of the Wheel. The series is called the Wheel of Time, and every single book starts by saying there are no beginnings or endings. So an ending that shows how everything will eventually connect back to the next turning of the Wheel seems, again, very connected to the themes of the series.

How would your desired outcome, that the DO be killed, be more connected than this? We now would not have the connection to balance, or the eternity of the Wheel. In return, what other theme would it connect to? If anything, it seems to me like that would be far less connected to anything.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

First of all, it is not fully explained why the DO is needed for balance, which is one of my bigest problems, and the reason I thought of a theory to try and explain the ending.

Also, as I've said, the whole Fain thing showed us that time isn't circular as we thought it was. If one thing can change, so can others. Further more, again, if things were meant to remain the same, don't say they're going to change, give every forshadowing possible to show it's not, they say "Oops, it is," based on something as stupid as "the DO gives people choice, though it was never mentioned at all, we were told otherwise, and there was no foreshadowing."

Yeah no offense guys. When this was a theory, it was interesting. Now it's just disappointing and boring.
I find the ending lacking and annoying. I doubt anyone here can srsly tell me why it's not, since it clearly is, unless there's some huge undisclosed foreshadowing about choice in the series (and again, choosing to be a darkfriend is NOT foreshadowing that the DO is needed for a choice between good and evil) which I am unaware of.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

First of all, it is not fully explained why the DO is needed for balance, which is one of my bigest problems, and the reason I thought of a theory to try and explain the ending.

Because he is evil (noun). Without the concept of evil, you can't do evil things. You can't steal, lie, cheat, kill, etc, because the concept doesn't exist. If this isn't something you're willing to accept, we're not going to get anywhere in this conversation, but it's very basic and not unique to WoT.

No concept of something means no choice to do something that entails that concept. The concept of evil has to exist so that when people decide NOT to kill someone and take all their belongings, that choice is meaningful. In a world where there is no concept of theft or murder, not killing or stealing means nothing. If you're not given a choice, then being good is meaningless. THAT is the point.

Balance entails having two sides -- evil (the DO) balances good (which is, presumably, the creator).

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Which brings us back to the foreshadowing and against things we've been told point.
Like I've said, makes no sense, against things we've been told, and not foreshadowed at all.

 

[MuKen]

First of all, it is not fully explained why the DO is needed for balance, which is one of my bigest problems, and the reason I thought of a theory to try and explain the ending.

It's not some artificial addon whose need has to be justified. From the beginning of the series we have known there is the creator and the dark one, and they form a duality. There's no way you read this series, and didn't think "ok, the creator is opposite the dark one". So it's pretty natural to think that since every other duality in the series fits into the theme of balance, this one will end up being the same.

Also, as I've said, the whole Fain thing showed us that time isn't circular as we thought it was. If one thing can change, so can others.

Fain didn't have to show us that, we've known from the get go that every turning is different in the details. Fain's just another detail that is different this time around, why this focus on him? It doesn't change the fact that the overall flow of things looks the same, we've been told this by RJ multiply over the last two decades, it should hardly come as a surprise.

Further more, again, if things were meant to remain the same, don't say they're going to change, give every forshadowing possible to show it's not, they say "Oops, it is," based on something as stupid as "the DO gives people choice, though it was never mentioned at all, we were told otherwise, and there was no foreshadowing."

And again, I ask what this "every foreshadowing possible" about things not being the same is? Rand thinking outright "I'm gonna kill the DO" is not foreshadowing at all, there was nothing subtle. If anything, that is precisely what connects us to this ending. If they DIDN'T do that, then THAT would have made this ending seem to come out of nowhere. As in "what? I didn't even know Rand was thinking about killing the DO!"

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

It's not some artificial addon whose need has to be justified. From the beginning of the series we have known there is the creator and the dark one, and they form a duality. There's no way you read this series, and didn't think "ok, the creator is opposite the dark one". So it's pretty natural to think that since every other duality in the series fits into the theme of balance, this one will end up being the same.

Sure, but I never thought "The Creator is the noun 'good' and is responsible for the choice of good." I thought of him as who created the universe, not as someone without whom people could do no good.

Fain didn't have to show us that, we've known from the get go that every turning is different in the details. Fain's just another detail that is different this time around, why this focus on him? It doesn't change the fact that the overall flow of things looks the same, we've been told this by RJ multiply over the last two decades, it should hardly come as a surprise.

Actually, Fain was very unique in the turning of the wheel, at least so far as I understand. He represented a different type of evil, which can battle that of the DO as evil, not as good. To the point which he could kill the DO's evil. Things like the taint, the wound at Rand's side, etc.

And again, I ask what this "every foreshadowing possible" about things not being the same is? Rand thinking outright "I'm gonna kill the DO" is not foreshadowing at all, there was nothing subtle.

He also said he's going to remove the taint from Saidin. There was still foreshadowing about how he's gonna do it.

If anything, that is precisely what connects us to this ending. If they DIDN'T do that, then THAT would have made this ending seem to come out of nowhere. As in "what? I didn't even know Rand was thinking about killing the DO!"

Yeah... No. What I'm talking about is the choice, not the not killing the DO part. The idea that the DO is a noun, and is therefor responsible for people's ability to do evil things, was never once mentioned. We were told he can't touch the pattern while sealed away, and were led to believe that meant he has no effect on the pattern. There was no reason at all to think that the DO has any influence other then things described, etc.
Furthermore, the BWB told us people did evil without the DO's influence, that he just enhances evil. This is indeed a point of view, not fact, but again, there was no foreshadowing to suggest otherwise.

In other words - no foreshadowing at all, against things we WERE told and had no reason to question, and all the other reasons I said.

It's just a bad ending. That's all.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

But Aulrick, if there was no foreshadowing, why do the rest of us see this as a completely sensical and logical ending?

But ok, here:

Being 13x13'd takes away your ability to choose to do good -- you become an automaton for evil. We've seen balance everywhere. So, if you can turn someone to the dark, perhaps there's a way for people to be "turned" to the light. Hmm.

We're told the creator "seals away" the dark one. Why would he do that without a reason? Either the DO is too powerful for even the creator to destroy (and therefore how could a mortal soul every hope to) or the DO serves some necessary purpose in creation. Hmmm again.

There are "thin spots" in the pattern, and through one of these, Aes Sedai in the AoL are able to sense the true power, which is (the essence of? part of? unclear exactly on the wording here) the DO. So even when he is sealed away, his presence can be felt. So, this prison isn't DO-tight -- it's a bit leaky.

But what I think the absolute biggest foreshadowing (so big it might even be fiveshadowing) is that we know that the bore eventually has to be sealed good as new, because when the next 2nd age comes back around, it has to be whole so the bore is drilled again. Everything repeats with minor changes -- that's the nature of the world. So maybe, just maybe, the story we're reading is about the resealing of the bore good-as-new (which makes it extraordinary, EVEN IF it's happened before).

As for being told this is actually the last Last Battle, well, the only person I can remember saying that is Ishmael (or at least, he said it first). A) the guy is nutso. Incredibly smart and well studied? Absolutely. But also bat-crap crazy. But also, we learn at the end that for him, he WANTED it to be the last Last Battle. He wanted the escape that would have come with pure destruction and the DO winning. And so instead of taking him literally, perhaps his claim should be read as a turn of events that he wanted to come about and worked very hard at making it happen. AND. AND. If not for the flaw in callendor, it absolutely WOULD have happened (well, maybe not absolutely. I supposed it depends on how much you can hold the DO to his word.).

So anyway, I'm just not buying it. I still don't see how the series could have ended any other way. Evil (noun) problem aside, to kill the DO would break the wheel as surely as letting him win would have, because the whole damn world is based on repetition.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

But Aulrick, if there was no foreshadowing, why do the rest of us see this as a completely sensical and logical ending?

Something I've been asking myself over and over.

Being 13x13'd takes away your ability to choose to do good -- you become an automaton for evil. We've seen balance everywhere. So, if you can turn someone to the dark, perhaps there's a way for people to be "turned" to the light. Hmm.

Not sure what the "Hmm"'s for, but (A) this just shows you that the DO TAKES choice, not grants it, and (B) maybe there is a way to restore people turned by 13, but we don't know of it, nor is that in any way relevent.
I'm (again) gonna say that I'm not arguing about the balance issue. I'm arguing that the choice part has nothing to do with it. I'll talk more on that next.

We're told the creator "seals away" the dark one. Why would he do that without a reason? Either the DO is too powerful for even the creator to destroy (and therefore how could a mortal soul every hope to) or the DO serves some necessary purpose in creation. Hmmm again.

Ok. I'll start simple: the DO and Creator are not, in any way, opposites. If they were equal but opposite, the creator wouldn't have created him, be able to lock him or anything else. The fact that the creator CAN lock the DO is more then enough proof that there is no balance between them.


Now, a reason to create him? Sure. If he indeed created him. I gave a very simple alternate theory: what if the DO was the result of the choice, and not it's creator? Which means the Creator sealed him off the moment it was created by humans, not by the creator. Since then we've been told that the DO is indeed the source of the choice by BS. For all the reasons I've said before in this thread, that makes no sense.
As for the Creator's reasons: that's all theory and speculation, not foreshadow. maybe he placed him not to keep balance, but to take the pattern OUT of balance. After all, the DO's direct influence on the pattern is destroying balance, not keeping it. it changes the world, makes people do evil, etc. Rand explains this nicely in AMoL. he explains how the DO destroys balance, and the pattern is using Taveren, especially Rand, to restore balance. That's how he explains all the changes around himself all the time - the DO takes things out of balance, and the pattern, being balanced as it is, needs to correct everything, using Taveren.

There are "thin spots" in the pattern, and through one of these, Aes Sedai in the AoL are able to sense the true power, which is (the essence of? part of? unclear exactly on the wording here) the DO. So even when he is sealed away, his presence can be felt. So, this prison isn't DO-tight -- it's a bit leaky.

Not sure "leaky" is the word I'd use to describe it.
Lets say we have a huge wall, and there's a light source on the other side. The light makes a thiner part of the wall warm enough so that people on the other side feel a little heat. So they know there is a source of heat on the other side. Does this mean this source has any influence on the people's side of the wall? No. They know it's there, since they can feel the wall is a little hot at some place. That's about it. The light, which is the source, doesn't illuminate things for the people.
This is how I thought of it, because that's what we were led to believe in the books, the BWB, etc. Now in AMoL they say it's different. My problem isn't that it's different, but that we had no way of knowing it was different, meaning there was no foreshadowing, meaning the ending was cut off from the rest of the series in that it introduced new information that we had no way to know and contradicts things we already knew.

But what I think the absolute biggest foreshadowing (so big it might even be fiveshadowing) is that we know that the bore eventually has to be sealed good as new, because when the next 2nd age comes back around, it has to be whole so the bore is drilled again. Everything repeats with minor changes -- that's the nature of the world. So maybe, just maybe, the story we're reading is about the resealing of the bore good-as-new (which makes it extraordinary, EVEN IF it's happened before).

And again, that's FINE with me... Except it's not foreshadowing. My problem isn't the fact that things are the way they are, it's that we were told differently, foreshadowed differently, and the characters said they wanted to change things... And in the end, nothing really happened. That's an anti climax. No, it doesn't make it extraordinary, it makes it just as it was at the begining, with no change. Which means the whole series was needless.

As for being told this is actually the last Last Battle, well, the only person I can remember saying that is Ishmael (or at least, he said it first).

Actually I was talking about this being called THE last battle by varient prophecies. But this is a minor point to me.

So anyway, I'm just not buying it. I still don't see how the series could have ended any other way. Evil (noun) problem aside, to kill the DO would break the wheel as surely as letting him win would have, because the whole damn world is based on repetition.

You can read various theories in the book 13 forums about how people thought it would end. Including such things as the breaking of the wheel, making time linear, etc.
But I also disagree with your premiss.
Let's agree that the DO is outside the pattern. That we've been told several times, and it was described as such in AMoL, and I think it's something we can both agree on.
Now, People have a choice, right? But let's look at the DO's actions - he changes the pattern when he touches it, thus making it unbalanced, and Rand brings it back to balance. That's what's described in AMoL. The 13 method takes away people's choice and forces them to the shadow. Maybe there is a way to turn them back, that is to give them back the choice, but that's still restoring balance that was taken by the DO. There for, I assume that the DO is a force outside the pattern, not part of it. Therefor killing him would have restored balance to the pattern, and let it spin without his influence, as it was meant to, with people having their normal choice.
So when suddenly I'm told the DO is what GIVES choice, when the books describe the complete opposite - that makes no sense to me. The DO takes things out of balance and takes away people's choice, or at least limits them (as was discussed here before). Saying he is now responsible for people having a choice in the first place is, IMHO, bullshit. It makes no sense and is opposite of what we know from the series, in which he only limited or taken people's choice by force.

In conclusion:
13 method is not a means to show balance. It takes people out of the balance. IF (and we don't know for sure) there's a way to balance them back, it's to bring them back to balanced choice. Or are you saying there is a way to FORCE people to be good instead of evil?

The Creator's reasons to seal the DO are a theory. He's the creator? Why not give people a choice WITHOUT the DO? Why create an embodiment of evil? And if you decide to do this, why create a way to bore to where he is? This is all theory and speculation. Your guess is as good as mine.

And so on.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

You can read various theories in the book 13 forums about how people thought it would end. Including such things as the breaking of the wheel, making time linear, etc.
But I also disagree with your premiss.
Let's agree that the DO is outside the pattern. That we've been told several times, and it was described as such in AMoL, and I think it's something we can both agree on.
Now, People have a choice, right? But let's look at the DO's actions - he changes the pattern when he touches it, thus making it unbalanced, and Rand brings it back to balance. That's what's described in AMoL. The 13 method takes away people's choice and forces them to the shadow. Maybe there is a way to turn them back, that is to give them back the choice, but that's still restoring balance that was taken by the DO. There for, I assume that the DO is a force outside the pattern, not part of it. Therefor killing him would have restored balance to the pattern, and let it spin without his influence, as it was meant to, with people having their normal choice.
So when suddenly I'm told the DO is what GIVES choice, when the books describe the complete opposite - that makes no sense to me. The DO takes things out of balance and takes away people's choice, or at least limits them (as was discussed here before). Saying he is now responsible for people having a choice in the first place is, IMHO, bullshit. It makes no sense and is opposite of what we know from the series, in which he only limited or taken people's choice by force.

In conclusion:
13 method is not a means to show balance. It takes people out of the balance. IF (and we don't know for sure) there's a way to balance them back, it's to bring them back to balanced choice. Or are you saying there is a way to FORCE people to be good instead of evil?

The Creator's reasons to seal the DO are a theory. He's the creator? Why not give people a choice WITHOUT the DO? Why create an embodiment of evil? And if you decide to do this, why create a way to bore to where he is? This is all theory and speculation. Your guess is as good as mine.

And so on.

Just going to copy/paste this from what I said earlier:

The way I've started to think about it, when the DO is able to touch the pattern (late AoL through end of 3rd age) he becomes personified. Because he now experiences time, it's easier to think of him as a person (though he is still not in the least human, but he has intentions, desires, can carry out actions and give orders and communicate, etc). This is Evil (noun) personified. When he's sealed away from the pattern, and no longer experiences time he's just Evil (noun). You can't be personified in any meaningful sense of the word if you don't experience time, but you can still be *something* -- a force, perhaps -- that exists and affects humanity. Timeless DO is more like gravity, where pattern-touching DO is more like how we traditionally picture the devil. (These are loose analogies, so please don't try to take them literally.)

So yes, the DO being able to touch the pattern does indeed destroy balance. What's needed for balance is the DO sealed away in his prison. And with the wall/light/heat example you gave, the fact remains that the heat CAN be felt on the other side, even if it can't, say, cook a hamburger there.

But again, I think thinking about the DO when he's sealed away in the same way as he's presented to us when he's not is a big mistake. The DO has to be fundamentally different in those two states. In one state he can experience time and therefore have intentional actions. In another he does not, and therefore cannot. So he's not giving or taking away choices when he's sealed up, because he's not really an he, or even an it. When sealed up, the DO is merely a concept -- his existence is just the concept of evil. At this point, talking about the DO giving choice makes no sense, though we can still say he (it) is necessary for choice, much like we wouldn't say gravity gives us falling, but it's necessary for falling.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Interesting.
So what you're saying is that there is evil in the world, and the pattern is sealed from it. Once a hole is made, the evil seeps through like water through a well, not like someone intentionally doing it. But once water seep into the pattern, it becomes personified as a side effect of feeling time, and becomes the DO.

I guess my first question is what do you base this on? It's an interesting theory, but I can't at all see it as anything more then that since it's not based on any information given in the series. We never had any reason to believe the DO is different while touching the pattern.
I'd also like to point out that the DO's consciousness seem to include it's time sealed away.

And on a final note - while it's an interesting theory, I'm not sure how it's conected to my concerns with the ending.

BTW - do you agree with me that, at least on the surface, the DO seems to take choice and unbalance the pattern throughout the series, and therefor (again, on the surface) it seems a little far fetched to suddenly show at the last minute that he's actually giving choice and is part of the balance?

 

[MuKen]

Sure, but I never thought "The Creator is the noun 'good' and is responsible for the choice of good." I thought of him as who created the universe, not as someone without whom people could do no good.

You're getting far too caught up in making this about the choice aspect. The central theme of the series is balance, it'd be pretty tough to say anything else is more central to the series. Realizing that killing the DO is wrong is the best ending for a series about balance, the ending you espouse makes far less sense in this, and several other, contexts.

In general it is easy to focus a conversation on the negatives of something else instead of saying what is good about the alternatives. What makes what you want such a better ending? I've already cited several reasons it's even less connected to the rest of the series than the one we did get. Instead of saying why this ending is so unconnected and so unforeshadowed, I'd like to hear why you think killing the DO is better connected or foreshadowed?

Actually, Fain was very unique in the turning of the wheel, at least so far as I understand. He represented a different type of evil, which can battle that of the DO as evil, not as good. To the point which he could kill the DO's evil. Things like the taint, the wound at Rand's side, etc.

Yes, very unique. There are tons of things in every cycle that are very unique, it was never indicated there wouldn't be. Details can be unique, the uniqueness of a thing is a completely orthogonal concept to what we are discussing.

He also said he's going to remove the taint from Saidin. There was still foreshadowing about how he's gonna do it.

Dodging the question. What was the foreshadowing you mention for the ending you wanted?

The way I've started to think about it, when the DO is able to touch the pattern (late AoL through end of 3rd age) he becomes personified. Because he now experiences time, it's easier to think of him as a person (though he is still not in the least human, but he has intentions, desires, can carry out actions and give orders and communicate, etc). This is Evil (noun) personified. When he's sealed away from the pattern, and no longer experiences time he's just Evil (noun). You can't be personified in any meaningful sense of the word if you don't experience time, but you can still be *something* -- a force, perhaps -- that exists and affects humanity. Timeless DO is more like gravity, where pattern-touching DO is more like how we traditionally picture the devil. (These are loose analogies, so please don't try to take them literally.)

Absolutely agree with this. It doesn't need direct quotes to "prove" it, it's the only thing that logically makes sense. Outside the Pattern, there is no time, and without time you cannot have personifications as we know them. The character we've been seeing in the DO simply cannot exist outside of the Pattern.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

That's exactly my problem. The ending, instead of focusing on balance, which I'd understand, focused on the choice.
This is a problem for me because the idea that the DO is evil incarnate and the creator is good incarnate is a new one. We never had a foreshadowing about the DO being evil as a concept, and that the concept would be gone without him.

I'll answer the rest when I'm near my computer and not writing from my iPhone.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

OK
Am next to my computer now.
I'll start by saying that there was a lot of foreshadowing for "my" ending, as well as many other theories on the end. There were many theories on how the series will end. Non of them had to do with the DO as a balancer that gives choice. And here why: according to this ending, the DO is a bringer of balance. Without it, there is no balance between good and evil. This, to me at least, makes no sense. The reason is that throughout the series, the DO was an element that disturbed balance. This is even described rather nicely in AMoL - The DO makes the pattern lose it's balance, and the pattern is using Rand, as a Taveren, to restore balance. Had the DO NOT intervened, there would be no reason to restore balance, and Rand would not have been needed.
This is true all over the place. For example, I've heard people say that the TP balances the OP, because one is evil and one is good. That's not true. The OP isn't "good" at all, it's just a tool. That tool can be used for good or evil, as shown by any black sister or turned asheman or any other dark channeler. It is also balanced by itself, between men and women. In this sense, the TP in fact disturbs the balance, not adding to it.
Now, this is conceptually contradictory to me. Not that it's "impossible." I understand that it can be possible that the DO is disturbing the balance in the pattern, but is needed for balance between evil and good. I just see it as bad writing, exactly because it wasn't foreshadowed. Everything in the series told us that the DO disturbs balance... Except the ending. The ending suddenly tells us "Oh, the DO, that takes everything out of balance? Yeah, he's actually needed for the balance... And for choice... Despite the fact that he limits people's choices or takes them away completely if turned to the dark..."

This concept I simply cannot accept. Not that it's impossible, it just goes against everything we've learned about the DO in the series, and is therefor, in my eye, simply bad writing.

About things being unique each cycle - I dunno about that. We were never told there are things unique in every cycle either. I think Axis brought RJ's response to a question about Fain, and to me it sounded like it's something special, not just "another" special something. While I agree we have no way of knowing one way or the other, if time is a circle that never stops, that means nothing is "special." Everything happened before and will happen again. Maybe no each repeating cycle, but after some cycles it'll return again. FJ's response to Fain seems to indicate he is not like that. Which, again, is a big foreshadowing all on it's own, but that's besides the point.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Just responding as I read.

I'll start by saying that there was a lot of foreshadowing for "my" ending, as well as many other theories on the end. There were many theories on how the series will end. Non of them had to do with the DO as a balancer that gives choice. And here why: according to this ending, the DO is a bringer of balance. Without it, there is no balance between good and evil. This, to me at least, makes no sense. The reason is that throughout the series, the DO was an element that disturbed balance. This is even described rather nicely in AMoL - The DO makes the pattern lose it's balance, and the pattern is using Rand, as a Taveren, to restore balance. Had the DO NOT intervened, there would be no reason to restore balance, and Rand would not have been needed.
This is true all over the place.

So here, I feel like there are two different ideas you're mixing up, maybe.

First, I 100% agree that the DO being able to touch the pattern ruined balance. You are right in saying that the pattern spits out the dragon to restore balance, and in this case it was the DO causing the disruption of that balance. But the reason for this is the DO is not supposed to touch the pattern. His mere existence is what allows for choice (and balance). Too much of him (touching the pattern) is bad just as his non-existence would be bad (though in very different ways).

Also, we're not saying the DO is the bringer of balance. If anyone has that "title" it would be Rand. The only thing the DO brings is hate, discord, evil, etc. But the existence of those things is necessary for humanity to remain, well, human. Without strife we'd never try to get better. Without the ability to choose evil, our good actions would be meaningless. So while we can all agree that the DO is bad, bad, bad, he's also necessary for the world.

For example, I've heard people say that the TP balances the OP, because one is evil and one is good. That's not true. The OP isn't "good" at all, it's just a tool. That tool can be used for good or evil, as shown by any black sister or turned asheman or any other dark channeler. It is also balanced by itself, between men and women. In this sense, the TP in fact disturbs the balance, not adding to it.

I agree with you that the OP isn't good or bad. But I disagree with you that the TP is bad. One thing that struck me while I was reading the BWB is the way things are named. So, you have the True Source (which, loosely defined, is the pattern) from which the One Power comes. Then you have the True Power, which comes from the Dark One. So, the DO is the source of the TP, just like the pattern/true source is the source of the OP -- but I don't know that the DO being the source of the TP necessarily makes the TP evil. Perhaps there isn't true, symmetrical balance, given the differences between the TP and OP and so on, but there is a similarity there.

Furthermore, one thing I learned recently while designing a home brew D&D campaign -- not everything in the world has to fit in to nice, neat little bundles. Because then, it becomes TOO neat and starts to seem less real (well, for a fantasy world with monsters and magic and the like).

So yes, for true balance/symmetry, maybe we should have had a power from the creator which is good and one from the DO which is bad and everything would be nice and neat. But this is the way RJ did it, and just because it doesn't fit perfectly in the balance box doesn't mean the whole theory makes no sense.

Everything in the series told us that the DO disturbs balance... Except the ending. The ending suddenly tells us "Oh, the DO, that takes everything out of balance? Yeah, he's actually needed for the balance... And for choice... Despite the fact that he limits people's choices or takes them away completely if turned to the dark..."

Not quite. Everything told us that the DO unbound, free to touch the world destroys balance. The only glimpses of a world in which the DO is bound that we get until the last book are of the AoL, where everything was rather nice and peachy and calm until the bore was drilled.

I mean, you're right, the picture being painted for us is DO sows chaos and destruction upon everything he touches. Key word there: touches.

About things being unique each cycle - I dunno about that. We were never told there are things unique in every cycle either. I think Axis brought RJ's response to a question about Fain, and to me it sounded like it's something special, not just "another" special something. While I agree we have no way of knowing one way or the other, if time is a circle that never stops, that means nothing is "special." Everything happened before and will happen again. Maybe no each repeating cycle, but after some cycles it'll return again. FJ's response to Fain seems to indicate he is not like that. Which, again, is a big foreshadowing all on it's own, but that's besides the point.

This, I think it's just something you have to be dissatisfied with. There are a few ways to look at it, though.

First, what Brandon Sanderson said about it (what I mentioned earlier, about RJ's notes and there not being enough time). He did expound on it a bit further by saying that he (Brandon) wasn't too upset by Fain's ending, though, because he viewed Fain as a rat, a nobody who always put way more importance on himself and his actions than was deserved, and that the characters put too much importance on his actions as well. Now, I believe this was Brandon-the-WoT-fan and not Brandon-the-author talking here, so take that as you will.

Another way to look at it, which I think was mentioned on these boards somewhere, is that Fain couldn't have had a very important role, because of the very fact that he is unique. If every turning of the Wheel is more or less the same, with some minor changes every time, then a major change like Fain just couldn't happen. The pattern would do something (like... pop out 3 strong ta'veren at once?) to ensure that Fain's presence didn't change things too much.

But, for what it's worth, I agree with your interpretation of Fain's uniqueness, in that he wasn't just another minor blip in the pattern. Nothing like him had ever come about before.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

First, I 100% agree that the DO being able to touch the pattern ruined balance. You are right in saying that the pattern spits out the dragon to restore balance, and in this case it was the DO causing the disruption of that balance. But the reason for this is the DO is not supposed to touch the pattern. His mere existence is what allows for choice (and balance). Too much of him (touching the pattern) is bad just as his non-existence would be bad (though in very different ways).

Except, like I said, that would make no sense. If he's not supposed to touch the pattern, why allow a prison that can be breached? If we accept that it was created by the Creator, why create something so flawed? Why put an embodiment of evil at all? Why not allow choice without the DO? Maybe it's because I'm Jewish. In Judaism there is no "god and satan" type of thing. There's only god, and he's not good nor evil, he's just there, and people have the choice regardless of anything. If the creator wanted the DO to touch the pattern, why does he? This makes no sense. So now we're to start theorizing that maybe it's a test or whatever? Possibly, but again, at surface level, it makes little sense.

But I take it you agree with me that, as far as the series is concerned, the DO disturbs balance and limits choice, not giving it? Let's say it this way - if we ask someone who's read all 14 books, but stopped after Rand's explanation of him balancing the DO's influence in AMoL, do you think anyone can understand that the DO is, in fact, required for choice? The answer is no, because there was no foreshadowing and the whole series told us differently.
Again, my problem isn't that the ending is IMPOSSIBLE. I understand how it can be. I'm just saying it's detached from the rest of the series, and therefor, IMHO, simply written very badly.

Without the ability to choose evil, our good actions would be meaningless. So while we can all agree that the DO is bad, bad, bad, he's also necessary for the world.

Yeah, I understand what the ending meant. I'm just saying it's stupid.

I don't know that the DO being the source of the TP necessarily makes the TP evil.

Semantics. You understood my meaning.

Furthermore, one thing I learned recently while designing a home brew D&D campaign -- not everything in the world has to fit in to nice, neat little bundles. Because then, it becomes TOO neat and starts to seem less real (well, for a fantasy world with monsters and magic and the like).

I play D&D since the 8th grade, so it's... 15 years now, more or less. And I have no idea what you meant by that. So far as I am concerned, the ending RJ wrote makes his world seem far less real, at least to me.

So yes, for true balance/symmetry, maybe we should have had a power from the creator which is good and one from the DO which is bad and everything would be nice and neat. But this is the way RJ did it, and just because it doesn't fit perfectly in the balance box doesn't mean the whole theory makes no sense.

Agreed... Though I'm not sure why that has anything to do with what I said. On the contrary. I think the fact there isn't balance with the DO's power makes perfect sense... It's the fact that the DO is necessary for choice that makes no sense, no the balance issue. One of the reasons I like the Wheel of Time is this concept of balance.

Not quite. Everything told us that the DO unbound, free to touch the world destroys balance. The only glimpses of a world in which the DO is bound that we get until the last book are of the AoL, where everything was rather nice and peachy and calm until the bore was drilled.

OK. So first of all, we were also told that while bound, the DO CAN'T touch the pattern. Which again makes the whole "choice" issue make no sense, because being required for choice is a rather big influence on the pattern even while sealed.

I mean, you're right, the picture being painted for us is DO sows chaos and destruction upon everything he touches. Key word there: touches.

Now, again, this makes no sense to me, for the same reason I said before. So the DO destroys balance in one case, but brings balance in another case. It's less important to me what are the specific cases, what matters is the lack of consistency. I'd expect that if the DO destroys balance, that's what he'll do. The fact that he's needed for balance, though he's trying to destroy it, is just bad writing so far as I'm concerned.

By the way, you guys do realize that we've moved to questioning my personal preferences now, right? I find it to be bad writing, I don't like it. You don't have to agree.

This, I think it's just something you have to be dissatisfied with.

I am. I think Fain was wasted here, completely. I read many people who think that. I also read BS's response and understand the lack of space and stuff. Disappointing, but this at least I can understand.

Another way to look at it, which I think was mentioned on these boards somewhere, is that Fain couldn't have had a very important role, because of the very fact that he is unique. If every turning of the Wheel is more or less the same, with some minor changes every time, then a major change like Fain just couldn't happen. The pattern would do something (like... pop out 3 strong ta'veren at once?) to ensure that Fain's presence didn't change things too much.

Theory and propaganda. There were many theories as to how Fain could be important - killing the DO, replacing the DO, and others.

But this truly is less important to me, as I've explained before.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Theory and propaganda. There were many theories as to how Fain could be important - killing the DO, replacing the DO, and others.

But this truly is less important to me, as I've explained before.

It absolutely is theory! That's why I prefaced the whole thing with "I think you just have to be dissatisfied with this." I know the Fain stuff really is pure opinion at this point. Only mentioned it again cause you did, but yeah, that discussion is going nowhere (even more so than the rest :P).

As for the rest of the stuff, I've been trying to focus less on your dislike of the ending and more for the reasons you're putting out for that opinion, as I think some of the facts or assumptions you're making are still flawed. I definitely agree that there's no real point in arguing about whether or not we like something in particular. If you think that's just where this is heading, I don't mind dropping it. But I was trying to focus on the reasons for the opinion and not the opinion itself.

 

[MuKen]

OK
Am next to my computer now.
I'll start by saying that there was a lot of foreshadowing for "my" ending, as well as many other theories on the end.

So let me know if I'm missing anything from your post, but while you keep saying there is "a lot" of foreshadowing, the only specifics I can glean from what you wrote in terms of foreshadowing are what was said about Fain in an interview, and the presence of various fan-made theories. I.e. not even stuff from the books themselves. Was there something else?

Everything in the series told us that the DO disturbs balance...

Everything in the series that the DO disturbs balance was about the DO touching the pattern, as Eluial said. The fact that the Creator, his clear counterpart, chooses not to touch the pattern is to most people a big clue. The Creator, who wants what is good, knows that touching either polarization of good vs evil to the pattern disturbs balance. The DO who wants what is evil, doesn't care about balance, and chooses to intentionally touch his polarization to the pattern.


I still don't see how you can justify a Rand-kills-the-DO ending as being in line with the themes or foreshadowing of the series. You admit that we're clearly set up to see the DO and Creator as counterparts, and the series is primarily about balance.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Except that the reason is also an opinion, as we saw. At least I think it is, since to me it seems inconsisten, but others don't seem to see it that way.

 

[MuKen]

Yes, we are indeed arguing more in the realm of the subjective over the objective at this point.

I still think most of what you are saying focuses on pointing out what you see as negatives, when you can't really say why your or any alternative ending is better. Which as I said is an easy way out to criticise something, and a common shortcoming of most criticisms people make of anything.

I ask again, how does Rand killing the DO connect to the rest of the story any better?