*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

[Toral Delvar]

In that case, there would be no reason not to kill him. If evil exists without him, then people's choice will exist without him.
If there is no evil for people to choose without the DO, then Rand's assumption is that the DO is the source of evil. That logic is unescapable. Otherwise why would killing him result in the lack of choice to do evil?

Because killing him is the same as killing evil. He isn't the source of evil, he is the anthropomorphic personification of evil. As long as evil exists, the Dark One exists, they are basically the same thing. I don't agree that killing him would result in the type of world that was seen, as I don't think the conclusions follow, but killing him would result in a universe without evil.

 

[MuKen]

But that's just it - Rand arranges the pattern as HE THINKS the pattern works, and that is as the DO being the source of evil. That's why it's also so difficult for him to arrange the pattern in that way, as is described in the books, because he's trying to do something which is against the nature of the pattern - he's taking people's choice.

Yes, it's described as "difficult" in the books as in its hard to make the threads do what he wants. But what I'm saying is this goes beyond that. How would Rand even understand what to do? You are saying he INDIVIDUALLY altered every person and every choice they ever made throughout eternity. Rand's brain can't even hold onto that many decision points. That's a lot harder than simply taking out one of the base elements of the system. And by hard, I don't just mean mechanically hard to do, I mean hard to even understand all the countless changes he has to make to achieve what he's trying to do.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Because killing him is the same as killing evil. He isn't the source of evil, he is the anthropomorphic personification of evil. As long as evil exists, the Dark One exists, they are basically the same thing. I don't agree that killing him would result in the type of world that was seen, as I don't think the conclusions follow, but killing him would result in a universe without evil.

SATs 101 - if A exists then B exist doesn't in anyway mean that if B DOESN'T exist then A doesn't exist. In other words, if I have a pole that's casting a shadow, then I turn on another light and the shadow is gone, that in no way means that the pole is gone too.
Unless the DO is the SOURCE of evil, there is no reason killing him will make all evil in the world disappear.
Your thoughts about a manifastation of evil is actually close to another theory I flowted in this thread - that the DO isn't the source of evil at all, but the RESULT of evil. People do evil things, and evil as a concept is being manifested in the DO. This means that Rand can kill the DO all he wants, it wouldn't matter in the end, because as long as evil exists, a new DO will be born again and again to replace the old one.

You are saying he INDIVIDUALLY altered every person and every choice they ever made throughout eternity.

No, I'm saying he doesn't have to do that at all.
I'll start by saying that EVERY world Rand and the DO show each other, under your logic, is the changing of people's choice. Think about the world the DO shows Rand with Gil - the DO changed the pattern to show Rand a world where people have NO CHOICE but to do the evil thing. No one even considers doing something else. Has he NOT changed all the choices of all the people?
Secondly, Rand didn't change anyone's choice. Rand forced the pattern to show him a world without the DO, which he thought is the source of evil, and therefor a world without evil. The pattern resisted, not because it's difficult to show a world without the DO, but because it's difficult to show a world without evil. Rand himself didn't change anyone's individual's choice, he didn't have to. He simply let the pattern show him a world without evil, and the pattern did the rest. He had no reason to change any one person's individual's choice.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Here's another way of thinking about it:
You have a world working on an engine. In this world you have allies and enemies. Whenever an enemy sees an ally, he attacks, and vice versa. Now the programmer inserts a new rule to the game angine, saying that no one can attack anyone ever. He doesn't need to go to each individual character and insert the line of code to them, he simply changes the game engine, and the game engine (or in our case, the pattern) does the rest, as per his specifications. The game engine resists, because if enemies are always spawned but never killed, he will be overloaded after a while, and it's difficult.

I hate analogies.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

SATs 101 - if A exists then B exist doesn't in anyway mean that if B DOESN'T exist then A doesn't exist.

Only relevant if A is not B. Rand explicitly realizes that A == B. A is not equivalent to B, A is *defined as B*. Destroying A destroys B.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Exactly my point! Thank you hammer!
Because Rand thinks this, then the world he creates reflects it.
The question, which I hope will be answered in the up and coming encyclopedia, is whether or not he was right.
My theory may not be accurate yet, as it's still relatively new, but as long as the DO is not the source of evil, Rand made a mistake by not killing him, because that means people can still do evil without him.

Does anyone disagree on this point?

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Exactly my point! Thank you hammer!
Because Rand thinks this, then the world he creates reflects it.
The question, which I hope will be answered in the up and coming encyclopedia, is whether or not he was right.
My theory may not be accurate yet, as it's still relatively new, but as long as the DO is not the source of evil, Rand made a mistake by not killing him, because that means people can still do evil without him.

Does anyone disagree on this point?

We pretty much agree on every single point, including how the pattern manipulation works. The only major point I don't buy is when you're just building in that the DO is not Evil itself, but merely has the trait of being evil.

I agree with your other post about the machine and stuff. That's pretty much exactly how I was viewing things. But the question remains of how much it's pure input, and how much it takes from the intentions of the person manipulating it. If it's pure input, we have to take Rand at his word that he created "A world that does not know the Dark One" and that's it. If it takes intentions along with it, though, then yes, you're right, the lack of evil could have been built in from just due to Rand's beliefs, because it is certainly clear that Rand equates all evil with the DO. He just doesn't fully understand the implications of this until he sees the vision.

But, even if you're right (and Rand and the rest of us are wrong) and the DO is not the embodiment of evil itself, both a concept and a personification, then I STILL am uncomfortable agreeing with your claim that Rand made a mistake. Because in Randland, we (as outside viewers) have evidence of an actual omnipotent/omnicient Creator who used his/her/its will to create this world, which includes the DO. We don't know what the reason is, but that means there was a reason for the DO. Maybe that reason was as simple as he had to be there so the Dragon Soul had the option of overcoming him. But that's just one of many, many possible reasons. Which is why I'd feel uncomfortable agreeing with you.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

We pretty much agree on every single point, including how the pattern manipulation works. The only major point I don't buy is when you're just building in that the DO is not Evil itself, but merely has the trait of being evil.

Would it be easier for you to accept if I told you I'm not the one making that point? It was pointed out in the BWB. It stated clearly that the DO just enhanced negative emotions and evil intentions people already had.
My entire problem with the end is that Rand is basically thinking that what's written in the BWB is wrong, and that the DO is the evil itself, not just affecting it.

the question remains of how much it's pure input, and how much it takes from the intentions of the person manipulating it. If it's pure input, we have to take Rand at his word that he created "A world that does not know the Dark One" and that's it. If it takes intentions along with it, though, then yes, you're right, the lack of evil could have been built in from just due to Rand's beliefs, because it is certainly clear that Rand equates all evil with the DO. He just doesn't fully understand the implications of this until he sees the vision.

Indeed, I agree with everything you say here. That IS a question worth asking. Not sure we'll ever get the answer though.

But, even if you're right (and Rand and the rest of us are wrong) and the DO is not the embodiment of evil itself, both a concept and a personification, then I STILL am uncomfortable agreeing with your claim that Rand made a mistake. Because in Randland, we (as outside viewers) have evidence of an actual omnipotent/omnicient Creator who used his/her/its will to create this world, which includes the DO. We don't know what the reason is, but that means there was a reason for the DO. Maybe that reason was as simple as he had to be there so the Dragon Soul had the option of overcoming him. But that's just one of many, many possible reasons. Which is why I'd feel uncomfortable agreeing with you.

I had a theory for that too, actually.
Think of what is always said in the books: The Creator sealed the DO at the moment of creation.
Now, we've always thought this means that the Creator created the world, and the DO, then sealed the DO. But that sounds a little strange does it not? I mean, if he wanted to lock him up, why create him? If he wanted to test humans with the DO's effects, why not allow him to influence the world but in a limited fashion? Why not make him weaker?
What if that sentence says something else? What if the Creator didn't lock the DO at the moment he created it? What if the Creator locked the DO at the moment it was created by another means? What if the DO is indeed the embodiment of evil, but what gave him life was the choice. That same choice the Creator gave. Choosing to do "good" and live in the light is living with the Creator, but when people chose to do evil, their evil created an antithesis for the creator, in the form of the DO? What if the DO is the RESULT of evil, NOT it's source?

If that's true, then I still think Rand made a mistake, but his mistake would have made no difference, since a new DO (or the same one?) would have been reborn to replace the one he killed, and nothing would have changed anyway.

 

[MuKen]

Here's another way of thinking about it:
You have a world working on an engine. In this world you have allies and enemies. Whenever an enemy sees an ally, he attacks, and vice versa. Now the programmer inserts a new rule to the game angine, saying that no one can attack anyone ever. He doesn't need to go to each individual character and insert the line of code to them, he simply changes the game engine, and the game engine (or in our case, the pattern) does the rest, as per his specifications. The game engine resists, because if enemies are always spawned but never killed, he will be overloaded after a while, and it's difficult.

I hate analogies.

Alright, but now by considering this, you acknowledge that a single entity in the Pattern is capable of representing this "rule". I.e. a single element can be responsible for "automatically" altering every decision. So my question is, now, why do you believe Rand can create a single "evil remover" entity that affects all the threads, but you are so opposed to the possibility that there was already a single entity that enabled the choice in everyone in the first place?

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Again - because the BWB specifically said this wasn't the case. During the books we've been told that when the DO was sealed away with the original wall (not LTT's damaged version) he could not touch the world, so much so that people didn't know he existed. Saying now that both the BWB was wrong AND that the basic assumption is wrong and the DO infact DOES effect the world even when he is locked away (his effect being a choice for people), that makes no sense to me.
RJ, the master of foreshadowing, suddenly drops the bomb at the last second? A "choice" was never an important part of the story's plot. The DO was never even hinted as having anything to do with such a choice (as I've explained before, he LIMITS people's choices, not granting them!), this same RJ couldn't have given us REAL foreshadowing of this? Just drop it in at the last second? No, I'm sorry, too many things just don't add up in my head.

 

[AnAnonymousWOTFan]

Again - because the BWB specifically said this wasn't the case. During the books we've been told that when the DO was sealed away with the original wall (not LTT's damaged version) he could not touch the world, so much so that people didn't know he existed.

False. The Bore was drilled because the TP was detected, and if it could he felt, it could probably affect the Pattern. Remember, we are told he is not allowed to touch it while Sealed away. This is different from having some sort of entropic effect from a distance.

Saying now that both the BWB was wrong AND that the basic assumption is wrong and the DO infact DOES effect the world even when he is locked away (his effect being a choice for people), that makes no sense to me.

Saying that a Third Age scholar who NEVER MET OR CONVERSED WITH the Dark One and didn't know anyone who did is wrong about the Dark One is not so far-fetched. As I have pointed out, that assumption that you made that he affects the Pattern in no way while sealed away is false.

RJ, the master of foreshadowing, suddenly drops the bomb at the last second? A "choice" was never an important part of the story's plot. The DO was never even hinted as having anything to do with such a choice (as I've explained before, he LIMITS people's choices, not granting them!), this same RJ couldn't have given us REAL foreshadowing of this? Just drop it in at the last second? No, I'm sorry, too many things just don't add up in my head.

Um, the whole thing on Dragonmount was foreshadowing. "So we can do better next time" positively screams to me that choice of some sort is involved in the Pattern, as with no choice there is no way to do better. As has been previously pointed out, the EXISTENCE of the darkness to turn to is the choice. Once you turn to the Dark, your choices are limited (though you can re-choose with difficulty), just as it is the same with the Light. As we saw in Rand's "perfect" world, removing the Dark forces you to the Light in the same way Turning someone to the Dark does. The ability to turn between two equally plausible alternatives (Light and Dark) is the substance of choice, NOT the results of that choice. I believe you are confusing the two.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

False. The Bore was drilled because the TP was detected, and if it could he felt, it could probably affect the Pattern. Remember, we are told he is not allowed to touch it while Sealed away. This is different from having some sort of entropic effect from a distance.

I've read that too, but there's a problem here: the TP cannot be "detected." It is unfelt except by those the DO gives permission to touch it. So we're left with 2 possibilities:
1. Everything said in the books is wrong and people can feel and attempt to touch the True Power without the DO's permission.
2. The DO, even when locked, can sense the world and even individuals and give them access to the True Power.

Now, the second option is problematic, since we know that's not exactly the case, as we're told specifically that people didn't even know of the DO's existence.
Now we're both going to be stuck with the same dillemma. I'm going to say "what's more likely is that the description given in the BWB about why they made the bore might not be accurate," but then the question will rise on why I think it's accurate when they talk about the DO only enhancing people's emotions? BUT I will say, "but if that's accurate, then why do you think it's not accurate when they say the DO only enhanced people's emotions?
I have no answer to this, as it seems to be going in circles in both directions no matter how you look at it. It is possible that RJ simply hadn't planned things as good as we would have liked.

Saying that a Third Age scholar who NEVER MET OR CONVERSED WITH the Dark One and didn't know anyone who did is wrong about the Dark One is not so far-fetched. As I have pointed out, that assumption that you made that he affects the Pattern in no way while sealed away is false.

I have yet to see why you think it's false. Even if we assume people can SENSE him (or the TP, whatever), that's still very different then saying he can affect anything. Also I'm not the one who made that assumption. That's the assumption all throughout the books. Including Rand's when he reseals the bore, otherwise theres no real point in doing so.
About the scholars - I've already explained many times, in length, why this assumption that the 10 minutes Rand spend talking to the DO, in which he was prooven wrong at least once already, makes Rand an expert, is false in my eyes. The scholars however have A LOT of knowledge, both theoretical AND from the Age of Legends. Rand uses such theoretical knowledge to seal the bore, which clearly means HE thinks these type of people know at least something about this issue.

Um, the whole thing on Dragonmount was foreshadowing. "So we can do better next time" positively screams to me that choice of some sort is involved in the Pattern, as with no choice there is no way to do better.

Yeah... First of all, I'd expect something as large as this to be thrown in a little earlier then, like, a book and a half ago.
Secondly, really? I think it's exactly the other way around!
Let me ask you something - what is the value of a choice if you know that (A) no matter what you choose, you can fix it later, and (B) you can't learn from your choice, because time is circular and you'll make the same choice the next turn? I'm asking seriously, because this makes NO SENSE. So we can do better next time?! You WON'T do better next time! That's the nature of circular time! 6 ages from now, LTT in his new name will do EXACTLY the same mistake he did last time, and 3,000 years later someone else will fix it. Nothing can be learned, nothing can be changed. This whole "to do things better next time" is, basically, a fraud. It makes absolutly NO SENSE whatsoever.

As has been previously pointed out, the EXISTENCE of the darkness to turn to is the choice.

And I agree with that... I just disagree that the DO has anything to do with that choice. That's the whole discussion. Evil exists, in my view, with or without the DO. He simply makes it easier for people to choose evil. That's his whole job.
Honest, it was in the job description.

Once you turn to the Dark, your choices are limited (though you can re-choose with difficulty), just as it is the same with the Light.

I disagree that it's the same... AT ALL.

As for the rest of the messege - that's exactly what we've discussed before, about what it is exactly Rand forced the pattern to show - a world without the DO, or a world without evil at all. I see no need to talk about it again, since we'll be going in circles.

 

[AnAnonymousWOTFan]

I've read that too, but there's a problem here: the TP cannot be "detected." It is unfelt except by those the DO gives permission to touch it. So we're left with 2 possibilities:
1. Everything said in the books is wrong and people can feel and attempt to touch the True Power without the DO's permission.
2. The DO, even when locked, can sense the world and even individuals and give them access to the True Power.

It says they sensed a source of energy. This is most probably the TP, though it may not be - the negative energy of space is considered tremendous, and as RJ was a physicist this may be the answer.

I have yet to see why you think it's false. Even if we assume people can SENSE him (or the TP, whatever), that's still very different then saying he can affect anything. Also I'm not the one who made that assumption. That's the assumption all throughout the books. Including Rand's when he reseals the bore, otherwise theres no real point in doing so.
About the scholars - I've already explained many times, in length, why this assumption that the 10 minutes Rand spend talking to the DO, in which he was prooven wrong at least once already, makes Rand an expert, is false in my eyes. The scholars however have A LOT of knowledge, both theoretical AND from the Age of Legends. Rand uses such theoretical knowledge to seal the bore, which clearly means HE thinks these type of people know at least something about this issue.

Being an expert on Pattern metaphysics is far removed from knowing anything about the Dark One. That is all Herid Fel was; he knew nothing of the DO, and neither did the Third Age scholar. Having piecemeal theoretical knowledge is far less than feeling the DO actually tear into you, etc.

Yeah... First of all, I'd expect something as large as this to be thrown in a little earlier then, like, a book and a half ago.
Secondly, really? I think it's exactly the other way around!
Let me ask you something - what is the value of a choice if you know that (A) no matter what you choose, you can fix it later, and (B) you can't learn from your choice, because time is circular and you'll make the same choice the next turn? I'm asking seriously, because this makes NO SENSE. So we can do better next time?! You WON'T do better next time! That's the nature of circular time! 6 ages from now, LTT in his new name will do EXACTLY the same mistake he did last time, and 3,000 years later someone else will fix it. Nothing can be learned, nothing can be changed. This whole "to do things better next time" is, basically, a fraud. It makes absolutly NO SENSE whatsoever.

The value of the choice is that it is made. It makes no difference if the choice can be undone, for if it could not it would not truly be a choice, more of an educated-guess based lottery. Ultimately, the "choice" you made is not where you are at the present moment, but is evaluated over the entirety of your life-thread. Second, the Wheel allows for slight changes between cycles. Who knows? Maybe in a few Turns, LTT actually succeeds in Sealing the DO away right. The point of the 3k years later fixing, though, was that Rand, aka LTT, was fixing his mistake. Thus, it is not a fraud.

And I agree with that... I just disagree that the DO has anything to do with that choice. That's the whole discussion. Evil exists, in my view, with or without the DO. He simply makes it easier for people to choose evil. That's his whole job.
Honest, it was in the job description.

But, first, your view is directly countered by the most knowledgeable of viewpoints in the text. Second, the DO can be the source of all evil and still make it easier to choose evil when released. Consider - an entropic force is being held away from a group of parallel strings. The entropy affects the strings, but not very much - they are held together still. Now, release a few of the bonds that hold the entropy back - the force move closer and the strings move wider apart. If we accept this analogy, which by descriptions of Pattern metaphysics and the prison makes it seem plausible, then we can see how a source of entropy that, if removed, removes ALL entropy from the universe, can, by the loosening of bonds, serve to increase the entropic effect (read evil character of the Age Lace) being exerted on the Pattern.

I disagree that it's the same... AT ALL.

It is different in the sense that Turning to the Light via killing the DO is irreversible whilst Turning to the DO in the Pattern is reversible.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

It says they sensed a source of energy. This is most probably the TP, though it may not be - the negative energy of space is considered tremendous, and as RJ was a physicist this may be the answer.

I don't know how big of an expert RJ was, etc. I only know that, on the surface, this whole thing seems badly put together, contradictory at many points.

Being an expert on Pattern metaphysics is far removed from knowing anything about the Dark One. That is all Herid Fel was; he knew nothing of the DO, and neither did the Third Age scholar. Having piecemeal theoretical knowledge is far less than feeling the DO actually tear into you, etc.

And yet, that having the DO tear into him, etc. did not stop him from being wrong right at the start. You keep saying how important Rand's PoV is, but no one here has yet to acknoledge the fact that he was wrong. Yeah, in the course of 10 minutes of knowing the DO he was wrong, and on a VERY crucial detail such as "is it at all possible to kill the DO"... Indeed, sounds like an expert to me.
You also seem to think that those philosophers, who had vast AoL knowledge, don't know what they're talking about. Yet I've repeatedly asked people here to show me in how many places were the people who wrote the BWB wrong. No one here seems to answer me.

The value of the choice is that it is made. It makes no difference if the choice can be undone, for if it could not it would not truly be a choice, more of an educated-guess based lottery. Ultimately, the "choice" you made is not where you are at the present moment, but is evaluated over the entirety of your life-thread. Second, the Wheel allows for slight changes between cycles. Who knows? Maybe in a few Turns, LTT actually succeeds in Sealing the DO away right. The point of the 3k years later fixing, though, was that Rand, aka LTT, was fixing his mistake. Thus, it is not a fraud.

Yeah... Sealing the bore correctly vs. incorrectly is a "slight change" in the pattern... Are you kidding me?! This whole "choice" thing dropped at the last moment, with no foreshadowing AT ALL (no, Dragonmount is hardly a foreshadowing of "choice"), which makes no real sense, since we know time is repititive, is a farce! It makes 0 sense to talk about choice in a world where time is repititive, and even less so when the so called "foreshadowing" is basically saying "it doesn't matter what you choose, you'll be able to fix it later."
Also, if the value of choice is that "it is made," then the DO is redundent. If people choosing to do good is walking in the light, then what's the opposite of doing evil but not being a darkfriend? Nasically you have: Light, Evil or Shadow, which is also evil. That makes NO SENSE!

But, first, your view is directly countered by the most knowledgeable of viewpoints in the text.

No. It is countered by Rand's PoV, based on his whole 10 minutes spent with the DO, in which he was already wrong about important details. He also for sure had so much time to think things over, understand everything, let the details sink in... Oh, no wait, he didn't.
That's like asking me to decide about a crucial homeland security after talking to the director of the FBI for an hour. Does that make sense to you? Because it sounds REALLY silly to me. Rand is far from being an expert on the subject.
And yes, I do believe theorists on the DO, after years of study and knowledge from the AoL, can reach better decisions then him.

Second, the DO can be the source of all evil and still make it easier to choose evil when released.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, logically. I'm saying that it's not how it works, based on everything we've seen in the books, and what's written in the BWB.

It is different in the sense that Turning to the Light via killing the DO is irreversible whilst Turning to the DO in the Pattern is reversible.

It's different in the sense that one can do evil without turning to the DO, which means choosing the light or evil is the same, while choosing the Shadow is completely different. Choosing to go over to the Shadow is the only thing in the books that we've seen limiting people's choice in this matter. The only exception is Rand's view of a world without evil/the DO, which we are still not in agreement on regarding to which of the two he imagined.

 

[Jas'yn Al'Dragoran]

It's the age old question: How can you know what "light" is if you've never seen "dark?"

But Rand answers this earlier, quite well I think, when he points out that dark is nothing on its own but the absence of light. He also mentions "the DO was not the enemy. It never had been" p. 891 I think this is critical, it is no that the death of the DO would make us all automatons of goodness, but that the DO is irrelevant, truly nothing. What matters are our choices. I think that is the mainpoint myself.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

And yet, that having the DO tear into him, etc. did not stop him from being wrong right at the start. You keep saying how important Rand's PoV is, but no one here has yet to acknoledge the fact that he was wrong. Yeah, in the course of 10 minutes of knowing the DO he was wrong, and on a VERY crucial detail such as "is it at all possible to kill the DO"... Indeed, sounds like an expert to me.

Just because Rand was wrong about one thing at the start of the encounter doesn't mean he was wrong about everything or that he didn't learn more along the way. Being wrong once doesn't mean you're always wrong, just like being right once doesn't make you an expert.

Also, really, I thought we already settled that you would stop strawmaning things. He was not in there for "10 minutes" -- stop saying that like it's some sort of gospel or is at all relevant to the discussion. And even if the time span was short (at least several hours), the experience was pretty meaningful.

 

[AnAnonymousWOTFan]

And yet, that having the DO tear into him, etc. did not stop him from being wrong right at the start. You keep saying how important Rand's PoV is, but no one here has yet to acknoledge the fact that he was wrong. Yeah, in the course of 10 minutes of knowing the DO he was wrong, and on a VERY crucial detail such as "is it at all possible to kill the DO"... Indeed, sounds like an expert to me.

He was not wrong at the start. He dropped hope of killing the DO after entering his prison - he never said anything about it not being possible.

You also seem to think that those philosophers, who had vast AoL knowledge, don't know what they're talking about. Yet I've repeatedly asked people here to show me in how many places were the people who wrote the BWB wrong. No one here seems to answer me.

You are missing our crucial point. They had knowledge of everything, direct, verifiable knowledge, of everything sans the DO. The Forsaken, AoL history, everything, could be taken at face value from text, but NO ONE IN THE THIRD AGE OR AOL EVER TALKED OR MET THE DO (except for the Forsaken, but I don't think they would contribute anything historically).

Yeah... Sealing the bore correctly vs. incorrectly is a "slight change" in the pattern... Are you kidding me?! This whole "choice" thing dropped at the last moment, with no foreshadowing AT ALL (no, Dragonmount is hardly a foreshadowing of "choice"), which makes no real sense, since we know time is repititive, is a farce! It makes 0 sense to talk about choice in a world where time is repititive, and even less so when the so called "foreshadowing" is basically saying "it doesn't matter what you choose, you'll be able to fix it later."

Still, you can make the choice. That is what counts. And you misunderstood what I said. In A FEW TURNS (hundreds, maybe, idk), LTT may be able to Seal the Bore correctly. Small changes add up to large ones over time.

Also, if the value of choice is that "it is made," then the DO is redundent. If people choosing to do good is walking in the light, then what's the opposite of doing evil but not being a darkfriend? Nasically you have: Light, Evil or Shadow, which is also evil. That makes NO SENSE!

Um, what? Please clarify. Where did you pull Evil away from Shadow? They are the same. Being a Darkfriend is choosing evil (Shadow) just as committing murder is doing evil (Shadow). There is no distinction.

No. It is countered by Rand's PoV, based on his whole 10 minutes spent with the DO, in which he was already wrong about important details. He also for sure had so much time to think things over, understand everything, let the details sink in... Oh, no wait, he didn't.
That's like asking me to decide about a crucial homeland security after talking to the director of the FBI for an hour. Does that make sense to you? Because it sounds REALLY silly to me. Rand is far from being an expert on the subject.
And yes, I do believe theorists on the DO, after years of study and knowledge from the AoL, can reach better decisions then him.

Then you have serious issues with making value-based judgements. He is the only person in history to know of the DO, to meet him, to see the DO's plans, and you would value his less than a scholar's ideas, a scholar who is making wild guesses with no real idea? Remember, we are talking about the DO, not the Pattern.

Remember, Rand also mentions that, because of slowed-time, it felt like "thousands of years". Your "10-minutes with the DO" thing is nowhere near accurate.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, logically. I'm saying that it's not how it works, based on everything we've seen in the books, and what's written in the BWB.

As I've said, the BWB is not an accurate source of info on the DO. The scholars can be right about everything inside the Pattern, but they have no knowledge, and no basis to base theories on the DO on, of the DO. And please cite where the books say that's not how it works.

It's different in the sense that one can do evil without turning to the DO, which means choosing the light or evil is the same, while choosing the Shadow is completely different. Choosing to go over to the Shadow is the only thing in the books that we've seen limiting people's choice in this matter. The only exception is Rand's view of a world without evil/the DO, which we are still not in agreement on regarding to which of the two he imagined.

You can easily do good without turning to the Light's military side and without pledging to the Creator/Rand, etc. Think Tinkers.

 

[AnAnonymousWOTFan]

Just because Rand was wrong about one thing at the start of the encounter doesn't mean he was wrong about everything or that he didn't learn more along the way. Being wrong once doesn't mean you're always wrong, just like being right once doesn't make you an expert.

Also, really, I thought we already settled that you would stop strawmaning things. He was not in there for "10 minutes" -- stop saying that like it's some sort of gospel or is at all relevant to the discussion. And even if the time span was short (at least several hours), the experience was pretty meaningful.

He wasn't wrong, though. After feeling the vastness of the DO, he gave up on killing him in his prison as he had told Moiraine he was going to do. He never explicitly stated the DO was unkillable.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Just because Rand was wrong about one thing at the start of the encounter doesn't mean he was wrong about everything

Doesn't mean he was right about it either.

He was not wrong at the start. He dropped hope of killing the DO after entering his prison - he never said anything about it not being possible.

Semantics. He believed he could not kill the DO. It says "any notion" of killing the DO vanished, not "any notin of killing the DO outside the pattern" vanished.

You are missing our crucial point. They had knowledge of everything, direct, verifiable knowledge, of everything sans the DO. The Forsaken, AoL history, everything, could be taken at face value from text, but NO ONE IN THE THIRD AGE OR AOL EVER TALKED OR MET THE DO (except for the Forsaken, but I don't think they would contribute anything historically).

So what? My teacher at the university never built a state budget. That doesn't stop him from teaching people how it's done. Look this is a silly argument. You see Rand as the only viable source of information, thus believing everything he thinks/does is the correct thing. I don't think he's such a viable source of information. I fail to see how any of us can convince the other, since we're basically saying the same things over and over.

Still, you can make the choice. That is what counts.

But again - the question is if that choice has anything to do with the DO or not. If one can choose to be evil WITHOUT being a darkfriend, then it makes no sense to me that the DO is the force behind the evil in the world... Well that and everything else I said. It just makes no sense to me.

Um, what? Please clarify. Where did you pull Evil away from Shadow? They are the same. Being a Darkfriend is choosing evil (Shadow) just as committing murder is doing evil (Shadow). There is no distinction.

Of course there is. We've seen people doing evil things without being darkfriends in the series, many times.

He is the only person in history to know of the DO

False.

to meet him

False.

to see the DO's plans

False again.

and you would value his less than a scholar's ideas, a scholar who is making wild guesses with no real idea? Remember, we are talking about the DO, not the Pattern.

Ye,I do, with good reason. You're assuming that in order to understand something, one simply "must" do it specifically. I find that disturbing, since I hardly think it's true. Also, as I've shown, at least one of these "theorists" was right on the money when it comes to the DO.
Also you're STILL avoiding my very simple question - in the whole BWB, how many instences do we have of being wrong? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but how many examples do we have?

Remember, Rand also mentions that, because of slowed-time, it felt like "thousands of years". Your "10-minutes with the DO" thing is nowhere near accurate.

I'm sure it feels like a long time, but "feeling like" and "being" aren't the same thing.
Tell me something - if I told you I spent a few hours talking to an insane person, and that now I am an expert on insane behavior, would you believe me? Or would you now think I should probably be commited myself?
I can't believe everyone here accepts this craziness at face value. It makes NO SENSE!

As I've said, the BWB is not an accurate source of info on the DO. The scholars can be right about everything inside the Pattern, but they have no knowledge, and no basis to base theories on the DO on, of the DO. And please cite where the books say that's not how it works.

First of all, we know nothing of what they do or do not know, but I find it hard to believe scholars and researchers will simply "make stuff up." If they wrote it, I assume they had a reason to.
Second of all - which quote do you want? That what's not working as what?

You can easily do good without turning to the Light's military side and without pledging to the Creator/Rand, etc. Think Tinkers.

Exactly my point. To think in terms of "choice between Shadow/DO or Light/Creator" is bullshit! It makes NO SENSE!

Have you played Mass Effect 3? This ending feels just the same to me. The rumer was that ME3's ending was leaking before the game was released, so they wrote a new ending, which then made little sense and really felt patched together with no connection to the game.
If this ending is at face value, then that's how it feels like. As if the fanbase had so many theories and RJ just wanted to be "original," so instead of going with all the foreshadowing he gave us and everything, he went with something completely rediculous, that was never foreshadowed, that was patched up and made no sense at all.
Here's another example - Rand is saying that he now "understand" that the DO was never the "real enemy." What does that mean? What IS the real enemy then? Human nature? The Choice? Didn't he just spared the DO in order to preserve that choice? Are we now not in the business of defeating our enemies? Suddenly there's a new villain in town, folks! we've never seen him, we never met him, but sure, why not.
And don't tell me that we've had this under our noses the whole time. People in the series chose to join the shadow, sure. They had their reasons, but the fact that they "had a choice" was NEVER a big part of the series, EVER! It was not mentioned once, not foreshadowed (no, not even on dragon mount, that makes no sense either).
It's just pure bullshit. And the more I reread it the stranger it becomes and the less sense it makes.

 

[chrnno]

You know this thread discussion started out interesting but the last few pages were basically several people using the same argument reaching several conclusions and then proceeding to use said conclusion to prove the other's conclusion doesn't work because the argument leading to it doesn't completely ignoring the fact that the same was used.

I am curious though on how what Rand did could be considered a mistake since the two main ideas on this thread is that either it would have been a catastrophic event that humanity would never notice or it wouldn't have made any difference.