*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by thedeltaflyer, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Keelinnea Isyne

    Keelinnea Isyne Aes Sedai

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    Depends also on what Hawkwing may have said to her, other than just hi. And she did concede Rand/LTT had precedence over her claim to the lands.
     
  2. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    Do you think Hawking actually went and did what Mat asked? I wasn't sure if he just viewed it as an obscure joke from The Gambler.
     
  3. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    I'd like to think that Hawkwing might've.

    And while Tuon did agree that Rand's claim had precedence, Rand is, for all intents and purposes, gone now. Besides, whatever Tuon thinks is irrelevent, in the long run. Even if she is convinced that they shouldn't push into Randland, there are undoubtedly a lot of High Blood who would see a refusal to do so as a sign of weakness. And whether by age or murder, Tuon will die before long (unless she starts channeling).

    Tuon would have to reshape and refocus the entire Empire to prevent it from invading Randland. Change the very core of what the Seanchan are.
     
  4. Keelinnea Isyne

    Keelinnea Isyne Aes Sedai

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    Yes, I think he did. He may have thought it a joke, but I still think he went to her.
     
  5. Keelinnea Isyne

    Keelinnea Isyne Aes Sedai

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    Hasn't she "started channeling" by training damane? I remember somewhere reading the Sul'dam start seeing weaves after awhile...so to me I would think that is them channeling at some point to gain that skill.
     
  6. Kiranthus Solaron

    Kiranthus Solaron

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    When confronted witht he ability of Sul'dam to learn to be able to channel, Tuon rebuffs it to a point by stating there is a difference between being able to channel and choosing not to versus inately being able to channel. It is a thin line, but I imagine that it would enough to hold onto that custom excluding other circumstances. Mat and Min's influence, her agreement with Egwene to allow any who want to go tot he AS to go, and seeing the AS actions during the last battle all could weaken that stance but could also just as easily be ignored as Mat/Min have little real say, Egwene is dead so she isnt compelled to actually hold to the agreement, and the AS actions could just be played off as a last battle oddity.

    The way it is left, Tuon (or any other Seanchen leader who gets lucky and kills her) would be reasonably able to keep thier standard of society as well as cripple the mainlanders at the end of the series. I think this is why RJ had confirmed this was one of the outriggers he definitely had planned that we will unfortunately never see.
     
  7. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    It's more being on the cusp of being able to channel.

     
  8. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    The Sul'dam being on the edge of channeling is also exemplified with those two sul'dam Mat encountered (don't remember which book, exactly), who had been captured, and missed using the One Power through damane so much, that they wanted the Aes Sedai (Teslyn, Joline and Edesina, I think) to teach them to channel. When they refused, the sul'dam actually managed to create a weave, which led the Aes Sedai to the conclusion that now she had to be trained, since she'd started channeling. So, very very close to the edge. It really is just a conscious effort away, for those who've been sul'dam for quite a while.
     
  9. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    You mean Bethamin and Seta right?

    I'm pretty sure you're imagining the whole missing the One Power business.

    As far as I remember Bethamin started to channel when she was under the impression she was in danger from the Aes Sedai, and even then tried to say they didn't want to learn,

    Let me see, that would have been early in Knife of Dreams

    okay got the passage

     
  10. Keelinnea Isyne

    Keelinnea Isyne Aes Sedai

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    Ahh, I wasn't sure. Thank you, Axis Gaidin.
     
  11. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Actually, it was Seta I was referring to, not Bethamin.

    I'm fairly positive it was indicated somewhere that she did it because she missed feeling saidar through the a'dam, but maybe that was just my guess at why she wanted to learn.
     
  12. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Tuon is around 20, so has probably only been training for 4-5 years which is probably too young to have got right to the edge and the stage where she can be held by an a'dam. OTOH, she gets to train whenever she feels like it, so has more opportunity than most sul'dam
     
  13. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Yes Seta asked later to be taught as well, I don't think we ever learned her motivations for doing so though. I don't rememeber any POV from her about missing saidar. Possible though I guess if you can find the passage.

    Perhaps something to do with coming to respect the Aes Sedai, being afraid in a new world and wanting power, wanting to stay with bethamin, or being angry at Seanchan for lying etc.......... could be any number of reasons for her to want to learn really.

    Which is interesting as she used the exact same weave that Bethamin did, so she was clearly able to see weaves at this point to be able to learn that as Setalle later suspected during Bethamins training so she must have been right on the edge as well even at that point ready to tip over.

    See how much easier these discussions are when we pull out quotes?
     
  14. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    I don't have the time to pull out more quotes now, but I do believe it is mentioned several times that the sul'dam ... well, they don't weave per se, but they can make the damane weave without having to ask, like they can force them to seize saidar with a thought. Doing the same with weaves would require them to know what they look like. IIRC, some sul'dam commented on this somewhere, saying something along the lines of it being an "echo" that sul'dam learned to sense through the a'dam. So they actually know that they can sense the weaves, but they believe it is through the use of the a'dam, not through their own channeling ability.
     
  15. Raeviendha al'Toma

    Raeviendha al'Toma Accepted

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    Ninya Sedai I understand EXACTLY what you're saying and agree. That being said, the book disappointed me a smidge. Just not enough answers darn it.
     
  16. AnAnonymousWOTFan

    AnAnonymousWOTFan

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    Seanchan people disgust me. I'm glad Mat is going there, because he has a wierd way of making jerks and smug idiots look like fools. If anyone can make Seanchan a land of not-absolute jerkoffs, Mat can.
     
  17. AnAnonymousWOTFan

    AnAnonymousWOTFan

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    Imperfection generates progress I feel like sums up the reason Randlandians need the DO.
     
  18. Eluial Aldaran

    Eluial Aldaran A real gaydin Aes Sedai

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    Copy/pasted from this thread to continue the discussion here instead of splitting it up:

    I don't see how you can separate Aes Sedai knowledge from 3rd age scholar knowledge. Aren't they going to be the same? I mean, if you're talking 3000 years of accumulated knowledge (since the breaking), you HAVE to take into account Aes Sedai records, because honestly, that's where the bulk of the saved information is going to come from. Herid Fel and his ilk were not theorizing or researching in a vacuum. You can't simultaneously discount one source of 3rd age knowledge (Aes Sedai) while raising up another (scholars that wrote the BWB).

    3rd age scholars got things wrong (Heroes of the Horn is a great example). They were all working on hearsay and speculation. Rand had first hand knowledge from 2 different lives.

    That is a big, BIG assumption to make, and one that is not in the least supported by cannon, and really depends on what your definition of "touch the pattern" is. Was he able to do things like talk to people directly, or influence dreams, like he did in the 3rd age? Clearly not. But something of his was leaking through, or else Mierin would never have discovered the True Power and drilled the bore in the first place.

    You can't equate "sealed away" with "not existing." We KNOW that evil can be done while he's sealed away, and we KNOW that at least some of his essence leaked into the world while he was sealed away. We don't KNOW that if ceased to exist, if evil itself would cease to exist, but we have reason to believe it.

    I can't help but feel like you're purposefully mischaracterizing this point. Choice isn't something the DO consciously gives. And the choice isn't just about choosing to follow the light or be evil. It's much more than that.

    Look, if there's no CONCEPT of evil, then there's no concept of anything we consider bad -- stealing, lying, cheating, murder, etc -- then people can't do those things. It's not just that people don't want to do those things. It's that they have NO IDEA. It never occurs to them to do so. I know this is an incredibly foreign idea to us. As humans, I don't think we even know what that would possibly be like. The best example I can give is if you've seen the movie The Invention of Lying (if not, read up about it, not gonna summarize it here).

    So the choice isn't the DO saying "oh, you're my minion, but do whatever you want." It's his mere existence. I get you don't accept that the DO *is* Evil, not just an evil thing, but even so, you've strawmanned this particular part of the argument enough times that I wanted to make this point clear.

    So far, I think this is probably the best point. However, MuKen (above) is quite right. Aridhol's evil still stems from the shadow. It came from peoples' cruelty and mistrust, sparked by Mordeth's advice. Without the dark one, there is no cruelty. I mean, it's not even that "without the dark one, there would have been no armies of the shadow to fight." It's that those emotions that created Mashadar and made Aridhol what it became could never have existed without evil -- there would have been no choice to feel those emotions.

    Anyway, if we take the DO's death to be equivalent to being Turned to the Light, then Fain would no longer be evil. He wouldn't have the choice to continue killing or all the other things he does. Mashadar is a tougher question, though. It seems to be a natural (well, magical) entity, now, so maybe its existence is independent of its origin, and it's more like a mindless animal than something actually evil. But I don't know enough about it to feel comfortable saying anything.

    Exactly this. *Rand* is creating those worlds from the pattern. If the DO had woven the threads, then you'd have a point. But he didn't. If we're to accept that a mere human (albeit a many-times-reincarnated one) is able to defeat the DO, then we have to accept that in some capacity or another he is the DO's equal (at least, the equal of the sentient, anthropomorphised part of the DO). He manipulated the pattern, but the pattern itself is neither good nor evil, so it just showed the truth. It's like a mathematical function or a machine -- garbage in, garbage out.
     
  19. MuKen

    MuKen

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    Also copy pasted from other thread

    Not to be antagonistic, but individually each of those reasonings seems pretty weak, and to me they don't "add up" to become anything stronger than they are apart.

    People don't consider a Rand an authority on the subject because of what he studied during his life or who he talked to. They consider him an expert because he was THERE with the DO manipulating reality in the same way and from the same place that the DO does. That gives him a pretty unique perspective that easily places him as the single best person to listen to when discussing the nature of the DO. How can we possibly put more weight to some random scholar who wrote a book and just theorizes with no first-hand experience? The guy has never once even spoken with the DO, that puts him below dozens of other people in terms of how well he understands the DO.

    The third option, and the one I think we are 'supposed' to glean from what we are told at the end of the book, is that the DO is the embodiment of one side of that choice. So of course, being the embodiment of one side, when he takes on his own consciousness, that consciousness' goal is to add an influence to everyone choose that way. And by sealing away that conscious form, they prevent it from exerting its additional influence. That doesn't make it no longer what it is: the embodiment of that side of that choice.

    Aridhol isn't the opposite of the DO, Aridhol opposes the DO. Those are two very different things. Aridhol is itself a part of the DO, they said early on in the books that they used the "Shadow's own tactics" against them. It's no different from having the DO's own True Power turned on himself at the end of the series.

    He may not have had time to think about it, but we do, and the reasoning he came up with stands: the world without the DO was created by Rand. He wove it in its entirety from the base fabric of possibilities. Those pieces weren't given to him by the DO, so they can't be part of the DO's lies. That reality is what would happen if there were no DO.
     
  20. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    I'm not sure seperating them is the right word... I'm absolutly sure that there are Aes Sedai, I imagine from the brown Ajah, that have vast knowledge on the subject. That is, after all, their job. I just can't recall any of them actually teaching it to Rand.
    I also agree that the theorists didn't work in a vaccume. In fact, RJ told us that they had vast knowledge from this age and the previous one. This just proves my point that it's reasonable to assume that they had information Rand did not (as I've explained that Rand had no such knowledge, and LTT lived most of his life WITHOUT the DO, and then at war with him, not exactly researching his nature).

    Like I've said, that's just not true. LTT had no experience that would give him insight at the nature of the DO. Most of his life he was absent, then they were at war with him. We've seen nowhere in the books any indication that he has such insight.
    Rand, too, had but one experience, at the last battle, and as I've explained and will also show in this messege, that experience is... Problematic... At best.

    Actually, that's not described like that ANYWHERE. Lanfear discovered the power not because it "leaked" into the pattern. She discovered a place where the pattern was "thinner." How she sensed the power behind it was never revealed.
    Also, it's not a big assumption to make. It's being told to us half the series, plain as day. The DO couldn't touch the world before the bore was created. It was repeated again and again.

    We also have reason to believe that it will keep existing without him. That's the whole point. Rand BELIEVES evil will not exist. That's a belief, not a fact.

    Of course it is, which is why it surprised me so much to see it reduced to this level at the end of the book. As if killing the DO will make people stop choosing to do bad things. That makes no sense, since we know they did bad things WITHOUT his influence during the AoL.

    I agree. But the assumption that the DO is what gives the concept of evil in the world is, IMHO, just wrong. He's not the concept. A concept is not a living, physical thing. It's an understanding. But you just said that we shouldn't reduce the DO to "giving" people the choice of good vs. evil. If he's a concept, an understanding, then that's EXACTLY what it's reduced to.

    What you're saying is, basically, that a starving man about to die will not consider stealing food in order to survive, because the DO doesn't exist. And that makes sense to you? And I don't want to hear "without the DO no one will starv" explanations. It's a theoretical question. You're saying people will die, simply because they can't consider taking food that doesn't belong to them? I find that hard to understand, and I doubt that's what RJ had intended. It's extreme. Not impossible, it just sounds unlikely to me.

    I understood the point, it simply makes little sense to me.
    Also, again - the DO is not *evil*, since we know that he's a physical being. Rand held him in his hand. It may have been a metaphore, a way for Rand to understand what he's doing, but how does one hold a concept in one's hand? Does he delete a concept from everyone's mind? That makes NO SENSE!

    That's only true if you accept your explanation above, which I already showed you I do not accept, on the basis that it makes no sense.

    Not only am I not saying that's remotly the same, I'm also saying that many people that live in the light still have emotions that could be considered evil. Do you think all killers are dark friends? Did no one kill out of ambition? Love? Think about Abu Dar and all the duals if you want to understand my point.

    Not only do we have no reason to assume that the pattern just "showed the truth," we know for a fact that's not the case. First of all, not all those possible realities can be the future, which means for sure some of them are "lies," in the sense that they are possibilities imagined by Rand and the DO, not an accurate description of what will come to pass should certain things happen.
    Secondly, we are told by Rand himself, in a quote I already brought in this thread, that this reality is how HE SEES the world without the DO, not the way the world would be without him. Rand, I agree, is in no condition there to know exactly how this works. He works instinctively, with no time to think, etc. Which means he could be wrong and those are infact accurate descriptions... But we have no reason to assume that, because of what I said before.
    You assume, basically, that Rand and the DO create a future pattern, but the pattern itself shows them the result of the choices they created in the pattern they wove... That's a HUGE assumption to make, with no basis. It's a theory. Could be true. Could be false. It's an "if". If it works this way, then sure, you're right. If it doesn't then you're wrong. It's an assumption. And just like you choose to assume your assumption is true, I choose to believe that mine is. It's all theory in the end, 'till we get some more information about this "choice" idea that popped out in the last book. I hope there is word on that in the encyclopedia that's being written now.