What do you think about the "Impossible Pipe"? the implication of this ability that Rand seems to have manifested seem to be far reaching... Theories? (Also do you think the ending is a cop-out)
*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion
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Ibon Caseï
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What do you mean "impossible pipe"???
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- #3
I know that I marked this thread as having spoilers, but since the book isn't officially out yet I was trying to keep it to a minimum....
I was referring to how in the last few paragraphs of AMoL, Rand lights his pipe without using the One Power.
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- #4
Okay, so as far as I can tell these are the relevant facts:
My theory is this:
By spending time as a being outside of the bounds of the Pattern (universe) Rand became more than simply a Thread in the Pattern. I think that he has manifested himself as a Thread, but still (at some level) exists outside of the Pattern and can therefore influence reality itself. (I'm not sure if this is better than or worse then being able to use the One Power) and since the only example we have to go by is him lighting his pipe, the extent of his influence on reality is unknown.
Robert Jordan has been quoted saying that one of the first things he had fully laid out was the ending of the WoT, so I don't think that the ending is a cop-out especially since it builds on facts from previous books (such as the mental link between Rand and Moridin)
Also If Rand returned to Moridin's body once he sealed the Dark One, was it Rand or Moridin that carried the other body out of the cavern?
And now I'm just rambling on like a crazy person... what are your thoughts?
- Rand created a new prison for the Dark One using Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power
- Rand existed as a being outside of the Pattern for the duration of his battle with the Dark One
- Rand and Moridin were mentally connected when their balefire met at Shaidar Logoth
- After creating the new prison, Rand returned to Moridin's body while Moridin returned to Rand's
- Rand in his new body cannot channel (it's not written as a loss as if severed, it's written as if he's been transformed into a normal person)
- Rand lit his pipe while riding away without using the One Power or True Power
My theory is this:
By spending time as a being outside of the bounds of the Pattern (universe) Rand became more than simply a Thread in the Pattern. I think that he has manifested himself as a Thread, but still (at some level) exists outside of the Pattern and can therefore influence reality itself. (I'm not sure if this is better than or worse then being able to use the One Power) and since the only example we have to go by is him lighting his pipe, the extent of his influence on reality is unknown.
Robert Jordan has been quoted saying that one of the first things he had fully laid out was the ending of the WoT, so I don't think that the ending is a cop-out especially since it builds on facts from previous books (such as the mental link between Rand and Moridin)
Also If Rand returned to Moridin's body once he sealed the Dark One, was it Rand or Moridin that carried the other body out of the cavern?
And now I'm just rambling on like a crazy person... what are your thoughts?
Sorcha Al'Verdan
Aes Sedai
Maybe they just meant he grabbed a match? :P
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- #6
I got a kick out of that :P
Alas, the text states that he willed it alight without a match... or what was Aludra's name for them? Strikers? I can't remember...
P.S. Awesome sig!
Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
If you have not read the book to the end, STOP READING NOW!!!
Honestly, I found the ending lacking greatly... Or, if you will, that the DO has won, though I find that less likely. What a Mass Effect 3 debuckle this is.
We, as readers, seem to have information the characters don't have, though I expected Rand should have known it, with all of his AoL knowledge.
I'll start with the simplest thing: while it was perdictable as hell, I still hoped the ending would somehow surprise me.
It didn't, and "choice" between good and evil, the battle in every human heart (supposedly) was at the center of the conflict. How... Matrix: revolution style...
But even if that wouldn't have bothered me much, Rand should have still known to kill the DO for good. But the father of lied won again, spinning his greatest lie at Rand - that he is somehow responsible for having a choice at all.
The Great White Book clearly states that the "choice" has nothing to do with him. He simply ENHANCES the negative already in people. In other word's the DO isn't responsible for the choice at all. If anything, he's taking the choice away by pushing people to make one choice rather then the other, or at least making the choice harder. At any case, he's twisting the choice people have.
Rand had the opportunity to kill him, but he believed the DO is indeed the choice people make, but he was wrong.
So, as far as I am concerned, the ending was simply lacking. If I wanted to save the ending somehow and pull an indoctrination theory type save, I'd say that Rand simply lost. The DO has won again, preventing his own destruction by making Rand believe that the choice is between Shadow and Light, and for that that he was needed. He isn't.
Honestly, I found the ending lacking greatly... Or, if you will, that the DO has won, though I find that less likely. What a Mass Effect 3 debuckle this is.
We, as readers, seem to have information the characters don't have, though I expected Rand should have known it, with all of his AoL knowledge.
I'll start with the simplest thing: while it was perdictable as hell, I still hoped the ending would somehow surprise me.
It didn't, and "choice" between good and evil, the battle in every human heart (supposedly) was at the center of the conflict. How... Matrix: revolution style...
But even if that wouldn't have bothered me much, Rand should have still known to kill the DO for good. But the father of lied won again, spinning his greatest lie at Rand - that he is somehow responsible for having a choice at all.
The Great White Book clearly states that the "choice" has nothing to do with him. He simply ENHANCES the negative already in people. In other word's the DO isn't responsible for the choice at all. If anything, he's taking the choice away by pushing people to make one choice rather then the other, or at least making the choice harder. At any case, he's twisting the choice people have.
Rand had the opportunity to kill him, but he believed the DO is indeed the choice people make, but he was wrong.
So, as far as I am concerned, the ending was simply lacking. If I wanted to save the ending somehow and pull an indoctrination theory type save, I'd say that Rand simply lost. The DO has won again, preventing his own destruction by making Rand believe that the choice is between Shadow and Light, and for that that he was needed. He isn't.
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- #8
I didn't like that, but the wheel has turned countless times before, so there has to be some reason why none of the previous Dragons killed the Dark One. It fits with much theology, that for there to be free will, there must be evil, and I suppose that the Dark One can be considered the embodiment of evil, so perhaps killing him kills evil? He is locked away (and presumably, no one left with the knowledge to try and free him), so I don't really see why his continued existence is beneficial, as he can have no influence
Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
Toral - I couldn't agree more.
I like my own interpretation of the ending, that the DO basically keeps himself alive by making the dragons think he is needed as the evil of the world, when in fact he's not needed at all. But again, that's just an interpretation.
I like my own interpretation of the ending, that the DO basically keeps himself alive by making the dragons think he is needed as the evil of the world, when in fact he's not needed at all. But again, that's just an interpretation.
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- #10
I actually completely understood why Rand didn't kill the Dark One, and it didn't bother me at all. 
Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
Why didn't he kill him?
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- #12
For the same reason that the world created in the Matrix was not a beautiful utopia. Humans would not be human if they did not have facets of good and bad. It's just.....I don't know how to explain it. There has to be balance, or humans would cease to progress as a race because they would have no reason to try to improve. The most progressive points in our history occurred when facing great conflict, y'know? By "Killing" that conflict, he would be dooming the human race to eventual extinction no matter what.
That's not the Dark One being an ass, that's just a fact of life.
That's not the Dark One being an ass, that's just a fact of life.
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It's the age old question: How can you know what "light" is if you've never seen "dark?"
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- #14
You probably have to accept that kind of theology for it to make sense
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- #15
I thought the alternate reality did that quite well. To remove the Dark One would in effect be Turning everyone to the Light.
Tazren Talamar
Gaidin
The Big White Book is also written as from the perspective of a contemporary scholar during ACoS. It's by no means an absolute truth. I daresay Rand, at the end of AMoL, had a better understanding of the Dark One and how it's related to the world, than anybody else.
I'm with Ninya on this. I understood completely why Rand didn't kill the Dark One. It was mentioned that the Dark One wasn't so much an evil entity, as a force of the universe. To remove evil, then, would be to Turn everyone to good. The flawed eutopia.
It wasn't the perfect ending I could've imagined. Honestly, I don't know what would've been perfect. The way it feels just now, minutes after finishing the book ... I feel that the ending was enough. Given all the speculations, all the theories, all the expectations ... that is more than I had hoped for.
Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
It does? :scratch
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- #18
Yep! It is written as if someone from the Third Age was sharing information. It is not and never has been a completely reliable source of information about Randland. :P
Hammar O'Justice
Citizen
It was explicitly confirmed to me by Team Jordan that the forthcoming Encyclopedia will the first time we receive objectively true information that contradicts information held to be The Truth by Randlanders as of the end of Towers of Midnight.
Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
Interesting... But my theory still stands strong. If the information in the Big White Book is accurate, then it's true for sure. If it's not accurate, there are still problems with the DO TAKING people's choice, not giving them one. The turning of channelers is the extreme example, of course, but it serves as an example non the less.